E-cigarettes: Big Tobacco's next big move?.....

Gathomas88 said:

E-Cigarettes honestly kind of scared me when I used them. I'm only a social smoker usually (in uniform, while drinking, etca), so I don't have a particularly high tolerance for regular cigarettes. They taste like ****, and If I do more than two or three in a single go, I start feeling nauseous.

With an E-cigarette, on the other hand, I can easily find myself puffing for an hour or more with no problems. It's pretty much nicotine overload. :lol:

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You're smoking the wrong cigarettes then........................

Don't buy the overpriced crap at the convenience stores and tobacco outlets. I'm switching soon myself...

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I worked in the e-cigarette world for a while, so I like to think my opinion on this is very informed.

And I'll start you out with this: I exited by whistle-blowing and selling all of my materials, which I spent quite a bit of money on.

E-cigarettes are unregulated. The parts are manufactured in the slummiest part of the Chinese factory district. The juice is made by people who mostly don't know anything about biochemical safety (don't be fooled by "American-made juice" -- this is often the worst of all, made by complete amateurs in Mickey Mouse operations in their basements).

As they stand, I think they're profoundly dangerous and the industry should be ashamed of itself for making people think it's all safe and above-board when nothing could be further from the truth.

And it's an absolute shame, because based on my experience, e-cigarettes work better than any other quit-smoking aid in existence. Unfortunately, it could be trading one health risk for another.

E-cigarettes, as of now, are not part of Big Tobacco. They're their own thing, and it's a pity they aren't defining themselves by safety standards. They're just trying to distract everyone from the total lack of standards with weird-looking mods and new flavors of juice containing dangerous additives.

I can go into more detail if anyone wants, but it's a long and technical rant.

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Actually RJ Reynolds just started it's own e-cig brand, and blu is owned by Lorillard.

Bonzai said:

You're smoking the wrong cigarettes then........................

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I tend to stick with "cowboy killers" and lights. Pretty standard, really. :shrug:

wolfsgirl said:

Actually RJ Reynolds just started it's own e-cig brand, and blu is owned by Lorillard.

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Ah, I want aware of that. It's been a while. Not surprising.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Ah, I want aware of that. It's been a while. Not surprising.

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They are making a big move into the market.

I almost forgot to mention: Ladies and Gentlemen, I have been informed that...

The e-joint exists. One can supposedly purchase THC oil in states where such is legal and load the e-cig up with the equivalent of a packet of joints.

Florida is missing out. We have a vote coming in 2014.

Goshin said:

Don't buy the overpriced crap at the convenience stores and tobacco outlets. I'm switching soon myself...

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I got my 'eGo-T' (with a USB charger only) for 30 bucks with a free ($9) bottle of oil. This badboy is hitting like a champ and I feel better already. Though, it appears buying online is considerably cheaper.

wolfsgirl said:

They are making a big move into the market.

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Scary.

I will come back to this.

Goshin said:

Don't buy the overpriced crap at the convenience stores and tobacco outlets. I'm switching soon myself...

Click to expand...

Please gimme some time to tell you why you may want to rethink that, or at least take some steps to keep yourself safer.

MMC said:

Heya SAM :2wave: .....thanks for the info. Feel free to expound on what you like. Especially if you think there are safety concerns people should know of. As always, your thoughts are appreciated.

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Goshin said:

Don't buy the overpriced crap at the convenience stores and tobacco outlets. I'm switching soon myself...

Click to expand...

Ok, here we go. Be warned. This is so massive it required 2 posts. But if you're thinking of getting into e-cigarettes, you owe it to yourself to read it.

Before I start, remember the circumstances under which I left? Yeah. So I am going to have to avoid implicating specific businesses or people. I'm sorry; I can't give you any further direction than I am below. My recommendation is to check out e-cig spots online and KEEP YOUR HEAD ON STRAIGHT. Keep in mind most of them are being blind-sided by these things.

