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What is the Point?

Wake

Wake

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Here I am again dealing with partisans from all sides. Every day we see people assuming what the truth is, when no one seems to know the truth. It's just so damned frustrating, isn't it?

I figure I could put my energy into being some learned conservative or liberal, but what's the point? To be strictly on one side of the coin is to not be able to see the other side of the same coin. Every day we see atheists and the religious go at it. They just won't stop. I feel old beyond my years seeing this perpetual battle of beliefs. It just seems like it'll never end and that no matter how much you know it'll never be enough. It just feels that you'll never find out exactly what the truth is.

So, what do we do people? Do we just believe ONLY in the things our five senses can discern? If so then emotions go out the door, right? All religion and all sense of morals cease to exist. Right and wrong no longer exist. Murdering a man no longer becaomes wrong, just as when some other animal kills an animal is not wrong.

It's just so frustrating to see them same battles over and over and over again. Do we believe in God or gods? Do we consider old, religious traditions, or do we mold our religion according to what society thinks?

How do we discern what really is right for society? Do we only consider damages, morals be damned?

Sometimes I feel like screaming because we will never have complete and utter certainty on what the truth is.

Take for example the "scientifically-minded," who tend to deny God and traditional morals. Do you know what I find to be incredibly funny? They still believe in morals. It's ridiculous because, based on what our senses perceive, there are absolutely no such things as morals. Kill every human and you'll find everything coceptual comes to an utter, screeching halt. Think about it. Without humans what happens to the concept of "joy?" Let's go further. Take all life out of the equation. Now we know for sure "joy" doesn't exist. Joy cannot exist without humans. Without any life, if we are to assume other forms of life besides humans experience joy.

You know what, let's focus on humans for a bit. What in the bloody hell is it to be "human?" Is that just another cliche word devoid of meaning? Either nothing humans do entails "being human," or ******* everything humans do can be considered "being human." Are any of you familiar with the show titled "Dexter?" Dexter is a human being devoid of emotions. He kills people he perveives to be immoral. Dexter kills. Dexter is a human. Humans kill. To kill is human. To kill and murder is a facet of being human. You cannot cherry-pick what people must be like to "be human," and ignore other elements you "don't like."

Animals kill as well. Humans are supposedly animals.

There is no such thing as humanity. There is merely "being a human." Humans can do many, many things. Any of those things is being human.

It's just frustrating. How are you to live your life? How do you construct an ideology where all doubt is completely removed? Don't tell me being a progressive is an example. That's a ******* joke. A wannabe of those who seek the truth. Progressives still have "morals," "beliefs," and other hypothetical, man-made constructs. They only dance on the planks of past beliefs and thoughts.

To find the truth are we to live like animals? Since when do ants have morals? Sure, ants have their own constructs, but they have, as far as I can tell, no emotions, no morals, no beliefs. Like animals, they merely do what they can to survive.

*Sigh*

Ever been fed-up with all of the biased opinions and hackery, logical fallacies and appeals to emotion, etc, etc? Yeah, I feel that. How are you ever going to find the truth when almost everyone takes part in "coming up" with beliefs, morals, biases, etc?

What is the point of it all?

All we can do is speculate on the voids of knowledge, it seems.
 
um....this and many other debate sites, are here for entertainment purposes.

that means, we come here for fun. sure, sometimes you educate a guy or two...but if you don't, at least you tried.

but still, this is supposed to be enjoyable. if you aren't enjoying the ride because you feel its unproductive, well......you know what to do.
 
There is no point.

There can never be truth in all things.

The Universe has no meaning.

The only meaning you will find is within yourself as an individual. You are here for a very hort period of time and then you will be dead forever. You decide what you are and if you follow your path, you will have time of meaningfulness. It may be because you are extremely honest, you may be extremely kind, you may be a murderer savoring your last kill, maybe because you finally became a Billionaire, when you stop and help a stranger just to be nice - only YOU can decide what you want to be. Many of you will decide to be utter poopholes and others will choose righteousness and nobility.:3oops:

There is no collective definition of "humanity". You'll never convince me that we've ever had a "human" politician. My definition is me. I'm the only real human on this planet. Sure, some of you come close or are even better at it than I am.
 
Wake said:
Here I am again dealing with partisans from all sides. Every day we see people assuming what the truth is, when no one seems to know the truth. It's just so damned frustrating, isn't it?

I figure I could put my energy into being some learned conservative or liberal, but what's the point? To be strictly on one side of the coin is to not be able to see the other side of the same coin. Every day we see atheists and the religious go at it. They just won't stop. I feel old beyond my years seeing this perpetual battle of beliefs. It just seems like it'll never end and that no matter how much you know it'll never be enough. It just feels that you'll never find out exactly what the truth is.

