Should strip clubs be more regulated?

CalGun · Mar 7, 2014

Govt isn't the answer. I just don't have any "hard feelings" for these "victims" that chose to enter an establishment which could cost them greatly. With great freedom comes great responsibility - the reason we are losing our freedoms' is simple - no one wants to be personally responsible for their shortcommings.

MaggieD said:
Man Sues Over $129,000 in credit card charges in a 7-hour stay. Man Sues Over $129,626 Strip Joint Tab | The Smoking Gun

Man Sues Strip Club Over $50,000 credit card bill in 3 hours
Man sues strip club over $50,000 credit card bill

Houston Strip Club Sues Man Over $321,000 One-Month Tab

Houston Strip Club Sues Man After He Skips Out On One-Month $321,000 Tab | The Smoking Section

Strip Club Sues Oracle Over Employee's Unpaid Tab of $33,000 Spent Over Two Visits

Strip club sues Oracle over employee's unpaid tab - SFGate

Man Sues Hustler Club for Charging Him Nearly $30,000 One Crazy Night

Man Sues Hustler Club For Charging Him Nearly $30,000 One Crazy Night: Gothamist

I could go on and on. Are these clubs a blight on society? I'm guessing most of these charges are made after a patron is drunk. An endgame a strip club is probably most happy to oblige.

If I had to put money on something, it would be that these places, and the girls who work there, cheat the taxman and count on guys being married and not wanting their wives to know how much money they've spent. So they pay up.

Should these clubs be more regulated? For instance, should they be prosecuted for getting patrons too drunk? Should towns pass ordinances that alcohol can't be served at all in these establishments? That every chit signed by a patron must be accompanied by a BAC test?

Seems like these are very scummy places. Tom had a customer (cabbie) who'd go to one of these places a few times a month with $1,000 in his pocket. An hour or so later, Tom'd pick him up; he'd be wasted and broke.

Your thoughts?

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

vesper said:
This is the second post of yours I have found today that you make excuses for people who set themselves up to be victims. It's called personal responsibility. Something that seems to have gone by the wayside in this country.

Curious way to put it. So if you drove thru a drive-thru window of an independent fast foods place and ordered food and a drink, not noticing there was not stated price for the drink - then at the window they handed you your soda and told you "that'll be $6000" explaining they can't take back a food product because they couldn't serve it to anyone else - you would agree that you owe them $6000 as you "personal responsibility" having not asked the price.

That is EXACTLY what you are claiming. If anyone can trick you they get to keep the money to teach you a lesson about personal responsibility.

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

A gather most on this thread favor eliminating all banking regulations and leaving it solely to "personal responsibility."

Lutherf · Mar 7, 2014

Ockham said:
They key here is the alcohol use. These men walked into the strip club voluntarily. They drank alcohol to the point of intoxication... voluntarily. They understood the effects of alcohol - and if it's said they did not, I'd call them a liar. They voluntarily provided their credit cards to pay for all the services that the strip club provides. Now if it's found out the girls or members of the strip club illegally charged the guy - well, that changes my outlook on this, and instead of these "victims" being 100% responsible for their loss, they're now 50% responsible for their loss.

While I'm sure that alcohol plays a role I don't think that severe intoxication does and especially not to the extent that this guy is claiming. The club doesn't want you to be ****faced...just buzzed and happy. If you pass out or do something stupid then they have to kick you out before you spent all your money.

If you look like you're spending they'll offer you a more private spot (provided you spend some more). They'll call the girl you've got your eye on away but if you complain they'll offer you 'exclusivity', for a fee. You'll just keep getting better and better 'deals' the more you shell out.

When I lived in Vegas I'd watch this all the time at one of the more upscale clubs in town. It was kind of funny watching some guy spend $1000 for the same attention I was getting for $20.

MaggieD · Mar 7, 2014

joko104 said:
My opinion view is that a person who goes to a strip club and gets drunk has the same consumer protections as everyone else. You claim they do not.

I think that's the right one.

