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A Wish Of Perfect Logic

Ancient Herald said:
I refuse to correct myself when i feel the person is using dishonest means to attempt to change my opinion or just personally attack or are just being argumentative without any kind of substance.
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You refuse to correct yourself no matter what. When asked to provide evidence for the correctness of your accusations (i.e. to supply examples and explain how those constitute any of the dastardly things you perceive being done to you), you follow up with further accusations.

what i respond to is open, honest, objective, and unbiased discussion. Nothing else.
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Yet what you often fail to realize is that the decision of what all those things are lies not exclusively with you.
I do know the difference and can often spot them, but not always.
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I'd agree to that being a common failing that virtually nobody is immune to all of the time. I certainly don't claim to be.
And you have not been that at all.
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And there we have it.

The post you respond to was honest, objective in my book, and as best as one can be, unbiased.

To be met with yet another accusation levelled back by you.

The problem that many people encounter in interchange on a debate forum is not solvable by introducing the strictest rules of logic onto arguments presented. It lies in refusing to either apply or accept logic in conducting disagreement, mostly (where it happens) because that disagreement is seen as a personal insult. That one then rises to in displays of negative and thus unproductive emotionality.

Not a big thing really on something as irrelevant as an internet forum really is. But a bummer when one doesn't learn to kick the habit in real life.
 
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Summerwind said:
Hmm, your contradict yourself and your OP then because they clearly utilize the term logic not reasonableness.
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yeah, possessing reason is not always conducive to being reasonable. ;)
 
DDD said:
See :)

As far as DP and debates are concerned though, just keep away from logical fallacies, that is all. You would be a good debater by practice if you keep away from those.

Unless you are a basement kind of a person?
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I do try to keep away from logical fallacies.
 
Chagos said:
You refuse to correct yourself no matter what. When asked to provide evidence for the correctness of your accusations (i.e. to supply examples and explain how those constitute any of the dastardly things you perceive being done to you), you follow up with further accusations.

Yet what you often fail to realize is that the decision of what all those things are lies not exclusively with you.
I'd agree to that being a common failing that virtually nobody is immune to all of the time. I certainly don't claim to be.
And there we have it.

The post you respond to was honest, objective in my book, and as best as one can be, unbiased.

To be met with yet another accusation levelled back by you.

The problem that many people encounter in interchange on a debate forum is not solvable by introducing the strictest rules of logic onto arguments presented. It lies in refusing to either apply or accept logic in conducting disagreement, mostly (where it happens) because that disagreement is seen as a personal insult. That one then rises to in displays of negative and thus unproductive emotionality.

Not a big thing really on something as irrelevant as an internet forum really is. But a bummer when one doesn't learn to kick the habit in real life.
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Why would i want to provide anyone with evidence when I know damn well they will not acknowledge, or just ignore it, dismiss it or spin it in some way?

Se, your whole post is a dishonest personal attack on me in calling me a hypocrite and is not reasonable. it is called turnabout. Turnabout is used only by those who can not discuss a topic because they have no knowledge or they know their assertions are very unpopular and can not be truthful in what they want.

Calling me a hypocrite and turning things against me will not endear me to you nor to anybody else.

And you guys are making thing way too personal. You radicals love to tag people too.
 
betuadollar said:
Logic is a mathematical form of deduced reasoning used to assess the validity of statements. It forms the basis of all true philosophy.

Logic is the reason American government exists; it was Ramus logic as applied to biblical exegesis that created the New England Way. So it's also something that occupies a place in our history.
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I define logic as being reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity. In other words, once one thing is validated, proceed to the next thing behind. To put it into a Sherlock Holmes sort of way, eliminate the impossible, and all that is left is the possible...eliminate the incorrect, and all that is left is correct.

Not sure where you get mathematics from, though math DOES by necessity follow the same principle, as does all science that uses scientific method.


Since we can't possible know everything, however, just how much of what we say is logical? Since it relies on the verification of fact?

This is why I say there is no true logic, because, it all depends on perspective. From one mental vantage point, fire is alive, a living thing...because that mental vantage point is missing several key pieces of information. But for the person missing that info, they believe they are perfectly logical in claiming that fire is a living thing.

Some people think supply side is the most logical form of economics, while others thing demand side is. Why? Different perspectives.
 
Ancient Herald said:
Why would i want to provide anyone with evidence when I know damn well they will not acknowledge, or just ignore it, dismiss it or spin it in some way?
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That's called projection.
Se, your whole post is a dishonest personal attack on me in calling me a hypocrite and is not reasonable. it is called turnabout. Turnabout is used only by those who can not discuss a topic because they have no knowledge or they know their assertions are very unpopular and can not be truthful in what they want.
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No, it's called an observation, one that YOU are in the process of reinforcing with further evidence.
Calling me a hypocrite and turning things against me will not endear me to you nor to anybody else.
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That is not the point of debate. The point of debate is to come to the most correct conclusion possible by pitting opposing ideas against each other.
And you guys are making thing way too personal. You radicals love to tag people too.
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Says the man calling others radicals.


