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Do you consider Muhammad Ali a hero?

JC Callender said:
Do you consider Ali a hero for his religious and political stances during the 60's and 70's? If so, why? And if not, why?
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Hero? No. But, I loved watching him box. He was and probably still is my favorite fighter of all time. A close second would be Tommy Hearns.
 
LadyMoonlight said:
Then they suffer the consequences - rape, death, slave labour, loss of family, home etc. - when their country was over-run due to an appeasement/pacifist stand I imagine.
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Were those things," rape, death, slave labour, loss of family, home etc." on the table during the Vietnam war? No, they weren't, so are we talking about mindless obedience?
 
Grand Mal said:
He was a hero in spite of "his religious and political stances during the 60's and 70's". Anyone with the courage to do what he did against Forman in Zaire is a hero.
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I liked his Frasier fights better.
 
Grand Mal said:
Were those things," rape, death, slave labour, loss of family, home etc." on the table during the Vietnam war? No, they weren't, so are we talking about mindless obedience?
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Did "rape, death, slave labor, loss of family, home, etc..." happen in the Soviet Union? Do you think we were fighting more than the North Vietnamese in the Vietnam War?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
That was never going to happen so the point is moot. He prob would have been either put on the boxing team or used for recruiting. He did not want to represent America, he hated America that much that he would do 3 years in jail instead, which is not honorable.
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He did not hate America, Hawk. It can be argued that by being as brave as he was in standing up for his position...he helped make America a better country.

I agree with Chomsky's post above yours.
 
Chomsky said:
- He stood tall and strong for civil rights in a difficult era, when his livelihood depended upon fitting into a white run sport (as most things were back then).

- He then was willing to give-up his championship belt, and go to prison for his antiwar beliefs.

"My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father. ... Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail."

I admire both stands, and do think they're worthy of hero status.
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Good argument
 
I don't consider anyone a hero unless they actually do something heroic, and then, only in that particular instance. Hero worship is idiotic.
 
JC Callender said:
Did "rape, death, slave labor, loss of family, home, etc..." happen in the Soviet Union? Do you think we were fighting more than the North Vietnamese in the Vietnam War?
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I don't know what the Vietnam War was about but I'm sure that " rape, death, slave labour, loss of family, home etc." were never going to be consequences of 'refusing to fight for their country' for Ali.
Whatever the intentions in Vietnam, it all turned out pretty good for the Vietnamese, in the end. For the first time in generations they have their own country and they've done pretty good with it. My son toured SE Asia a couple years ago and he came back with nothing but positives to report, and he's not easy to impress that way, having an unfortunate conservative slant.
 
calamity said:
I liked his Frasier fights better.
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If you get the chance, watch "When We Were Kings". Good show, won an Oscar. Foreman helped Ali up the stairs at the award ceremony, a nice moment.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Ali went where he wanted to go. By 1967 almost all blacks did. This is as much figment of fantasy as that he was ever going to be asked to go kill VC.
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I guess you missed the part where he was severely punished for refusing to go to Vietnam on religious grounds. I'd say anybody who knowingly faces persecution because of his beliefs if to be admired. "Hero" is over used, but he has far more respect of me than presidents who, from the finest trappings the country an offer, send boys to die for their own political position.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
That was never going to happen so the point is moot. He prob would have been either put on the boxing team or used for recruiting. He did not want to represent America, he hated America that much that he would do 3 years in jail instead, which is not honorable.
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He hated America? He could have gone to live anywhere and didn't. He could have come to Canada, and didn't. So where do you see him "hating America".

He hayed war, along with half the rest of the country.

You know who hated America......the sons of congressmen, Senators and state politicians who seemed somehow never top get called in the draft.

Americans HATED Ali, because he threw off his slave name and became a Muslim, because he was black and he spoke his mind....and we all know "his people" need keep their uppity mouths shut.