We stayed at a beautiful resort in Orlando one spring. They'd just remodeled their pool area, which was in the lobby, to include a huge tile surround. While we were there, I'll bet we saw at least three people slip and fall on it. I mentioned it to an attorney when we got back and mused that the only way the hotel isn't responsible is if someone who slipped, fell and got injured was drunker than a skunk. He corrected me saying, in fact, "Drunks get the full protection of the law just like everyone else. They're entitled to a safe place to walk, even if they're staggering." I liked that analogy, and it changed my view of drunks forever. (That analogy works perfectly with rape victims as well.)

I loved that attorney. He was a dear friend, killed in a canoeing accident in Canada. The telephone company was suing our company for payment of a $10,000 over-time charge for some work we were going to do and then cancelled.** The attorney told me, "Maggie, what if they billed you $200 for that work? Would you pay it?" I said, "Of course!" He said, "Then you'd better find a way of settling it, because even you know you're wrong." Harrumpf. We settled.

**Not actually suing, really. They just threatened to pull our phone service.

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

This is a conservative little city. Someone was going to open a strip club on the main highway. But between the code inspectors making it clear they were going to go over everything with a magnifying glass and the sheriff's department vowing they were going to literally park 2 sheriff's cars across the street permanently, plus have at least 1 additional deputy occupied cruiser there too, they gave it up.

No sane person pulls into a bar with 3 police cars parked across the street.

vesper · Mar 7, 2014

joko104 said:
Curious way to put it. So if you drove thru a drive-thru window of an independent fast foods place and ordered food and a drink, not noticing there was not stated price for the drink - then at the window they handed you your soda and told you "that'll be $6000" explaining they can't take back a food product because they couldn't serve it to anyone else - you would agree that you owe them $6000 as you "personal responsibility" having not asked the price.

That is EXACTLY what you are claiming. If anyone can trick you they get to keep the money to teach you a lesson about personal responsibility.

That's a poor analogy. When you enter an establishment with the intent to drink, get high, and don't remember the six lap dances you enjoyed, the several rounds of drinks you purchased whose fault is that?

radcen · Mar 7, 2014

joko104 said:
So what you are saying is that if you went to a restaurant and gave them your credit card without looking carefully and they billed you $12,700.00 for a cup of coffee, 2 eggs, toast and bacon they you owe it because you are a stupid idiot who gave them your credit card for the service of being served breakfast.

The examples I gave are exact examples of good and services. It is clear your view is that as soon as a person gets drunk they also lose protections everyone else has. YOU are who is claiming get drunk is an excuse - that in your view stealing from someone is legal if that someone is drunk. In short, your messages are hypocritical moral crusading - claiming that's not what you're doing.

My opinion view is that a person who goes to a strip club and gets drunk has the same consumer protections as everyone else. You claim they do not.

However, then I do go on to claim their should be limits on preying upon people's addictions. I would see it little different than a psychiatrist who got a patient to given him $500,000 by signing some paper.

There is no such thing as a legitimate $30,000 for 2 nights at a strip club or $10,000 for being there an hour as there is no service they offer for which that is a reasonable-expectation price.

No. If the cup of coffee/food is clearly noted on the menu as costing $12,700 after added up, and the customers still purchases it, then the charge is legit.

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

MaggieD said:
I think that's the right one.

We stayed at a beautiful resort in Orlando one spring. They'd just remodeled their pool area, which was in the lobby, to include a huge tile surround. While we were there, I'll bet we saw at least three people slip and fall on it. I mentioned it to an attorney when we got back and mused that the only way the hotel isn't responsible is if someone who slipped, fell and got injured was drunker than a skunk. He corrected me saying, in fact, "Drunks get the full protection of the law just like everyone else. They're entitled to a safe place to walk, even if they're staggering." I liked that analogy, and it changed my view of drunks forever. (That analogy works perfectly with rape victims as well.)

I loved that attorney. He was a dear friend, killed in a canoeing accident in Canada. The telephone company was suing our company for payment of a $10,000 over-time charge for some work we were going to do and then cancelled.** The attorney told me, "Maggie, what if they billed you $200 for that work? Would you pay it?" I said, "Of course!" He said, "Then you'd better find a way of settling it, because even you know you're wrong." Harrumpf. We settled.

