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Micro-houses

lizzie said:
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that third picture is a cob house,they are really amazing in that they are made of clay mud and straw,and alot of them in europe have been intact for centuries.


but speaking of tiny houses,they are semi popular in alot of texas.some people will buy an acre of land in the middle of nowhere,and instead of running water and electricity and building a large house,they build tiny houses use water tanks and use solar/generator combos.not a bad idea here when sometimes an acre can be bought for 1000 bucks or less.
 
beerftw said:
that third picture is a cob house,they are really amazing in that they are made of clay mud and straw,and alot of them in europe have been intact for centuries.


but speaking of tiny houses,they are semi popular in alot of texas.some people will buy an acre of land in the middle of nowhere,and instead of running water and electricity and building a large house,they build tiny houses use water tanks and use solar/generator combos.not a bad idea here when sometimes an acre can be bought for 1000 bucks or less.
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My biggest reservation with putting one on my place, is that a new septic system will cost through the ass, because perc testing in this area is not typically good enough to put in a standard system, and it will very likely have to be an aerobic system. That is really expensive here, as is a new water well, but I've thought about a composting toilet and a rainwater catchment system for water usage.
 
lizzie said:
My biggest reservation with putting one on my place, is that a new septic system will cost through the ass, because perc testing in this area is not typically good enough to put in a standard system, and it will very likely have to be an aerobic system. That is really expensive here, as is a new water well, but I've thought about a composting toilet and a rainwater catchment system for water usage.
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I heard about this prototype toilet system that uses focused solar rays to turn waste from a toilet into charcoal, which can be used as fuel.

Not that I'd want to grill with it, but still. :2razz:

Apparently the prototype uses expensive materials though, so it's not currently cost-effective.
 
lizzie said:
My biggest reservation with putting one on my place, is that a new septic system will cost through the ass, because perc testing in this area is not typically good enough to put in a standard system, and it will very likely have to be an aerobic system. That is really expensive here, as is a new water well, but I've thought about a composting toilet and a rainwater catchment system for water usage.
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An anaerobic digester should produce enough methane to cook a meal each day.

Design of a Household Human Waste Bioreactor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNHjQYv9L3A
 
sangha said:
Doesn't sound (to me) like a practical solution for an individual.

What happens to the pathogens in the poop? My understanding is that you need heat to kill them, and the anaerobic process doesn't provide that.
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The anaerobic microbe digestion heats it sufficiently? Perhaps not. At any rate, it's in a contained system.

I saw one in Kenya. The guy used just cement (a basin and a cover) and a device on top to collect methane with tubing to the house. The system cost him almost nothing. When he got home for work, he didn't need to make a fire for supper.

I don't know the details, but it might be worth looking into.
 
ecofarm said:
The anaerobic microbe digestion heats it sufficiently? Perhaps not. At any rate, it's in a contained system.

I saw one in Kenya. The guy used just cement (a basin and a cover) and a device on top to collect methane with tubing to the house. The system cost him almost nothing. When he got home for work, he didn't need to make a fire for supper.

I don't know the details, but it might be worth looking into.
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I wonder if you could combine that solar toilet thing and the methane bit into something that generated both power and fuel (the "Biochar"), while at the same time killing any pathogens.

Not sure high heat and methane should be near each other though...:lol:
 
The Mark said:
I wonder if you could combine that solar toilet thing and the methane bit into something that generated both power and fuel (the "Biochar"), while at the same time killing any pathogens.

Not sure high heat and methane should be near each other though...:lol:
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Perhaps one could empty the digester occasionally (perhaps necessary, I guess) and then zap it to make coal.
 
ecofarm said:
The anaerobic microbe digestion heats it sufficiently? Perhaps not. At any rate, it's in a contained system.
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No, it doesn't and when the process is done, you have to do something with the finished "product". In the first link, they mention using it as fertilizer, which doesn't sound like a very good idea to me.

The 2nd link seems to describe a system where the waste is accumulated and then processed (combined with carbonaceous material) in which case I wonder why they process it anaerobically. Why not use a standard aerobic composting method?

I saw one in Kenya. The guy used just cement (a basin and a cover) and a device on top to collect methane with tubing to the house. The system cost him almost nothing. When he got home for work, he didn't need to make a fire for supper.

I don't know the details, but it might be worth looking into.
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Well, it does have one advantage over the aerobic process which is the ability to collect the methane for fuel. I'm just wondering how they deal with the "leftovers"
 
The Mark said:
I wonder if you could combine that solar toilet thing and the methane bit into something that generated both power and fuel (the "Biochar"), while at the same time killing any pathogens.

Not sure high heat and methane should be near each other though...:lol:
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If you're thinking about processing the waste anaerobically (to produce methane) and then burning the remains to produce biochar, I don't think that will work. I'm not sure, but I think biochar is something different than cooked poop.
 
sangha said:
No, it doesn't and when the process is done, you have to do something with the finished "product". In the first link, they mention using it as fertilizer, which doesn't sound like a very good idea to me.