Don't take this onto the forums and debate them. You will not win, and you'll be branded as a troll. Just keep it in your head as you look at your options.

I'm gonna break this into a few parts. Chinese "cig-a-like" e-cigarettes, atomizers/cartomizers/tanks, mods, juice, regulation and harm reduction methods including alternatives.

Alright. Cig-a-likes. These are the ones most people start with. Some of them, like Blu, are over-priced junk that don't even work right. Some of them, like 510's and Kr808's are actually reasonably function.

But they're all made in China. This is also where almost all atomizers, tanks, and cartomizers come from, as well as eGo's and their look-a-likes. Specifically, most are made in Shenzhen.

90% of the time you hear of a dangerous product that's being recalled or has hurt someone, guess where it came from? Shenzhen. This place is notorious for rock-bottom, no-oversight manufacturing.

Now, the anatomy of a cig-a-like. The long part is the battery. Yes, they are failure-prone. DOA's are extremely common.

And that is the absolute LEAST of your concerns. Of more concern is what goes on that battery.

Atomizers/cartomizers/tanks.

Atomizers first.

Atomizers are basically a metal coil wrapped in filament with a mesh bridge over the top, designed to soak up juice from the mouthpiece you put on top of it. You are literally breathing fumes off of hot metal and some kind of filler material.

The coil is made of nichrome. Nichrome has never been proven safe to inhale from in the first place, but if you add in unpredictable manufacturing and possible break-down (and there is -- lots of DOA's here too), the risk compounds.

Cartomizers. Oh, man, these are bad.

Similar concept to the atomizers, but the filler that holds the juice is wrapped AROUND the heating coil. Yes, really.

Manufactures swear up and down it's engineered not to burn, but that is COMPLETE bull****. I have a picture somewhere of one of these coils actually lighting on fire. I have helped dozens of people take apart their cartomizers, only to reveal scorched filler, made of some mystery substance. And they were inhaling that.

Even with cautious refilling technique, cartomizers WILL burn. Do not use them.

Tanks. These are literally receptacles into which you pour juice. They have some kind of wick that draws down the juice to the coil, and it's supposed to be a great solution to all-day vaping without bringing juice.

Multiple problems with these. One is just plain crappy manufacturing. Even 6 or 7 generations in, if you got a pack of 5, at least 2 of them just wouldn't work well enough to use. Around gen 3, they actually sent extra wicking material in the box. So that YOU could fix their broken product. They knowingly shipped broken product.

The second problem, again, is materials. These things always smell like some kind of noxious glue out of the box. What is it? Good luck finding a straight answer, but do you want to breath it into your lungs?

Mods.

These are e-cigarettes that look like some kind of crazy machine. Generally, they have removable recharging batteries. Some go up to higher voltages. For comparison, your average cig-a-like is between 3.2 and 3.7 volts. Some mods go as high as 6 volts. Often, this is achieved by battery stacking. These can be made anywhere -- they're usually a small businesses people run from their homes.

Some mods are extremely well made. Others are very badly made. Right now, there is a recall going on, because apparently a business shipped a bunch of dangerous mods. I will leave you to your Googling to find specifics.

Here's what you need to know about mods in a nutshell, in order for you to be at all qualified to purchase them, because the fact is, a lot of these businesses won't tell you what best practice is and there have been cases where people have had mods blow up in their face, causing serious injury.

- You need to understand battery venting, and your mod needs to have something that allows it.
- You need to understand amperage, volts, and protected vs. unprotected batteries.
- You need to understand the risks of stacking and higher voltage.
- And you need to understand the chemistry of juice. Which brings me to...

JUICE. IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE, READ THIS.

Where do I even start? *sigh*

I'll start with just where it comes from. The cheapest juice is made in China, usually called Dekang, and usually comes with a cig-a-like, though you can also buy bottles online. Composition varies considerably from batch to batch. Processing methods are basically unknown. All kinds of people report strange smells and reactions. I wouldn't touch it. In fact, even when I was neck deep in the industry, I never did.