**Not actually suing, really. They just threatened to pull our phone service.

Nice example. Many people have the idea that they can take the position because the other person is overcharging them then they don't have to pay anything at all. The correct answer is to pay what you think you legitimately owe. That way if they sue you and the judge/jury agrees you paid enough, they don't get their attorney fees and court costs.

MaggieD · Mar 7, 2014

vesper said:
That's a poor analogy. When you enter an establishment with the intent to drink, get high, and don't remember the six lap dances you enjoyed, the several rounds of drinks you purchased whose fault is that?

The Dram Act is evidence that establishments do take on responsibility for their over-serving.

MaggieD · Mar 7, 2014

joko104 said:
Nice example. Many people have the idea that they can take the position because the other person is overcharging them then they don't have to pay anything at all. The correct answer is to pay what you think you legitimately owe. That way if they sue you and the judge/jury agrees you paid enough, they don't get their attorney fees and court costs.

Excellent advice.

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

vesper said:
That's a poor analogy. When you enter an establishment with the intent to drink, get high, and don't remember the six lap dances you enjoyed, the several rounds of drinks you purchased whose fault is that?

It is an exact example. The question then is what is reasonable price for six lap dances and drinks you purchased, not whatever they decide they want to charge you. They would have to prove 6 lap dances and the drinks if challenged - and that would take a video and a total audit of all the clubs receipts compared to liquor supply purchases, plus liquor sales taxes paid.

It is not an issue of paying the reasonable fee for goods and services. It is the issue of paying whatever they decide to charge without any notice of what that charge it.

For example, if a dancer asks someone if he wants a lap dance, in my opinion unless she tells him "That'll be $200" ahead of time, he owes $0. That, more than anything else, is the charges issue. Can they charge whatever they want for whatever they want to charge for without any notice nor specific consent to the charges?

Just like if a waitress asked to clear your dishes away when your don't eating. If I am going to be charged for that, she has to say so or it's free - rather then when I get the bill there is $40 for removing dishes charges.

radcen · Mar 7, 2014

joko104 said:
Nice example. Many people have the idea that they can take the position because the other person is overcharging them then they don't have to pay anything at all. The correct answer is to pay what you think you legitimately owe. That way if they sue you and the judge/jury agrees you paid enough, they don't get their attorney fees and court costs.

I get to purchase something then pay only what *I* think is legit after-the-fact? Nice. :yes:

vesper · Mar 7, 2014

MaggieD said:
The Dram Act is evidence that establishments do take on responsibility for their over-serving.

But what about the one who entered the establishment already high? Dropped a couple of pills or smoked something right before entering? Ordered one drink and starts buying rounds, and purchasing extra services? The owner of the establishment isn't a mind reader. All they have to go on is they have provided this person with one drink.

MaggieD · Mar 7, 2014

radcen said:
I get to purchase something then pay only what *I* think is legit after-the-fact? Nice. :yes:

There's got to be some limit. I think Joko hit it right with "customary". I was hosting a dinner party at a restaurant. To avoid any "bill time confusion," I handed the staff my credit card and said, "Put everything on my card." Could that restaurant charge me $50 per drink and $200 per dinner when their drinks were $7 and entres all under $50 by menu? Would I be obligated to pay that charge?

Maybe one answer is that strip club prices must be posted. In 30-point type. At the entrance...conspicuously throughout the establishment based on occupancy limits.

Ockham · Mar 7, 2014

joko104 said:
So what you are saying is that if you went to a restaurant and gave them your credit card without looking carefully and they billed you $12,700.00 for a cup of coffee, 2 eggs, toast and bacon they you owe it because you are a stupid idiot who gave them your credit card for the service of being served breakfast.

No. You still get it. These people got drunk and paid for a service. There's nothing that suggests the strip club over charged them. In your example to make it accurate, I'd have to drunkenly order 2,000 eggs toast and bacon and coffee, get charged $12,700. Then yes.

joko104 said:
The examples I gave are exact examples of good and services. It is clear your view is that as soon as a person gets drunk they also lose protections everyone else has. YOU are who is claiming get drunk is an excuse - that in your view stealing from someone is legal if that someone is drunk. In short, your messages are hypocritical moral crusading - claiming that's not what you're doing.