THAT, by the way, is called irony.
 
Ancient Herald said:
Why would i want to provide anyone with evidence when I know damn well they will not acknowledge, or just ignore it, dismiss it or spin it in some way?

Se, your whole post is a dishonest personal attack on me in calling me a hypocrite and is not reasonable. it is called turnabout. Turnabout is used only by those who can not discuss a topic because they have no knowledge or they know their assertions are very unpopular and can not be truthful in what they want.

Calling me a hypocrite and turning things against me will not endear me to you nor to anybody else.

And you guys are making thing way too personal. You radicals love to tag people too.
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Well, thanks for making my point.
 
KevinKohler said:
That's called projection.
No, it's called an observation, one that YOU are in the process of reinforcing with further evidence.
That is not the point of debate. The point of debate is to come to the most correct conclusion possible by pitting opposing ideas against each other.
Says the man calling others radicals.


THAT, by the way, is called irony.
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No it is not.

You are the ones whoa re being very dissentious and turning this into a combat. You are the ones projecting because4 all you want to do is trash me and I haven't dine a damned thing wrong.

You're just a bunch of pieces of filth to me.

Any more and i will simply put a bunch of assholes on ignore.

And **** you too.

You are not correct in this.
 
Ancient Herald said:
As ye judge me, you are not judging me, you are only defining yourself.
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The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

Same source and unlike you I'll credit it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Dyer



Edit: Okay, I posted that before reading the latest rant of yours. From which clearly follows that this is not so much about logic as it is about the need to grow up.

Since that's something that nobody can help anyone else with, I'm outa here.
 
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Chagos said:
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

Same source and unlike you I'll credit it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Dyer
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You're the ones revealing your ignorance and dishonesty with your baseless harassment of me.

I refuse to look at anything you have to provide me.
 
Ancient Herald said:
No it is not.

You are the ones whoa re being very dissentious and turning this into a combat. You are the ones projecting because4 all you want to do is trash me and I haven't dine a damned thing wrong.

You're just a bunch of pieces of filth to me.

Any more and i will simply put a bunch of assholes on ignore.

And **** you too.

You are not correct in this.
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Keep it civil, or the mods will catch you. That's just friendly advice.


My last bit of friendly advice for you, since I have no vested interest in this "argument", beyond the time it took to make my last post, is that....take a minute, read the last couple few posts you've made, especially the one right after THIS one, and see if you can't look at it from our perspective, and then reread what you had to say about why you don't bother debating some people.


Take it for what it is, my attempt to give you a little advice.
 
KevinKohler said:
Keep it civil, or the mods will catch you. That's just friendly advice.


My last bit of friendly advice for you, since I have no vested interest in this "argument", beyond the time it took to make my last post, is that....take a minute, read the last couple few posts you've made, especially the one right after THIS one, and see if you can't look at it from our perspective, and then reread what you had to say about why you don't bother debating some people.


Take it for what it is, my attempt to give you a little advice.
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I'm incredibly sick and tired of people telling me i have to look at it from their point of view.

maybe if you'd look at it from my point of view you'd see what i am trying to say about you. But i l\know you won't because you want this to be a combat and you want to win desperately in order to silence me.



And it is you guys who are turning it into an unfriendly combat with you baseless personal attacks and accusations. You are going to do so in order to get me banned because you/'re incredibly disingenuous people who have to silence me for seeing right through your dishonest crap.
 
Ancient Herald said:
I'm incredibly sick and tired of people telling me i have to look at it from their point of view.

maybe if you'd look at it from my point of view you'd see what i am trying to say about you. But i l\know you won't because you want this to be a combat and you want to win desperately in order to silence me.



And it is you guys who are turning it into an unfriendly combat with you baseless personal attacks and accusations. You are going to do so in order to get me banned because you/'re incredibly disingenuous people who have to silence me for seeing right through your dishonest crap.
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The only person who will get you banned is you. I'm not attacking you, I'm making observations, observations that you are continuing to prove to be true.

Part of being able to deal effectively with other people is to see things from their point of view. I have already done so with you. Y9our point of view is, you see me and the other posters here as attacking you, egging you on, provoking you, calling you a liar, or other names through implication.

Well, let me put that to rest for you...I don't IMPLY. If I wanted to call you a liar, I would say "You are a liar, and you should stop" or something to that effect.

Try not to get too worked up. These are just words on a screen, put there by some dude who you will never see, who has no real clue who you really are.
 
KevinKohler said:
The only person who will get you banned is you. I'm not attacking you, I'm making observations, observations that you are continuing to prove to be true.

Part of being able to deal effectively with other people is to see things from their point of view. I have already done so with you. Y9our point of view is, you see me and the other posters here as attacking you, egging you on, provoking you, calling you a liar, or other names through implication.

Well, let me put that to rest for you...I don't IMPLY. If I wanted to call you a liar, I would say "You are a liar, and you should stop" or something to that effect.