Other juices come from small businesses scattered around the world. There's lots in America. Most of these people are complete amateurs with no background in chemical safety. Many of them are making this stuff in their basement. I know. I've been to their shops.

Ok. Composition of juice. Generally, it is nicotine, flavoring (usually just bakery flavoring), and propylene glycol (PG) and/or vegetable glycerin (VG).

Sounds simple, right? Hold your horses.

We're gonna hit these one at a time, because this **** gets really complicated really fast.

Nicotine first. Some people buy this to make their own juice. You buy it diluted to some degree in PG and/or VG, with strength given in milligrams.

Nicotine is very dangerous, even diluted. Keep it out of reach of children and pets. Do not buy 100mg nicotine juice unless you REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

So where does this nicotine come from? Well, I can tell you where people are told it comes from. Various reliable pharmaceutical companies and other consumer corporations.

But based on my experience, which I'll share in a moment, I think they're either lying, or they're paying bottom dollar for left-overs.

I was once at a business when they received a shipment of nicotine juice (100mg, used to dilute, being prepared by people who have no idea about chemical safety and probably barely passed high school math).

The moment they opened the bottles, the entire room stank. It was giving the workers headaches. I had to leave the room. I begged the owner to shut down shop and wait for the next supply.

They didn't listen. Apparently they started getting tons of complaints about people experiencing stomach problems and nausea when they used the juice.

They did not recall it. They said it was "in their heads." And let me tell you right now, that is absolute bull****. That juice was rotten. And they didn't care enough to do the right thing.

This is not the first time something like this has happened. It happened many times at different companies while I was in the loop.

Keep in mind, this is a luxury "American-made" juice company.

So where does nicotine come from? I ain't gonna lie. I don't know, because I don't buy their story for a minute.

I'm going to go to PG and VG now, because flavoring is the most complicated part of all this.

So, PG and VG. Are they safe?

PG is probably safe. It is used as a carrier in asthma medications and fog machines. PG has been inhaled for decades with no observed serious effects, but it does make some people's throat scratchy, and others are allergic to it. It kicks strong, but it has piddly vapor production compared to...

VG. Is VG safe to inhale? We really don't know. It's thicker and it softens the hit considerably, but produces TONS of vapor. Some people report problems with phlegm and coughing when using VG.

Ok. Flavoring. Oh my god, where to even begin...

"Flavoring" sounds simple enough, but in every flavor are a hundred different ingredients. So when you read "flavoring" on the bottle, that tells you NOTHING.

First of all, these flavorings weren't made to inhale. They were made for food. They have never been comprehensively tested for inhalation safety. A lot of people experience issues with flavoring, and I did as well.

The use of these flavorings is completely careless on the part of the e-cig industry. And do you want to know exactly how careless it is?

A while ago, it was discovered that a lot of these flavorings contain ingredients that are known to cause severe lung damage. Even more severe than smoking. These chemicals were responsible for "popcorn lung" in factories. "Popcorn lung" is a degenerative lung disease that strikes fast -- sometimes the damage is done within 6 months -- and causes extreme lung impairment and death.

How did suppliers react?

Some pulled flavorings with this additive. Some said people were getting worked up over nothing because the concentration was low. Others lied to their customers about whether their juices had it.

But even if they had all pulled it immediately, here's my question for you.

Every flavoring has about a billion different ingredients in it. E-cigs didn't hit this country until 2006. And it took us about 5 years to figure out just ONE ingredient, and realize it's dangerous.

How long is it going to take for us to find another one, and are you willing to put your lungs at risk while you wait?

Suppliers are keeping these things secret on purpose. Some of them actually have been doing testing, but more often than not, it doesn't work in their favor. So they simply never release the data.

And they can get away with that because...

Regulations

There are none.

I have literally stood there while an inspector for OSHA checked out a juice making operation, and the dude couldn't have been more incompetent if you put a bag over his head.

Because they don't know what they're looking for.