A drunk person uses his credit card to buy a $250,000 Ferrari. Using your logic, he's a victim. Using my logic, he's a drunken idiot.

joko104 said:
My opinion view is that a person who goes to a strip club and gets drunk has the same consumer protections as everyone else. You claim they do not.

You're opinion is not based on law. No law was broken by the strip club. My opinion is laws are not and should not be created to protect stupid drunken people from themselves at a legitimate businesses expense. These people weren't forced to do what they did.

joko104 said:
However, then I do go on to claim their should be limits on preying upon people's addictions. I would see it little different than a psychiatrist who got a patient to given him $500,000 by signing some paper.

I fail to see any predatory behavior by any of the OP linked stories.

joko104 said:
There is no such thing as a legitimate $30,000 for 2 nights at a strip club or $10,000 for being there an hour as there is no service they offer for which that is a reasonable-expectation price.

Sure there is... buying everyone in the place a $100 lap dance and drinks on the house of expensive booze. Hell, someone can give a tip of $5,000 thinking he was gonna get lucky.

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

radcen said:
No. If the cup of coffee/food is clearly noted on the menu as costing $12,700 after added up, and the customers still purchases it, then the charge is legit.

I disagree. In that extreme example they would have to prove the customer saw that.

There is a principle of "in the ordinary course of commerce" that is very well established common law. An economic system can not function on the principle of commerce by the best tricksters.

By your logic, if a person on this forum received an infraction - for which you have to click I read the rules before allowing to post again - if somewhere down that long list exactly no one reads the owner of the forum added "you agree to pay $1000 per message you post" - then a year from now you own the administrator/owner $197,000.00 - right?

Just by that method, the owner of this forum could now be suing people for over $1 billion. If Google stuck that into their terms agreement for emails - $1000 per email, they could be suing for $100 trillion dollars.

If you were "too stupid" to just click on it, then you had it coming.

MaggieD · Mar 7, 2014

vesper said:
But what about the one who entered the establishment already high? Dropped a couple of pills or smoked something right before entering? Ordered one drink and starts buying rounds, and purchasing extra services? The owner of the establishment isn't a mind reader. All they have to go on is they have provided this person with one drink.

Even one drink. If a bar serves an obviously intoxicated person one drink, he's violated the Dram Act.

radcen · Mar 7, 2014

MaggieD said:
There's got to be some limit. I think Joko hit it right with "customary". I was hosting a dinner party at a restaurant. To avoid any "bill time confusion," I handed the staff my credit card and said, "Put everything on my card." Could that restaurant charge me $50 per drink and $200 per dinner when their drinks were $7 and entres all under $50 by menu? Would I be obligated to pay that charge?

Maybe one answer is that strip club prices must be posted. In 30-point type. At the entrance...conspicuously throughout the establishment based on occupancy limits.

Does the restaurant have a menu that says drink prices are $7? If so, then no, $50 would not be appropriate. A strip club is essentially a bar, and should be required to follow the same regulations regarding price posting as any other bar, whatever that may be in that jurisdiction.

We should also remember that what you're buying when you purchase a bottle of crappy sparkling wine* is not the wine, but other "attention". The bottle of sparkling wine is just the ruse to keep it legal.

*- I'd be surpirsed if they even had legitimate champaign on the premises.

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

Ockham said:
No. You still get it. These people got drunk and paid for a service. There's nothing that suggests the strip club over charged them. In your example to make it accurate, I'd have to drunkenly order 2,000 eggs toast and bacon and coffee, get charged $12,700. Then yes.

A drunk person uses his credit card to buy a $250,000 Ferrari. Using your logic, he's a victim. Using my logic, he's a drunken idiot.

You're opinion is not based on law. No law was broken by the strip club. My opinion is laws are not and should not be created to protect stupid drunken people from themselves at a legitimate businesses expense. These people weren't forced to do what they did.

I fail to see any predatory behavior by any of the OP linked stories.

Sure there is... buying everyone in the place a $100 lap dance and drinks on the house of expensive booze. Hell, someone can give a tip of $5,000 thinking he was gonna get lucky.

Except what you claim the person is being billed for 1.) never actually happened and 2.) there was no notice of prices if it did.

