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The Duggars Announce They Are Expecting Their 20th Child

evanescence said:
And yes, Josie, it is scripted.
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Why are you saying that so matter-of-factly? It's your opinion, unless you're somehow privy to information from the production team....

And, really, do you honestly think they give these people a script to read off of while going about their daily lives? Heyyyy...if THAT'S true then I betcha bucks that Michelle really only gave birth to maybe 5 of those kids. The rest are just extras for the show! They're actors! Those sneaky people.....
 
Josie said:
Please show me evidence that they are "screwed up". Or are you going to make that up too?
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Check out some cult documentaries. Seriously. Some of them are just like the Duggars. Cults are not always massive organizations that recruit. Sometimes they're families, sometimes they're very small, etc. They can have almost any configuration.

You learn to recognize what these people are like. Their smile is different. Their insistence that they're happy is almost desperate. They lose any consideration for their own well-being (like Michelle has). They show weird signs of something going on - like the boy who chews and spits in the video you posted.

I reckon there will be some very interesting autobiographies in about 10 or 20 years. I also reckon Michelle is going to die prematurely. She's destroying her body.
 
Josie said:
Why are you saying that so matter-of-factly? It's your opinion, unless you're somehow privy to information from the production team....

And, really, do you honestly think they give these people a script to read off of while going about their daily lives? Heyyyy...if THAT'S true then I betcha bucks that Michelle really only gave birth to maybe 5 of those kids. The rest are just extras for the show! They're actors! Those sneaky people.....
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It's scripted. They tell their kids what to say, and what not to say. Guaranteed.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Check out some cult documentaries. Seriously. Some of them are just like the Duggars. Cults are not always massive organizations that recruit. Sometimes they're families, sometimes they're very small, etc. They can have almost any configuration.

You learn to recognize what these people are like. Their smile is different. Their insistence that they're happy is almost desperate. They lose any consideration for their own well-being (like Michelle has). They show weird signs of something going on - like the boy who chews and spits in the video you posted.

I reckon there will be some very interesting autobiographies in about 10 or 20 years. I also reckon Michelle is going to die prematurely. She's destroying her body.
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You think the kid who chews up a pickle and spits it out to make "relish" is a sign that he's "screwed up"? LOL! You aren't around kids much, are ya?
 
evanescence said:
It's scripted. They tell their kids what to say, and what not to say. Guaranteed.
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Have you ever at any time been part of or worked closely with the production team of this show?
 
Josie said:
You think the kid who chews up a pickle and spits it out to make "relish" is a sign that he's "screwed up"? LOL! You aren't around kids much, are ya?
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At his age? It's attention-seeking. He probably doesn't get much attention from anyone but his older siblings, and several of them were gone at the time of that filming. Like others have said, do the simple math of how many hours there are in the day vs. how many kids they have. As someone else pointed out, listen to their own professions of how hard things where when they had 1/4th as many children.

Likewise, it is not normal for someone to continue to do something they know is going to seriously injure or kill them, the way Michelle is. They don't show her private medical visits, do they. They don't show the laundry list of things she's at risk for having had 19 children. Because the point of the show is to make money, not to show the reality. "Reality TV" is an oxymoron.

You're determined to believe this is normal... why? Because the TV says so?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
At his age? It's attention-seeking. He probably doesn't get much attention from anyone but his older siblings, and several of them were gone at the time of that filming. Like others have said, do the simple math of how many hours there are in the day vs. how many kids they have. As someone else pointed out, listen to their own professions of how hard things where when they had 1/4th as many children.

Likewise, it is not normal for someone to continue to do something they know is going to seriously injure or kill them, the way Michelle is. They don't show her private medical visits, do they. They don't show the laundry list of things she's at risk for having had 19 children. Because the point of the show is to make money, not to show the reality. "Reality TV" is an oxymoron.

You're determined to believe this is normal... why? Because the TV says so?
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It actually is normal for people to keep doing things that might seriously hurt themselves. People do it all the time everyday for various reasons.

However, Michelle isn't thinking about herself. She's completely selfless in this area. They believe each child is given to them by God and it's His will that they have these kids. They believe in letting go and just letting God do what He wishes in their lives. That means not obstructing the ability to have another baby even if that means it will harm her own body. She's not thinking about her own body, but God's will. I know that sounds very weird to some people who aren't around really devout religious people, but that IS normal for those who are.

