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Vietnamese Immigration...a model?

truthatallcost said:
You're admitting that the vetting process is useless then
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:roll:


I have. We're spending a lot of money to vet refugees who are then going to cost us a lot of money by draining social programs for many years. But you'll get to feel warm and fuzzy so that's really what's important.
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This has nothing to do with feeling "warm and fuzzy." It's about a social obligation to help people who, to no small extent, are suffering because of the choices of our government.


NPR, which supports the Syrian refugees, even admits....
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...that the process is difficult, in what can charitably be described as a rather thin article on the topic. Which is why it focuses on people who have relatives in the US, takes up to 2 years, and involves multiple agencies.

But thanks for the cherry picking, I love pitted fruits.


Yet Muslim refugees are entirely dependent on programs while the Vietnamese are less so. Why? Because Vietnamese refugees make better Americans than Muslims from the Mideast? Ok if you say so.
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I said nothing of the sort, nor do I see any reason to believe your claims here. It's fairly evident that the first wave of Vietnamese refugees were just as dependent on charity and services when they first came to the US, as Syrians are today.


Review Muslims usage of welfare programs in France please. They are never going to succeed on the same level that Asians have.
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Thanks for the prejudicial nonsense.

Speaking of prejudicial nonsense, one reason why Muslims have had a difficult time in France is because of, wait for it.... racism against Muslims, mostly connected to the history of colonization, imperialism, abuse and fight for independence between the French and Muslim nations (like Algeria). Long story short: Many of the French, even in Paris, despise the Muslims that they used to oppress and exploit in a colonial system, and use systems like subsidized housing to cordon them off in ghettos. As long as the live in La Haine, the French don't have to care about abusive police, endemic poverty, poor schools, or civil rights. I.e. it is not easy to succeed when a nation has its boot in your face.

Meanwhile, in the US, anti-Muslim sentiment has always existed to some extent, but only really increased in recent years. Those of us who live near or in Muslim immigrant communities know for a fact that they do open and run their own businesses, including shops and services. Those of us who live near or in poor neighborhoods also know that the safety net in the US has been shredded, and

There may be some cultural differences, as well as different levels of discrimination, that result in Muslim immigrants being "less successful" than some members of some Asian immigrant communities. That's no excuse to make ignorant declarations about intrinsic qualities of the members of an entire community.



60,000 Americans died in the Vietnam war. I can well understand returning servicemen being apprehensive about so many Vietnamese coming to live amongst them. However, their fears weren't validated.

How long until the next Muslim attack in the United States? We just had one yesterday so we're about due for another, don't you think?
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Good grief

News flash! You're almost as likely to get hit by lightning while riding a shark than to be the victim of a terrorist attack.

In 2015:
615,000 died from heart disease
591,00 were killed by cancer
133,000 by stroke
76,000 by diabetes
46,000 suicides
475 killed in mass shootings
20 killed in terrorist attacks in the US (including the San Bernadio attack, which was a lone wolf and not a Syrian war refugee)
43 people were killed by toddlers accidentally firing guns

And of course, an ISIS agent could pretty easily just get a passport in Egypt or Jordan, and fly right into the US on a tourist visa.

So go ahead, tell me again that our biggest fear should be Syrian war refugees who are insufficiently screened. I could use a laugh.
 
MaggieD said:
My point is that they came LEGALLY, that it took them seven years of trying and five years residency to become citizens. And that they are proud of their new home. They didn't sneak across the border and then hold demonstrations against the very country they supposedly want to live in demanding college tuition assistance and amnesty for their crime.
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They *couldnt* cross the border. The US has no border with VietNam and the US gave (and financed) a path to citizenship for them. If they were able to enter the US illegally I have no doubt they would have, as many Vietnamese (including this family) have illegally travelled to other countries, entered the US illegally

They already had a little baby girl, so, with her, they did as custom dictated...they went to Indonesia to a refugee camp. There, they hoped to be interviewed and allowed to enter Indonesia
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They went to Indonesia as refugees even though they did not qualify as refugees. It is obvious that, like nearly every other immigrant from poor nations, they were willing to explore every possibility of escape regardless of legality. Other than the family history of having worked for the USG, there is nothing exceptional about this family. They are a typical immigrant family
 
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MaggieD said:
Just got back from the nail salon. The owners are a husband and wife team from Vietnam. I'd guess they're late 30s or so, three children. We got to talking about how they ended up in Chicago. Sometimes, they're a little hard to understand, but I think I pretty much got it.

Before 1990, people whose families had anything to do with aiding Americans during the Vietnam War were heavily discriminated against. Both of their fathers were sent to jail...his dad lost a leg from a mine. He was jailed for 13 years. His grandfather went to jail for a year as did HER father and grandfather. Because of their parents' history, all of their children were basically denied any education past grade school.