There are no official guidelines for e-cigarette and juice safety. There's no boxes to tick, no tests to run, so basically, they just walk in there, see if it looks clean, and if it does, they shrug their shoulders and say "looks good."

There is absolutely no regulation in the e-cigarette world.

At this point, I want you to scan this entire post again. Notice that I spend most of it talking about small businesses selling "luxury" products, not cheap Chinese crap. These companies are ignorant of their own industry, and some of them will outright lie to you. If that is how bad the best companies are, imagine how bad the rest must be.

To be continued -- HARM REDUCTION AND ALTERNATIVES

Continued!

Harm reduction

I strongly advise against using e-cigarettes at this point in time. But I understand the desperation some smokers feel.

If you have gotten through all this and you are still determined to use e-cigarettes, here is the best advice I can offer you. I won't even pretend that this will keep you 100% safe, but in my opinion, this is the best you can do.

I strongly advise using atomizers ONLY, which you have de-bridged AND de-wicked. You can find out how to do this on YouTube -- just search my terms. You will need to use this with a drip tip. I suggest steel or glass. To make de-bridging and de-wicking easier, I suggest an exposed atomizer like the 306. The 306 is also compatible with any 510 connector.

I do not suggest higher voltages. The greater heat could cause degradation of the atomizer or juice, and you could inhale that much more crap. It's also not as safe for the batteries.

I suggest cleaning your atomizers with water only, either in a 24 hour soak, 24 dry, or in a jewelry cleaner.

I suggest avoiding flavoring completely, and sticking to PG-only juice.

Also, go with the lowest nicotine level you can tolerate. You'd be surprised how low you can go.

And finally, weening yourself off as fast as possible. You would be amazed HOW EASY this is. It's much easier than cigarettes. Keep in mind, you're only using one addictive chemical, not half a dozen like in real cigarettes. It is amazingly painless to quit e-cigarettes.

Alternatives

If all the conventional methods have failed for you, or you don't think you can ever totally quit and you are looking to use your e-cig indefinitely, here are some alternatives that are much lower harm than cigarettes.

Snus. The Swedish kind, not that cheap Camel crap. It's like a little tobacco tea bag.

Snuff. Weird, but it's a quick fix and it works well.

That's all, folks. As the Beetles would say, I GOT BLISTAHS ON MY FINGAHS.

Smoke, Thank you for your informative posts. This is why I always tell people to know who your supplies are coming from. I personally know the people that I order my liquid from. Not just online, but face to face. These are people I see every month at local vapemeets, have gone to their house, etc.

I was actually effected by the most recent recall of a mod. It was a raffle prize, and something I would not have bought for myself, based on the company that makes it. I used it a couple of times, and put it back in the box. The day after the recall I got a call from the company that put it in the raffle. They told me to destroy the device, and gave me a store credit. There are responsible vendors out there, many more than you think. Vapers are a very tight group, and word of mouth travels fast. If a company is shady we let others know.
Atomizers, and cartos, are still made in China for the most part, but a recent surge in rebuildables gives me hope. Now many people actually build their own coils, you can control the materials that go into your equipment.
I do agree that there needs to be regulations, and most good companies have gotten together with CASSAA to set regs.

As with anything people need to do their research.

MMC said:

E-cigarette sales could double this year to $1 billion, analysts say. The market for e-cigarettes has grown from thousands of users in 2006 to several million e-cigarette smokers worldwide.

E-cigarettes are now being sold by all of the nation's major tobacco companies. The final holdout, tobacco company Altria Group Inc., parent company of Philip Morris and maker of Marlboro cigarettes, announced today they would sell e-cigarettes under the MarkTen brand starting in August.

Electronic cigarettes are battery-powered devices that heat a liquid nicotine solution, creating vapor that users inhale. Devotees say e-cigarettes address both the addictive and behavioral aspects of smoking. Smokers get their nicotine without the more than 4,000 chemicals found in regular cigarettes. And they get to hold something shaped like a cigarette, while puffing and exhaling something that looks like smoke.