So, what do we do people? Do we just believe ONLY in the things our five senses can discern? If so then emotions go out the door, right? All religion and all sense of morals cease to exist. Right and wrong no longer exist. Murdering a man no longer becaomes wrong, just as when some other animal kills an animal is not wrong.

It's just so frustrating to see them same battles over and over and over again. Do we believe in God or gods? Do we consider old, religious traditions, or do we mold our religion according to what society thinks?

How do we discern what really is right for society? Do we only consider damages, morals be damned?

Sometimes I feel like screaming because we will never have complete and utter certainty on what the truth is.

Take for example the "scientifically-minded," who tend to deny God and traditional morals. Do you know what I find to be incredibly funny? They still believe in morals. It's ridiculous because, based on what our senses perceive, there are absolutely no such things as morals. Kill every human and you'll find everything coceptual comes to an utter, screeching halt. Think about it. Without humans what happens to the concept of "joy?" Let's go further. Take all life out of the equation. Now we know for sure "joy" doesn't exist. Joy cannot exist without humans. Without any life, if we are to assume other forms of life besides humans experience joy.

You know what, let's focus on humans for a bit. What in the bloody hell is it to be "human?" Is that just another cliche word devoid of meaning? Either nothing humans do entails "being human," or ******* everything humans do can be considered "being human." Are any of you familiar with the show titled "Dexter?" Dexter is a human being devoid of emotions. He kills people he perveives to be immoral. Dexter kills. Dexter is a human. Humans kill. To kill is human. To kill and murder is a facet of being human. You cannot cherry-pick what people must be like to "be human," and ignore other elements you "don't like."

Animals kill as well. Humans are supposedly animals.

There is no such thing as humanity. There is merely "being a human." Humans can do many, many things. Any of those things is being human.

It's just frustrating. How are you to live your life? How do you construct an ideology where all doubt is completely removed? Don't tell me being a progressive is an example. That's a ******* joke. A wannabe of those who seek the truth. Progressives still have "morals," "beliefs," and other hypothetical, man-made constructs. They only dance on the planks of past beliefs and thoughts.

To find the truth are we to live like animals? Since when do ants have morals? Sure, ants have their own constructs, but they have, as far as I can tell, no emotions, no morals, no beliefs. Like animals, they merely do what they can to survive.

*Sigh*

Ever been fed-up with all of the biased opinions and hackery, logical fallacies and appeals to emotion, etc, etc? Yeah, I feel that. How are you ever going to find the truth when almost everyone takes part in "coming up" with beliefs, morals, biases, etc?

What is the point of it all?

All we can do is speculate on the voids of knowledge, it seems.
Click to expand...


You only need to get the first Truth right and everything else is for fun. It's the one greatest commandment that Jesus said to follow, "Love your life (God) with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. And love your neighbor as yourself."
 
Take for example the "scientifically-minded," who tend to deny God and traditional morals. Do you know what I find to be incredibly funny? They still believe in morals. It's ridiculous because, based on what our senses perceive, there are absolutely no such things as morals.
Click to expand...

Are you implying that you cannot have a sense of "wrong" and "right" and a "moral compass" without believing in god(s)? Or that morality is contingent upon a religion which declares existence of god(s)? Humanity and civilizations predate religious indoctrination and exist now without it, though perhaps on a small scale.
 
tessaesque said:
Are you implying that you cannot have a sense of "wrong" and "right" and a "moral compass" without believing in god(s)? Or that morality is contingent upon a religion which declares existence of god(s)? Humanity and civilizations predate religious indoctrination and exist now without it, though perhaps on a small scale.
Click to expand...

I never said you must have a religion to have morals.

I am saying it is hilarious how those scientifically-minded who rebuke and ridicule the religious for their beliefs and morals...

...grasp strongly to their own beliefs and morals.

I think the path to the "truth" would be to drop ALL morals, beliefs, emotions, and biases.
 
Wake said:
I never said you must have a religion to have morals.

I am saying it is hilarious how those scientifically-minded who rebuke and ridicule the religious for their beliefs and morals...

...grasp strongly to their own beliefs and morals.

I think the path to the "truth" would be to drop ALL morals, beliefs, emotions, and biases.
Click to expand...

That didn't come through, and I don't really think atheists rebuke people for having morals. I think they rebuke the premise for those morals and harm caused by them in defense of their religion. I.E., an atheist may argue against a moral opposition to gay marriage on the premise that trying to kiss god's ass is less significant than loving/respecting your fellow man.
 
tessaesque said:
That didn't come through, and I don't really think atheists rebuke people for having morals. I think they rebuke the premise for those morals and harm caused by them in defense of their religion. I.E., an atheist may argue against a moral opposition to gay marriage on the premise that trying to kiss god's ass is less significant than loving/respecting your fellow man.
Click to expand...

Whatever the case, this stance I am thinking of adopting involves no God.