Both of their families pushed them to leave the country and go to America. They already had a little baby girl, so, with her, they did as custom dictated...they went to Indonesia to a refugee camp. There, they hoped to be interviewed and allowed to enter Indonesia where, from there, they could try to gain legal entry into the United States.

After five years, she took her now 5-year-old and went home. Her husband stayed one more hopeful year, then he went home to join her. What they realized was that without bribery money, they would never be allowed entry into Indonesia. They both got jobs...she was a caregiver. He worked for Vietnam's largest show manufacturer. They appealed as a family to the American Embassy.

After a few years, the American Embassy contacted them and began a series of interviews asking them things about their families' histories, why they wanted to immigrate, how they would support themselves. At every turn, they were frightened they would answer in a way that would deny them entry into the United States. A year or so after the multiple interviews started, they were offered the loan of plane fare for the three of them . . . To Chicago. . . and a small stipend to help them get on their feet. They were sooo relieved and grateful.

In a year, they got their green cards. Four years later they were given the opportunity to become citizens after lengthy classes and being able to speak, read and Rudimentarily write English. Their daughter gained her citizenship thru her mom. Their other two children were born here.

Theyve paid back the loans they received, started their own business, and their oldest daughter is in her first year of college. She and her husband both got GEDs.

This is the path to citizenship legal immigrants must follow. Why would we EVER allow illegals anything less? Lovely people with a strength and determination we can hardly imagine. They left their families, came to a strange place, followed the rules and have made their family successful. All the while sooo HAPPY to be here.

Frankly, I don't know anyone who's any stronger...

Thoughts?
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I'm friends with several Cambodian refugees. Pretty much the same story. All have achieved citizenship. All appreciate it.

They also were loaned airfare, not given it. When did that stop?
 
Visbek said:
What the what?

You said absolutely nothing about Mexico. (You also don't understand, apparently, that most new immigrants coming to the US are in fact coming from... wait for it... Asia.) You told us about people who were refugees from the Vietnam war, who were subjected to a screening process and came into the US.

Further, pretty much everyone who immigrates (legally) to the US has the same safety net eligibility as your Vietnamese friends. In fact, someone immigrating today has access to a significantly weaker safety net, and fewer benefits, than someone did in 1990.


Anyway.

It just doesn't make sense to say "these people played by the rules, therefore everyone should play by the rules." Aside from the fact that it blatantly ignores that we are 11 million undocumented immigrants past the point of simple platitudes, it begs the question by presuming the limits we put on immigrants are at appropriate numbers in the first place.

It also blatantly ignores that the last attempt at immigration reform explicitly put those undocumented immigrants at the end of the line.

And of course, it ignores how many of those undocumented immigrants work their fingers to the bone, are fleeing dire (sometimes deadly) conditions in their home nations, receive few benefits, and so on.
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Why should many be forced to play by the rules, yet many more simply swim the river, and you want the illegals to be placed at the front of the line?

The line for illegals should start in their home country. Not in California.
 
MaggieD said:
Just got back from the nail salon. The owners are a husband and wife team from Vietnam. I'd guess they're late 30s or so, three children. We got to talking about how they ended up in Chicago. Sometimes, they're a little hard to understand, but I think I pretty much got it.

Before 1990, people whose families had anything to do with aiding Americans during the Vietnam War were heavily discriminated against. Both of their fathers were sent to jail...his dad lost a leg from a mine. He was jailed for 13 years. His grandfather went to jail for a year as did HER father and grandfather. Because of their parents' history, all of their children were basically denied any education past grade school.

Both of their families pushed them to leave the country and go to America. They already had a little baby girl, so, with her, they did as custom dictated...they went to Indonesia to a refugee camp. There, they hoped to be interviewed and allowed to enter Indonesia where, from there, they could try to gain legal entry into the United States.

After five years, she took her now 5-year-old and went home. Her husband stayed one more hopeful year, then he went home to join her. What they realized was that without bribery money, they would never be allowed entry into Indonesia. They both got jobs...she was a caregiver. He worked for Vietnam's largest show manufacturer. They appealed as a family to the American Embassy.

After a few years, the American Embassy contacted them and began a series of interviews asking them things about their families' histories, why they wanted to immigrate, how they would support themselves. At every turn, they were frightened they would answer in a way that would deny them entry into the United States. A year or so after the multiple interviews started, they were offered the loan of plane fare for the three of them . . . To Chicago. . . and a small stipend to help them get on their feet. They were sooo relieved and grateful.

In a year, they got their green cards. Four years later they were given the opportunity to become citizens after lengthy classes and being able to speak, read and Rudimentarily write English. Their daughter gained her citizenship thru her mom. Their other two children were born here.

Theyve paid back the loans they received, started their own business, and their oldest daughter is in her first year of college. She and her husband both got GEDs.