I don't like the fact he invented Rap....but that's another matter
 
BrewerBob said:
I have a pretty narrow definition of hero and he doesn't fit it. But I greatly respect the anti-war stance he took, especially since he was never in any danger of seeing combat. They would have used him for PR. He opted for jail instead. I respect that.
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He was a mouthy nigger causing unrest. He would have never made tit back alive. It's not Elvis we're talking about here.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
That was never going to happen so the point is moot. He prob would have been either put on the boxing team or used for recruiting. He did not want to represent America, he hated America that much that he would do 3 years in jail instead, which is not honorable.
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Oh...


Well, I was there, soon to be facing the draft myself. And I do not recall anyone anywhere saying he would be given non combat status. In fact I recall the hate for him so great that the appeal board took mere minutes to send him to prison, failed to give a reason and basically railroaded his black ass to jail.

The common thought among the people I associated with was that he was selected for the draft so they could send him over there and kill him; shut him up to keep the rest of the "niggers" in line.
 
Fearandloathing said:
He hated America? He could have gone to live anywhere and didn't. He could have come to Canada, and didn't. So where do you see him "hating America".

He hayed war, along with half the rest of the country.

You know who hated America......the sons of congressmen, Senators and state politicians who seemed somehow never top get called in the draft.

Americans HATED Ali, because he threw off his slave name and became a Muslim, because he was black and he spoke his mind....and we all know "his people" need keep their uppity mouths shut.

I don't like the fact he invented Rap....but that's another matter
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He was pretty despised, if I remember right. Even his future friend, Howard Cosell, was reviled for supporting him.
 
JC Callender said:
Do you consider Ali a hero for his religious and political stances during the 60's and 70's? If so, why? And if not, why?
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That's the strangest thing I've ever heard. I didn't know he had a stance to take - let alone that far back. *shrug*
 
Aunt Spiker said:
That's the strangest thing I've ever heard. I didn't know he had a stance to take - let alone that far back. *shrug*
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Well, some people escaped the draft by being a congressman's son, others by moving to Canada. He would have been welcomed here as a hero, in fact was invited to take advantage of it by his good friend George Chuvallo. He chose instead to take a stand,m be stripped of his titles and sent to prison..illegally.

He was freed in 1972 by appeal where the court heard he was not given a fair trial, procedure was not followed and "religious" objection was a valid pass.

Here we have a Muslim who is against all war, and the same people who say they are all terrorists are the same ones saying he should have rotted in jail even after the courts cleared him of all wrongdoing.

Strange country you have
 
Aunt Spiker said:
That's the strangest thing I've ever heard. I didn't know he had a stance to take - let alone that far back. *shrug*
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Yeah, he was pretty controversial back in the day, as I'm sure you now know from reading some of these comments. Very interesting biography if you ever get the time.
 
Fearandloathing said:
He was a mouthy nigger causing unrest. He would have never made tit back alive. It's not Elvis we're talking about here.
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That's basically the sentiment in it's most raw and politically incorrect form, I think, of many folks back then and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Ali didn't go for that reason alone.
 
Fearandloathing said:
I guess you missed the part where he was severely punished for refusing to go to Vietnam on religious grounds.
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"Missed" is the wrong word, I posited that he was never going to go to Vietnam, that he was misrepresenting reality when he announced that he was refusing to go.
 
Fearandloathing said:
He hated America? He could have gone to live anywhere and didn't. He could have come to Canada, and didn't. So where do you see him "hating America".

r
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Let's start with him saying over and over again that something to the effect " I am muslim, I hate no one, but 85%+% of Americans are like tigers who want to eat my people, and I want nothing to do with them".

BTW there is a really good piece on ali here :

The darker side of Muhammad Ali - Salon.com

In it there is the assertion that Ali did not trust the promises given that he would not be expected to go to Nam to fight.
 
Muhamed Ali is a huge figure among the elders here in Dardania. I do not see younger generations speaking of him today.
 
JC Callender said:
Do you consider Ali a hero for his religious and political stances during the 60's and 70's? If so, why? And if not, why?
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No, neither boxers nor people with religious and political views are heros for those reasons. Heros make a difference for other people. I didn't see Cassius Clay ever do that.
 
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