According to this stance, no morals exist. Beliefs are nothing. They don't matter. They are just thoughts that the animals known as "human" come up with.

Those seculars who "attack [whatever word you want to use]" Christians for their morals and beliefs, have their own morals and beliefs.

If you get rid of all humans...

...all of these man-made concepts, these hypothetical things we make based on our beliefs, cease to be.

What if there is no such thing as evil? What if evil is merely being frighteningly intelligent? Look at Dexter for example. He'd undoubtedly be considered by some, yet he's really just devoid of emotion, and uses his brain to get rid of problems.
 
Wake said:
Whatever the case, this stance I am thinking of adopting involves no God.

According to this stance, no morals exist. Beliefs are nothing. They don't matter. They are just thoughts that the animals known as "human" come up with.

Those seculars who "attack [whatever word you want to use]" Christians for their morals and beliefs, have their own morals and beliefs.

If you get rid of all humans...

...all of these man-made concepts, these hypothetical things we make based on our beliefs, cease to be.

What if there is no such thing as evil? What if evil is merely being frighteningly intelligent? Look at Dexter for example. He'd undoubtedly be considered by some, yet he's really just devoid of emotion, and uses his brain to get rid of problems.
Click to expand...

Essentially you're describing a society of sociopaths or robots. I'd rather have irrationality than ice, IMO.
 
tessaesque said:
Essentially you're describing a society of sociopaths or robots. I'd rather have irrationality than ice, IMO.
Click to expand...

Society is built upon deceit. People seem to have to deceive, "camoflauge," in order to survive in it. That sort of camoflauge reminds me of the animals that use camoflauge to survive.

What would happen if every single human in existence kept absolutely no secrets? You would see monsters and demons.
 
Wake said:
...What would happen if every single human in existence kept absolutely no secrets? You would see monsters and demons.
Click to expand...

but we ALL know that monsters & demons do not exist, as such ideas are totally irrational & illogical.
 
Wake said:
Society is built upon deceit. People seem to have to deceive, "camoflauge," in order to survive in it. That sort of camoflauge reminds me of the animals that use camoflauge to survive.

What would happen if every single human in existence kept absolutely no secrets? You would see monsters and demons.
Click to expand...

I dunno. I don't have secrets. I don't deceive people....unless you consider, "Oh yeah, that top looks AWESOME!" to be negatively deceptive. I think you're exaggerating the effects of eradicating dishonesty. Ever see "The Invention of Lying"? I imagine life would be rather like that. Very matter of fact, very boring.
 
tessaesque said:
I dunno. I don't have secrets. I don't deceive people....unless you consider, "Oh yeah, that top looks AWESOME!" to be negatively deceptive. I think you're exaggerating the effects of eradicating dishonesty. Ever see "The Invention of Lying"? I imagine life would be rather like that. Very matter of fact, very boring.
Click to expand...

I doubt you have absolutely no secrets. That's not the point I am trying to make.

Everyone has deep secrets. If people didn't lie I am sure we'd see sompletely completely different people.

It just seems that there's no point in having beliefs. If things are subjective, like God, they should be deemed non-existant.

An orange or apple is not subjective.

Good and evil are.

I'm just frustrated with what my next steps should be. Should one become learned on things politicially right? How about the political left? It just seems that no matter how much you know, no matter what belief you have, no matter what you think, you'll never be right.

Society seems to be made up of people that have similar beliefs and don't want to be hurt. Thus, they gain control of the masses... and make laws based on their own morals and beliefs to protect themselves.
 
Wake said:
I doubt you have absolutely no secrets. That's not the point I am trying to make.

Everyone has deep secrets. If people didn't lie I am sure we'd see sompletely completely different people.

It just seems that there's no point in having beliefs. If things are subjective, like God, they should be deemed non-existant.

An orange or apple is not subjective.

Good and evil are.

I'm just frustrated with what my next steps should be. Should one become learned on things politicially right? How about the political left? It just seems that no matter how much you know, no matter what belief you have, no matter what you think, you'll never be right.

Society seems to be made up of people that have similar beliefs and don't want to be hurt. Thus, they gain control of the masses... and make laws based on their own morals and beliefs to protect themselves.
Click to expand...

You're really mixing up a lot of separate areas of thought here.

As for secrets, no. To me, a secret is something you intentionally hide from people in order to protect yourself or a third party. I don't have anything like that, so I have no secrets.
 
tessaesque said:
(1) You're really mixing up a lot of separate areas of thought here.

(2) As for secrets, no. To me, a secret is something you intentionally hide from people in order to protect yourself or a third party. I don't have anything like that, so I have no secrets.
Click to expand...

(1) That's what people do.

(2) So if I were to ask you very sensitive questions, that not even your parent would know, you'd answer honestly? It's not something I would ask, and I highly doubt you would answer. Everyone keeps secrets. People don't just disclose every single fiber of their being.