Try not to get too worked up. These are just words on a screen, put there by some dude who you will never see, who has no real clue who you really are.
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Except they are not true. they are outright lies by dishonest people, including yourself.

I have nothing more to say. You people have disrupted this thread with your crap. You really can not help yourselves either.
You see, the sad thing is about your whining about me not admitting being wrong when you just arbitrarily claim i am wrong is that is the real projection, It is you people who can not admit you're wrong or you would not be trying so hard to get me banned and get rid of me. You made this personal about me when you should have kept to the subject of the OP.

good day.
 
Ancient Herald said:
Except they are not true. they are outright lies by dishonest people, including yourself.

I have nothing more to say. You people have disrupted this thread with your crap. You really can not help yourselves either.
You see, the sad thing is about your whining about me not admitting being wrong when you just arbitrarily claim i am wrong is that is the real projection, It is you people who can not admit you're wrong or you would not be trying so hard to get me banned and get rid of me. You made this personal about me when you should have kept to the subject of the OP.

good day.
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Well...the topic is about logic, so......
 
Ancient Herald said:
I'm not one much for logic. of course this will get the usual logical people upset and start in on berating me. I have a minimum understanding of it and tend to view it as a tool to detect bs. other than that, it's like what mister Spock says, logic is the mere beginning of wisdom.
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Just FYI:

"Logic" is a method of determining the validity of an inference. It's a complex field, with many variations, depending upon the axioms used, and functions and truth-values classified as acceptable in a specific framework. E.g. bivalent/classical logic, fuzzy logic, predicate logic, propositional logic, relevance logics, fuzzy logic, modal logics, dialethias, etc.

You're talking about rhetoric, or skills in a debate or an argument.


For you see, with absolutely perfect logic, regardless of how verbose or factual an assertion of an opinion is, absolutely perfect logic will defeat any assert or argument presented.

No matter what.
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So you, uh... want to win every argument? With your Perfect Logic? Regardless of the facts? :D

That doesn't work. There is no magical set of rhetorical devices that will result in your winning every argument. In fact, I'd say it is a self-defeating wish, because such mighty skills would inevitably result in your proving different things on different days, thus undermining your credibility.


Because sometimes i get really frustrated with all the yelling and screaming of people at each other. And reasonable and sensible people, when confronted with such perfect argument, would realize their error ad correct themselves appropriately. But, it wouldn't work on all people.Only those with a sense of decency and integrity would respond in such a manner.
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You can't stop people from arguing, even with perfect rhetorical or debating or oratory skills. That is not going to happen.

People will disagree with you, and that's just how life is. You aren't going to win every single argument, even if you have every single fact and tool at your disposal. You'll have to find your own way to deal with that.
 
Ancient Herald said:
I'm not one much for logic. of course this will get the usual logical people upset and start in on berating me. I have a minimum understanding of it and tend to view it as a tool to detect bs. other than that, it's like what mister Spock says, logic is the mere beginning of wisdom.

But when I think about things, i do have one wish in regards to logic. i wish that I could have absolutely perfect logic.

For you see, with absolutely perfect logic, regardless of how verbose or factual an assertion of an opinion is, absolutely perfect logic will defeat any assert or argument presented.

No matter what.

Because sometimes i get really frustrated with all the yelling and screaming of people at each other. And reasonable and sensible people, when confronted with such perfect argument, would realize their error ad correct themselves appropriately. But, it wouldn't work on all people.Only those with a sense of decency and integrity would respond in such a manner.

Dishonest argumentative people will continue to do just that. use any dishonest trick they can bring to bear against the assertions, but even at that those people would still lose because being absolutely perfectly logical will see those assertions and tricks and treat it like wet tissue paper, and go right through them.

And then, there are those who just deny everything. In short, if their hair was on fire, they wold deny that their hair is on fire and let it burn. if somebody else would put out the fire, they will continue to, well, deny it.

But I just think that sometimes it would be nice to be able to have such debating skill.

But that's me. So the only thing i can try to do is be a reasonable person, and a decent one.

I am not perfect, and I often fail, but, reasonable and decent people respond best to well, reason and decency.

That's just me.

And sometimes i think i have a very unique definition of these things.
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Thank you for starting this thread. I am actually working on a book titled Lack of Logic, which explains how much math and logic is failing to be applied by society and the consequences.
 
No, not every argument. But i do want to put down some people who are just being trolls or who have some very detrimental extremists views that are quite harmful to society.

I don't look at discussion as a combat for the win for bragging rights to put people down.

I look at it as a learning experience for an exchange of information.
 
Ancient Herald said:
No it is not.

You are the ones whoa re being very dissentious and turning this into a combat. You are the ones projecting because4 all you want to do is trash me and I haven't dine a damned thing wrong.

You're just a bunch of pieces of filth to me.

Any more and i will simply put a bunch of assholes on ignore.

And **** you too.

You are not correct in this.
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More irony!
 
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