This is the path to citizenship legal immigrants must follow. Why would we EVER allow illegals anything less? Lovely people with a strength and determination we can hardly imagine. They left their families, came to a strange place, followed the rules and have made their family successful. All the while sooo HAPPY to be here.

Frankly, I don't know anyone who's any stronger...

Thoughts?
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There are people in the ME that have helped and fought right along side our troops, do we owe them a home if they want it? As for the Vietnamese moving here, ask the shrimp fishermen along the Gulf, there were lots of issues for years before settling down.
 
sangha said:
They *couldnt* cross the border. The US has no border with VietNam and the US gave (and financed) a path to citizenship for them. If they were able to enter the US illegally I have no doubt they would have, as many Vietnamese (including this family) have illegally travelled to other countries, entered the US illegally

They went to Indonesia as refugees even though they did not qualify as refugees. It is obvious that, like nearly every other immigrant from poor nations, they were willing to explore every possibility of escape regardless of legality. Other than the family history of having worked for the USG, there is nothing exceptional about this family. They are a typical immigrant family
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You say there's nothing exceptional about this family. I say there is. The typical immigrant in this country right NOW is one that has snuck over the southern border, stolen a car to drive further north in-country, and spends his/her time hiding from authorities and working under the table sending money back to Mexico to support their family left behind.
 
jimbo said:
I'm friends with several Cambodian refugees. Pretty much the same story. All have achieved citizenship. All appreciate it.

They also were loaned airfare, not given it. When did that stop?
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I don't know that it did stop. Did you miss that this family was loaned that money..and paid it back?
 
Casper said:
There are people in the ME that have helped and fought right along side our troops, do we owe them a home if they want it? As for the Vietnamese moving here, ask the shrimp fishermen along the Gulf, there were lots of issues for years before settling down.
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If I remember the shrimp fishing story correctly, the locals tried to keep the Vietnamese unemployed by refusing them jobs, so the Vietnamese scrounged up enough money and bought and repaired old boats, the women made nets. When the locals dried up the used boat market, the Vietnamese built boats from scratch. Shut off the wholesale market, they created their own. It's an immigrant success story.

I have no objection to helping those who helped us, but that can be done with less possible damage to our country by careful vetting.
 
MaggieD said:
You say there's nothing exceptional about this family. I say there is. The typical immigrant in this country right NOW is one that has snuck over the southern border, stolen a car to drive further north in-country, and spends his/her time hiding from authorities and working under the table sending money back to Mexico to support their family left behind.
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I'm with you, Maggie. In my case I helped by putting together yard sale kitchens. Most arrived here with nothing. So a minimal effort on my part was greatly appreciated. That was years ago, but I still hear from some of the families. I know of none I helped that ever failed.
 
jimbo said:
If I remember the shrimp fishing story correctly, the locals tried to keep the Vietnamese unemployed by refusing them jobs, so the Vietnamese scrounged up enough money and bought and repaired old boats, the women made nets. When the locals dried up the used boat market, the Vietnamese built boats from scratch. Shut off the wholesale market, they created their own. It's an immigrant success story.

I have no objection to helping those who helped us, but that can be done with less possible damage to our country by careful vetting.
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You left out that the Vietnamese were not following the rules covering catches and that there is a limited amount of fishing along the coast. It eventually got worked out between the groups but I would not call it a model of how to come here in the right way.
 
Casper said:
You left out that the Vietnamese were not following the rules covering catches and that there is a limited amount of fishing along the coast. It eventually got worked out between the groups but I would not call it a model of how to come here in the right way.
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It's been years and I don't remember the whole story, so I'll neither agree or disagree with you.
 
MaggieD said:
I don't know that it did stop. Did you miss that this family was loaned that money..and paid it back?
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I was surprised that the recipients were required to pay it back. That was what happened with the refugees I helped. I doubt that is the current procedure.
 
MaggieD said:
Just got back from the nail salon. The owners are a husband and wife team from Vietnam. I'd guess they're late 30s or so, three children. We got to talking about how they ended up in Chicago. Sometimes, they're a little hard to understand, but I think I pretty much got it.

Before 1990, people whose families had anything to do with aiding Americans during the Vietnam War were heavily discriminated against. Both of their fathers were sent to jail...his dad lost a leg from a mine. He was jailed for 13 years. His grandfather went to jail for a year as did HER father and grandfather. Because of their parents' history, all of their children were basically denied any education past grade school.

Both of their families pushed them to leave the country and go to America. They already had a little baby girl, so, with her, they did as custom dictated...they went to Indonesia to a refugee camp. There, they hoped to be interviewed and allowed to enter Indonesia where, from there, they could try to gain legal entry into the United States.

After five years, she took her now 5-year-old and went home. Her husband stayed one more hopeful year, then he went home to join her. What they realized was that without bribery money, they would never be allowed entry into Indonesia. They both got jobs...she was a caregiver. He worked for Vietnam's largest show manufacturer. They appealed as a family to the American Embassy.