More than 45 million Americans smoke cigarettes, and about half of smokers try to quit each year, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The e-cigarette, made in China by a contract manufacturer, is expected to sell for about $9.50. Prices for additional cartridges and recharging kit were not available. The liquid for the cartridges is being produced in the U.S.....snip~

E-cigarettes: Big Tobacco's next big move? - CSMonitor.com

I picked up a Couple of these E-Cigarettes to try and quit smoking. Picked up one of the Blue and I have another one where it decreases the nicotine down with the filters. The Cig is heavier than a regular cigarette and it is the same when held in ones mouth on their lip. When I have used it.....I rarely ever just hold the E-cig in my mouth like I do with other Cigarettes.

Looks like the Tobacco companies are going to make a push with these. Although I don't know why we are getting them from China. I am trying with these first. As I didn't want to get put on any medications to quit. Although the Price here around me has been 10 dollars for the Blue E-Cig. The other with the interchangeable filters costs more. Like 29.95 on Sale.

Cigarettes around Chicago are going for like 6,7,8 bucks a pack. Maybe even more in the heart of the city. How much are Cigarettes By where you live. What do people think about these E-Cigs?

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I used to be a smoker and still am dependent on nicotine, and tried to quit several times.

A friend introduced me to a "vaporizer" the other day (I assume it's a more fancy version of these e-cigs -- correct me if I'm wrong). It was interesting ... but not really attractive for me: The equipment is rather expensive, it's still not determined how unhealthy the ingredients are compared to cigs, and the whole process of running that thing seem rather complicated (I guess that's not the case with simple e-cigs).

But then, I'm on nicotine chewing gums anyway, for almost 3 years now. It was very easy for me to switch from cigs to chewing gums, but I've still not managed to get rid of the gums. I didn't have a relapse. And while nicotine via chewing gums is not healthy, it's at least much more healthy than smoking -- better for the lungs, no ugly smell, no bothering of other people, slightly cheaper than tobacco. Not sure if I'll manage to quit the gums anytime soon, but at least I'm not smoking anymore.

wolfsgirl said:

Smoke, Thank you for your informative posts. This is why I always tell people to know who your supplies are coming from. I personally know the people that I order my liquid from. Not just online, but face to face. These are people I see every month at local vapemeets, have gone to their house, etc.

I was actually effected by the most recent recall of a mod. It was a raffle prize, and something I would not have bought for myself, based on the company that makes it. I used it a couple of times, and put it back in the box. The day after the recall I got a call from the company that put it in the raffle. They told me to destroy the device, and gave me a store credit. There are responsible vendors out there, many more than you think. Vapers are a very tight group, and word of mouth travels fast. If a company is shady we let others know.
Atomizers, and cartos, are still made in China for the most part, but a recent surge in rebuildables gives me hope. Now many people actually build their own coils, you can control the materials that go into your equipment.
I do agree that there needs to be regulations, and most good companies have gotten together with CASSAA to set regs.

As with anything people need to do their research.

Click to expand...

I don't mean to dishearten you, wolfsgirl... but I wouldn't even trust a business I "knew." I would still be very strict about all the harm reduction stuff, even if I were comfortable with my supplier.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I don't mean to dishearten you, wolfsgirl... but I wouldn't even trust a business I "knew." I would still be very strict about all the harm reduction stuff, even if I were comfortable with my supplier.

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You won't dishearten me. I have been vaping for 3 years. My breathing has improved, my blood pressure is back to normal, I'm losing weight because I can actually exercise, and my doc says that I am in better physical shape that he has ever seen me.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but for me it works.

wolfsgirl said:

You won't dishearten me. I have been vaping for 3 years. My breathing has improved, my blood pressure is back to normal, I'm losing weight because I can actually exercise, and my doc says that I am in better physical shape that he has ever seen me.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but for me it works.

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Thanks the only test at this point.