The 2nd link seems to describe a system where the waste is accumulated and then processed (combined with carbonaceous material) in which case I wonder why they process it anaerobically. Why not use a standard aerobic composting method?
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I believe standard composting does not produce, let alone capture, significant methane. It's the anaerobic bacteria that produce (extract) the methane during digestion.

Well, it does have one advantage over the aerobic process which is the ability to collect the methane for fuel. I'm just wondering how they deal with the "leftovers"
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Zap it to coal (as Mark mentioned), or heat it sufficiently to kill pathogens before using it as fertilizer or in compost.
 
sangha said:
If you're thinking about processing the waste anaerobically (to produce methane) and then burning the remains to produce biochar, I don't think that will work. I'm not sure, but I think biochar is something different than cooked poop.
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I'm not sure - I had posted this earlier - it seems to describe a system that DOES make biochar out of poo...or something like that...
The Mark said:
Here we go: Innovative solar-powered toilet developed by CU-Boulder ready for India unveiling | University of Colorado Boulder

Apparently it's waterless too.
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ecofarm said:
I believe standard composting does not produce, let alone capture, significant methane. It's the anaerobic bacteria that produce (extract) the methane during digestion.
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Yes, I noted that and it still leaves the issue of how the remains are disposed of or utilized


Zap it to coal (as Mark mentioned), or heat it sufficiently to kill pathogens before using it as fertilizer.
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I wonder what you're left with after the burn. It might have some nutrition to it, but it wouldn't be biologically active the way a good compost should be. That doesn't mean it would be worthless (or worse), but I wonder what the value actually is.

I'm also wondering why they need the methane when the process requires the input of large amounts of carbonaceous material (ex wood, straw, etc) If they have that, then they already have fuel.
 
The Mark said:
I'm not sure - I had posted this earlier - it seems to describe a system that DOES make biochar out of poo...or something like that...
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My apologies, but to be honest, I didn't bother reading the link after you first posted it. My bad

And it turns out I was wrong (Imagine that!!) and it does produce biochar (but not the methane, but maybe the two *can* be integrated somehow)

However, I've read mixed reports about biochar. It seems to be great for some crops, in some ways, and not so great in others. Either way, it's a fascinating topic for research.
 
sangha said:
I wonder what you're left with after the burn. It might have some nutrition to it, but it wouldn't be biologically active the way a good compost should be. That doesn't mean it would be worthless (or worse), but I wonder what the value actually is.
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Essentially, it's just nitrogen, like raw manure. It would need to be mixed, layered and turned while observing moisture and temp, as one does with manure, in a composting system. Or, it could be used inefficiently by just digging it into the soil as is sometimes done with raw manure.

I'm also wondering why they need the methane when the process requires the input of large amounts of carbonaceous material (ex wood, straw, etc) If they have that, then they already have fuel.
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I saw it at a small farm with one person tending the farm. Having methane to cook with saved him a lot of time at the end of the day when he was tired. For the cost of a cement basin and cover, and a collector on top with tubing, he got enough methane to cook his supper each day. I was only at that farm for a day, so I didn't get time to study his anaerobic system to include post-methane use.
 
I wouldn't want to live in one of these, but they are certainly interesting!

waterhouses.jpg
 
ecofarm said:
Essentially, it's just nitrogen, like raw manure. It would need to be mixed, layered and turned while observing moisture and temp, as one does with manure, in a composting system. Or, it could be used inefficiently by just digging it into the soil as is sometimes done with raw manure.
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I'm not too big on chemistry, but I think you're right about the leftovers being (essentially) nitrogen. After all, the methane that was extracted is made of carbon (from the carbonaceous materials) and hydrogen. Right? Since the main composting chemicals are carbon and nitrogen, extracting the carbon, in the form of methane, would leave the nitrogen behind.

But I disagree about the ease of disposal. I dont think it's as simple as a load of horse manure. It contains pathogens that are dangerous, and potentially fatal, to humans, and if there's enough of it, simply digging a hole would still present a hazard to people nearby.

I saw it at a small farm with one person tending the farm. Having methane to cook with saved him a lot of time at the end of the day when he was tired. For the cost of a cement basin and cover, and a collector on top with tubing, he got enough methane to cook his supper each day. I was only at that farm for a day, so I didn't get time to study his anaerobic system to include post-methane use.
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To be honest, I don't know much about human waste composting, but I've heard about it before. I've always wondered about the details, but never took the time to investigate it. However, I have heard that it's actually being used by some individuals and families, and I read about one where the waste was pumped into a septic tank buried in the ground that leached the waste into the surrounding soil, on top of which they planted plants known to "process" (and thrive on) those sorts of biologically active wastes.
 
lizzie said:
I wouldn't want to live in one of these, but they are certainly interesting!

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They're neat little structures, with great views and a good deal of natural security against intruders, but yeah, I don't think I want to live like that.