After a few years, the American Embassy contacted them and began a series of interviews asking them things about their families' histories, why they wanted to immigrate, how they would support themselves. At every turn, they were frightened they would answer in a way that would deny them entry into the United States. A year or so after the multiple interviews started, they were offered the loan of plane fare for the three of them . . . To Chicago. . . and a small stipend to help them get on their feet. They were sooo relieved and grateful.

In a year, they got their green cards. Four years later they were given the opportunity to become citizens after lengthy classes and being able to speak, read and Rudimentarily write English. Their daughter gained her citizenship thru her mom. Their other two children were born here.

Theyve paid back the loans they received, started their own business, and their oldest daughter is in her first year of college. She and her husband both got GEDs.

This is the path to citizenship legal immigrants must follow. Why would we EVER allow illegals anything less? Lovely people with a strength and determination we can hardly imagine. They left their families, came to a strange place, followed the rules and have made their family successful. All the while sooo HAPPY to be here.

Frankly, I don't know anyone who's any stronger...

Thoughts?
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Notice that throughout this process they never asked for handouts or took advantage of the system. They even started their own business, and through hard work have succeeded. Asians are overlooked as minorities because they don't fit the narrative of victimhood. My parents' story is very similar to that one above, which is why I have little sympathy or use for illegals.
 
MaggieD said:
Please provide a source for your claim in #1. Also keep in mind that the Vietnamese people haven't killed American Soldiers for 40 years. Neither have their clerics proclaimed death to Americans. Vietnamese people are immigrating to the United States every day so not sure what you mean.
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On top of Visbek's reply here's a video put on by 60 Minutes. Good piece.
Finding Refuge - CBS News
 
MaggieD said:
You say there's nothing exceptional about this family. I say there is. The typical immigrant in this country right NOW is one that has snuck over the southern border, stolen a car to drive further north in-country, and spends his/her time hiding from authorities and working under the table sending money back to Mexico to support their family left behind.
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Thats the "typical immigrant"? Anything to back that up or is that just how you see them?
 
Absentglare said:
Sorry, but what does that have to do with stealing cars and hiding from authorities?
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americanwoman said:
Okay but like the post above what does that have to do with anything you claimed the typical immigrant (no legal status mentioned) does?
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With more than half of immigrants being illegal, I say the illegals are typical.
 
MaggieD said:
With more than half of immigrants being illegal, I say the illegals are typical.
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I disagree.

"According to MPI estimates, about 7.8 million unauthorized immigrants present in the United States in the 2009-13 period (71 percent of the total unauthorized population) were born in Mexico and other Central America countries. About 1.5 million (14 percent) were from Asia; 690,000 (6 percent) from South America; 423,000 (4 percent) from Europe, Canada, or Oceania; 342,000 (3 percent) from Africa; and 260,000 (2 percent) from the Caribbean."

"The U.S. immigrant population stood at more than 42.4 million, or 13.3 percent, of the total U.S. population of 318.9 million in 2014, according to ACS data. Between 2013 and 2014, the foreign-born population increased by 1 million, or 2.5 percent."

Frequently Requested Statistics on Immigrants and Immigration in the United States | migrationpolicy.org

So even if we include illegal immigrants from Central American countries with Mexico, they still only account for 7.8 million of the 42.4 million, or less than one in five of total immigrants.
 
Absentglare said:
I disagree.

"According to MPI estimates, about 7.8 million unauthorized immigrants present in the United States in the 2009-13 period (71 percent of the total unauthorized population) were born in Mexico and other Central America countries. About 1.5 million (14 percent) were from Asia; 690,000 (6 percent) from South America; 423,000 (4 percent) from Europe, Canada, or Oceania; 342,000 (3 percent) from Africa; and 260,000 (2 percent) from the Caribbean."

"The U.S. immigrant population stood at more than 42.4 million, or 13.3 percent, of the total U.S. population of 318.9 million in 2014, according to ACS data. Between 2013 and 2014, the foreign-born population increased by 1 million, or 2.5 percent."

Frequently Requested Statistics on Immigrants and Immigration in the United States | migrationpolicy.org

So even if we include illegal immigrants from Central American countries with Mexico, they still only account for 7.8 million of the 42.4 million, or less than one in five of total immigrants.
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Good job. Thank you. I have to rethink my "typical" remark.
 
MaggieD said:
You say there's nothing exceptional about this family. I say there is. The typical immigrant in this country right NOW is one that has snuck over the southern border, stolen a car to drive further north in-country, and spends his/her time hiding from authorities and working under the table sending money back to Mexico to support their family left behind.
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That family you admire snuck into Indonesia. You know why they did that?

Because they could

The only reason they didnt sneak into the US on a boat is because they couldnt.
 
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