Deceit and secrets are only a part of the OP.

Just dealing with every single ideologue, whether atheistic or religious, gay or straight, etc, is exhausting.

If only politics could be as straightforward as baking..
 
Wake said:
(1) That's what people do.

(2) So if I were to ask you very sensitive questions, that not even your parent would know, you'd answer honestly? It's not something I would ask, and I highly doubt you would answer. Everyone keeps secrets. People don't just disclose every single fiber of their being.

Deceit and secrets are only a part of the OP.

Just dealing with every single ideologue, whether atheistic or religious, gay or straight, etc, is exhausting.

If only politics could be as straightforward as baking..
Click to expand...

Ask me something. As long as it doesn't violate forum rules.
 
tessaesque said:
Ask me something. As long as it doesn't violate forum rules.
Click to expand...

Tbh it's none of my business, and that's not what we're discussing in the OP.

Regarding the OP, I'll ask you questions if it's alright with you.

What do you think the truth is?

At times I just feel like screaming because we will never comes across absolute certainity. Not even science itself is absolute. At times, including now, I just feel like throwing my hands up in the air and quitting the arena of speculation and beliefs. Maybe get into fishing or painting.. I put too much time on dwelling on things out of my control. No matter what I think on any political issue it'll probably never comes true.
 
Wake said:
Tbh it's none of my business, and that's not what we're discussing in the OP.

Regarding the OP, I'll ask you questions if it's alright with you.

What do you think the truth is?

At times I just feel like screaming because we will never comes across absolute certainity. Not even science itself is absolute. At times, including now, I just feel like throwing my hands up in the air and quitting the arena of speculation and beliefs. Maybe get into fishing or painting.. I put too much time on dwelling on things out of my control. No matter what I think on any political issue it'll probably never comes true.
Click to expand...

Truth is subjective. Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for. Only in concrete matters can truth be consider an absolute (i.e. I am 5'5" tall).
 
tessaesque said:
Truth is subjective. Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for. Only in concrete matters can truth be consider an absolute (i.e. I am 5'5" tall).
Click to expand...

That is what I'm trying to move towards, if only to clear my mind..

Only what is discernable by the five senses shold be considered the truth.

Obviously, that is an insanely unpopular view, since all beliefs and morals go out the window.
 
tessaesque said:
Truth is subjective. Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for. Only in concrete matters can truth be consider an absolute (i.e. I am 5'5" tall).
Click to expand...

I don't see how truth is subjective.

If we gauge that fire is hot, how is that untrue?

We know that things contract when they are cold. That is also true, etc.
 
Wake said:
I don't see how truth is subjective.

If we gauge that fire is hot, how is that untrue?

We know that things contract when they are cold. That is also true, etc.
Click to expand...

You were discussing truth in political ideology, were you not? Rarely is ideology concrete.
 
tessaesque said:
You were discussing truth in political ideology, were you not? Rarely is ideology concrete.
Click to expand...

And that is what frustrates me, because all of these partisans are so sure, yet there is hardly any truth at all in all of ideology.
 
Wake said:
...At times I just feel like screaming because we will never comes across absolute certainity. Not even science itself is absolute. At times, including now, I just feel like throwing my hands up in the air and quitting the arena of speculation and beliefs. Maybe get into fishing or painting...
Click to expand...

well, how's your baking business going? you could put more energy into that.
 
Wake said:
I don't see how truth is subjective.

If we gauge that fire is hot, how is that untrue?

We know that things contract when they are cold. That is also true, etc.
Click to expand...

Contemplating...

...you are anxious.

Why? The simple answer is get off your ass and do something...

...but it's not that simple.

I want you to feel that anxiety. Kind of like feeling an itch. Relax. Don't respond. The moment. The moment. The moment.

Don't anticipate. Don't speculate. If anxiety fades, don't perpetuate.

Do not consider possibilities. There is only the moment. No questions. No expectations. Only the moment.

Getting caught in the moment could take a very long time. This is what life is about though. Feeling the moment.

We invest in the future, but ultimately, that investment is about consuming moments, instants, split-seconds.

This is why people lie. They lie to see you respond. They give deliberately wrong answers to see you struggle. It lets them feel confident that they can control you.

It lets them turn you into a robot. It lets them be lazy because you'll seek out the truth for them.

It is not your job to be someone else's b*tch. Do not come here looking for answers. Come here looking for fun.

The tease is the point. If you cannot tease or enjoy being teased, then watch. Go back in archives and read. You don't have to recreate history.
 
Wake said:
Society is built upon deceit. People seem to have to deceive, "camoflauge," in order to survive in it. That sort of camoflauge reminds me of the animals that use camoflauge to survive.

What would happen if every single human in existence kept absolutely no secrets? You would see monsters and demons.
Click to expand...

Humans are animals. We are also mammals, and primates.
 
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