Imagine trying to get some chinese food delivered late at night
 
sangha said:
To be honest, I don't know much about human waste composting, but I've heard about it before. I've always wondered about the details, but never took the time to investigate it. However, I have heard that it's actually being used by some individuals and families, and I read about one where the waste was pumped into a septic tank buried in the ground that leached the waste into the surrounding soil, on top of which they planted plants known to "process" (and thrive on) those sorts of biologically active wastes.
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I believe keeping a compost pile above 110F for 3 months will kill all the pathogens. As this is the standard temp and minimum time for regular composting, it's really just the standard procedure for regular compost that will make it safe. That said, I'm an expert in composting and I would not play with human waste. Even under the best management regime, there are times when a pile has too much moisture and the temp drops for a bit (perhaps a day or three). It would be too stressful to have to make absolutely sure the pile's management was perfect, and a mistake being potentially deadly is just not worth it.
 
ecofarm said:
I believe keeping a compost pile above 110F for 3 months will kill all the pathogens. As this is the standard temp and minimum time for regular composting, it's really just the standard procedure for regular compost that will make it safe. That said, I'm an expert in composting and I would not play with human waste. Even under the best management regime, there times when a pile has too much moisture and the temp drops for a bit. It would be too stressful to have to make absolutely sure the pile's management was perfect, and a mistake being potentially deadly is just not worth it.
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Is that what the human composting systems do? Treat it with heat through aerobic composting methods?

If so, that makes sense, but that's different than the anaerobic process we were talking about. But then, as we both agreed, the aerobic process doesn't allow the collection of methane. Or does it? :shrug:

And I'd be wary of using compost that contained human fecal material too. Urine is OK. It's sterile and contains a lot of nitrogen (as well as other nutrients). In fact, I often pee on the piles of leaves we gather in the fall, and use the leaf compost that's generated in the spring (though there's been plenty of time for any unpleasant materials (if any) to have been washed out.
 
sangha said:
Is that what the human composting systems do? Treat it with heat through aerobic composting methods?

If so, that makes sense, but that's different than the anaerobic process we were talking about. But then, as we both agreed, the aerobic process doesn't allow the collection of methane. Or does it? :shrug:

And I'd be wary of using compost that contained human fecal material too. Urine is OK. It's sterile and contains a lot of nitrogen (as well as other nutrients). In fact, I often pee on the piles of leaves we gather in the fall, and use the leaf compost that's generated in the spring (though there's been plenty of time for any unpleasant materials (if any) to have been washed out.
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Actually, ALL composting works through heat, I think.

It's designed to kill seeds and such, in part - you don't want rogue plants showing up.


And it's also why you have to turn compost, because it can heat up so much it catches fire.
 
sangha said:
Is that what the human composting systems do? Treat it with heat through aerobic composting methods?
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All composting (aerobic) needs to be 110F for at least 3 months (under warm climate, in cold climates longer). It just so happens that's sufficient to kill pathogens. With animal manure, imperfect management is not dangerous. With human manure, imperfect management (the pile losing temp for a couple days during the three months) could be ones ass (pun intended).


If so, that makes sense, but that's different than the anaerobic process we were talking about. But then, as we both agreed, the aerobic process doesn't allow the collection of methane. Or does it? :shrug:
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Right. Standard composting (layered, turned or otherwise) is open air (no collection possible) and it doesn't produce methane in the first place. It's anaerobic bacteria that produce methane in their digestion process.

And I'd be wary of using compost that contained human fecal material too. Urine is OK. It's sterile and contains a lot of nitrogen (as well as other nutrients). In fact, I often pee on the piles of leaves we gather in the fall, and use the leaf compost that's generated in the spring (though there's been plenty of time for any unpleasant materials (if any) to have been washed out.
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Correct. Peeing on the leaves changes the carbon:nitrogen ratio into a range where microbial digestion is possible. Ultimately, that's the most important thing - c:n ratio. After that is proper aeration and moisture, which can be accomplised by layering (lasagna composting) or turning the pile.
 
The Mark said:
Actually, ALL composting works through heat, I think.

It's designed to kill seeds and such, in part - you don't want rogue plants showing up.


And it's also why you have to turn compost, because it can heat up so much it catches fire.
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That true with aerobic composting, but not anaerobic composting.

But then, that's why people prefer aerobic composting despite the dangers of it spontaneously combusting. It kills pathogens and seeds, it encourages the development of beneficial microbes and fungi and, to top it off, it doesn't stink like ****

But that's why I wonder why those people are proposing an anaerobic solution. And to bring it back to this thread, it just doesnt sound feasible for an individual or a small group. Disposing of human waste is a serious problem.

WHich brings me to another question I have. I watch a lot of YouTube vids about homesteading. All these people are preparing for Armeggedon. They're growing veggies and fruit, and raising chickens, rabbits, goats, pigs and even cows and horses. But I keep wondering what they're going to do with their poo when everyone else's hits the fan.
 
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