In the second example, if he gave a $5000 tip thinking "he'd get lucky" and he was given reason to believe that, he would be entitled to all of it because prostitution is illegal and therefore not an enforceable debt. That he didn't get the service doesn't mean that fraud is legal either.

All your logic is both factually wrong - in that is not what actually happened - and does not work for any other business. Over and over you keep stressing the person was drunk. That's not even really relevant. The question is consumer fraud.

There is one other factor that comes into play, and that is when the guy - drunk or otherwise - has the receipt to sign - assuming it is fully filled out - when actually numerous lines are left blank. A very high intimidate factor will be added if he is balking at signing - as in a fear factor.

notquiteright · Mar 7, 2014

The German said:
I dont even know if we have strip clubs here in any European country. There are pole dancers in almoust every nightclub and in some bars anyway. And because prostetution is legal here, there is a brothel in almoust every second district.

THIS is why I loved my FRG days! We didn't get off the Kaserne on passes that often but when we did it was PARTY time! Girls in the dance clubs were friendly, beer was GREAT, the dancers cute and if you struck out- the Brothel was on the day back.

eace

Ockham · Mar 7, 2014

MaggieD said:
There's got to be some limit. I think Joko hit it right with "customary". I was hosting a dinner party at a restaurant. To avoid any "bill time confusion," I handed the staff my credit card and said, "Put everything on my card." Could that restaurant charge me $50 per drink and $200 per dinner when their drinks were $7 and entres all under $50 by menu? Would I be obligated to pay that charge?

No they cannot inflate the charge empirically. However, if some of those people knew you were putting everything on your card, you provided no limitations to the restaurant on what could be ordered, and a few people ordered a $1,000 booze, yes you would be obligated to pay. You didn't inform the restaurant of a limit.

MaggieD said:
Maybe one answer is that strip club prices must be posted. In 30-point type. At the entrance...conspicuously throughout the establishment based on occupancy limits.

It would possibly provide some protection from drunken idiots filing lawsuits the day after.

eace

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

There is no such thing as the generic strip club just like there isn't the generic restaurant. Some strip clubs are fronts primarily for drugs and prostitution. Others are shake-down scam places - which I suspect most in the OP stories are. Still others are "gentlemen's club" in the true sense of the word - and those are basically semi-private very expensive fine gourmet dining establishments where you buy privacy, exclusiveness and very high menu prices for excellent food - and the dancers are more like scenery for the mood of the establishment and are fairly sophisticated rather than crude in dancing style.

vesper · Mar 7, 2014

joko104 said:
It is an exact example. The question then is what is reasonable price for six lap dances and drinks you purchased, not whatever they decide they want to charge you. They would have to prove 6 lap dances and the drinks if challenged - and that would take a video and a total audit of all the clubs receipts compared to liquor supply purchases, plus liquor sales taxes paid.

It is not an issue of paying the reasonable fee for goods and services. It is the issue of paying whatever they decide to charge without any notice of what that charge it.

For example, if a dancer asks someone if he wants a lap dance, in my opinion unless she tells him "That'll be $200" ahead of time, he owes $0. That, more than anything else, is the charges issue. Can they charge whatever they want for whatever they want to charge for without any notice nor specific consent to the charges?

Just like if a waitress asked to clear your dishes away when your don't eating. If I am going to be charged for that, she has to say so or it's free - rather then when I get the bill there is $40 for removing dishes charges.

Only an idiot would think a lap dance is free. It is the responsibility of the person to ask "how much"? Do you buy something off a rack before looking at the price tag just because someone wants to sell you the item?

joko104 · Mar 7, 2014

MaggieD said:
Even one drink. If a bar serves an obviously intoxicated person one drink, he's violated the Dram Act.

The Dram Act probably is the most disregarded law in the country. :lol:

A difficult one to comply with too. Imagine if they had a Dram Act for food? No selling food to a person who's eaten enough. :2razz:

Should strip clubs be more regulated?

CalGun

joko104

joko104

Lutherf

MaggieD

joko104

vesper

radcen

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joko104

MaggieD

MaggieD

joko104

radcen

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vesper

MaggieD

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

joko104

MaggieD

radcen

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joko104

notquiteright

Ockham

Noblesse oblige

joko104

vesper

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