I think part of own caution is due to my youth. The risk analysis is definitely different for people who ain't in their 20's anymore, but being informed is no less important.

I believe the tobacco companies are already prepared to go into the pot business, they're just waiting until they see what happens between the feds and the states that have legalizeds it.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Ok, here we go. Be warned. This is so massive it required 2 posts. But if you're thinking of getting into e-cigarettes, you owe it to yourself to read it.

Before I start, remember the circumstances under which I left? Yeah. So I am going to have to avoid implicating specific businesses or people. I'm sorry; I can't give you any further direction than I am below. My recommendation is to check out e-cig spots online and KEEP YOUR HEAD ON STRAIGHT. Keep in mind most of them are being blind-sided by these things.

Don't take this onto the forums and debate them. You will not win, and you'll be branded as a troll. Just keep it in your head as you look at your options.

I'm gonna break this into a few parts. Chinese "cig-a-like" e-cigarettes, atomizers/cartomizers/tanks, mods, juice, regulation and harm reduction methods including alternatives.

Alright. Cig-a-likes. These are the ones most people start with. Some of them, like Blu, are over-priced junk that don't even work right. Some of them, like 510's and Kr808's are actually reasonably function.

But they're all made in China. This is also where almost all atomizers, tanks, and cartomizers come from, as well as eGo's and their look-a-likes. Specifically, most are made in Shenzhen.

..........



PG is probably safe. It is used as a carrier in asthma medications and fog machines. PG has been inhaled for decades with no observed serious effects, but it does make some people's throat scratchy, and others are allergic to it. It kicks strong, but it has piddly vapor production compared to...

VG. Is VG safe to inhale? We really don't know. It's thicker and it softens the hit considerably, but produces TONS of vapor. Some people report problems with phlegm and coughing when using VG.

Ok. Flavoring. Oh my god, where to even begin...

"Flavoring" sounds simple enough, but in every flavor are a hundred different ingredients. So when you read "flavoring" on the bottle, that tells you NOTHING.

First of all, these flavorings weren't made to inhale. They were made for food. They have never been comprehensively tested for inhalation safety. A lot of people experience issues with flavoring, and I did as well.

The use of these flavorings is completely careless on the part of the e-cig industry. And do you want to know exactly how careless it is?

A while ago, it was discovered that a lot of these flavorings contain ingredients that are known to cause severe lung damage. Even more severe than smoking. These chemicals were responsible for "popcorn lung" in factories. "Popcorn lung" is a degenerative lung disease that strikes fast -- sometimes the damage is done within 6 months -- and causes extreme lung impairment and death.

How did suppliers react?

Some pulled flavorings with this additive. Some said people were getting worked up over nothing because the concentration was low. Others lied to their customers about whether their juices had it.

But even if they had all pulled it immediately, here's my question for you.

Every flavoring has about a billion different ingredients in it. E-cigs didn't hit this country until 2006. And it took us about 5 years to figure out just ONE ingredient, and realize it's dangerous.

How long is it going to take for us to find another one, and are you willing to put your lungs at risk while you wait?

..... etc etc "Popcorn lung" etc etc SCARY SCARY THINGS....

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Holey Hannah.


My buddy told me it was just water vapor with a little flavoring, if you got the zero-nicotine juice.

I figured "what harm can flavored water vapor do?"


Dayum... thank you, Smoke. I'm going to have to look into this and maybe rethink this whole idea...

Goshin said:

Holey Hannah.


My buddy told me it was just water vapor with a little flavoring, if you got the zero-nicotine juice.

I figured "what harm can flavored water vapor do?"


Dayum... thank you, Smoke. I'm going to have to look into this and maybe rethink this whole idea...

Click to expand...

A lot of people have that misconception. The ironic thing is that there's practically no water in it at all.

You're very welcome. It's sad, because they work so well, but I think there are safer ways to help people kick the habit.

The industry is scary unregulated with so many risks, and people just have no idea.