Just because this family is different than society's "norms" doesn't mean they're fake. They're just different.
 
Josie said:
It actually is normal for people to keep doing things that might seriously hurt themselves. People do it all the time everyday for various reasons.

However, Michelle isn't thinking about herself. She's completely selfless in this area. They believe each child is given to them by God and it's His will that they have these kids. They believe in letting go and just letting God do what He wishes in their lives. That means not obstructing the ability to have another baby even if that means it will harm her own body. She's not thinking about her own body, but God's will. I know that sounds very weird to some people who aren't around really devout religious people, but that IS normal for those who are.

Just because this family is different than society's "norms" doesn't mean they're fake. They're just different.
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Being "selfless" to the point of being willing to leave your children motherless, or fatally injure your own child, is not normal. Especially not if you are purposefully placing yourself in that situation, rather than finding out after the fact. Sane people don't do things like that.

That is not selfless. That is crazy.

P.S. They are not simply "not obstructing" their ability to have children. They are relying on medical science to go past the limits. If they were simply "letting god," Michelle Duggar would be long dead, and so would at least one of her children (though probably more than that). She's had at least half a dozen C-sections. I have a hard time believing such a "devout" woman would do that unless it were medically necessary. But with so many holes punched in her abdomen, she's at extreme risk of hemorrhage and various other things, in addition to the general risk of pumping out that many children.

She's basically self-harming at this point. What she's doing is not something a reasonable person would do, and it is certainly not natural in any sense.
 
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Josie said:
It actually is normal for people to keep doing things that might seriously hurt themselves. People do it all the time everyday for various reasons.

However, Michelle isn't thinking about herself. She's completely selfless in this area. They believe each child is given to them by God and it's His will that they have these kids. They believe in letting go and just letting God do what He wishes in their lives. That means not obstructing the ability to have another baby even if that means it will harm her own body. She's not thinking about her own body, but God's will. I know that sounds very weird to some people who aren't around really devout religious people, but that IS normal for those who are.

Just because this family is different than society's "norms" doesn't mean they're fake. They're just different.
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Yeah, she is so selfless by having 20 children. Nothing is irresponsible about that. :roll:

Again, I'll remind everyone that there is a reason that as IQ goes up, the number of children people have goes down.
 
whysoserious said:
Again, I'll remind everyone that there is a reason that as IQ goes up, the number of children people have goes down.
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Please post your research on that one. :)
 
molten_dragon said:
It won't let me watch the first video.

Let's check out the second.

2:40 is some delightful audio of one of the older children calling 911 because something is wrong with the youngest baby. I wonder why mom or dad weren't the ones making that call? Whyever could that be?

In the first few minutes of the video, I hear a ton of mom talking about the baby, but what's shown is nothing but one of the older kids taking care of her. Culminating at 4:22 when the older kid is holding the little girl and picking up after mom, who's just standing there watching.

At 5:00 I see two of the younger boys asking the boom mike operator to get their toy down from where it's stuck rather than their parents. There's about 5 kids standing around watching him and neither of the parents is anywhere in sight.

at 9:18 dad admits that when mom is gone the older girls pretty much run things and he's probably just in the way.

At 10:15 one of the older daughters mentions that naptime is the only time that they have to do schoolwork. Could it be because they have to take care of 8 or 9 little kids the rest of the time?

At 11:05, the 5-year old girl is laying down for a nap on the floor in what appears to be some sort of closet or little hollow underneath the stairs.

At 12:46 mom says (talking about one of the older girls) "she'll make a great mom someday" then mentions something about the fact that the girl does a better job than she does.

Throughout that 15 minute video, dad was barely seen at all. Mom was there quite a bit, but the only interaction between her and her children was with the youngest. She talked about her a lot and paid a lot of attention to her. There was no footage of her interacting with the other kids except at the most superficial level.

That's not exactly helping your cause much.

And in general, it's clear that the show is edited and cut heavily. They're showing what they want to show, and who knows what's going on in the background that you can't see. I stand by what I said earlier.
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The parents are too busy making more kids.
 
Josie said:
Please post your research on that one. :)
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Obligatory Wiki overview:
Fertility and intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A little more specific:
New evidence for dysgenic fertility f... [Soc Biol. 1999 Spring-Summer] - PubMed - NCBI

Look for the section on "The Dysgenic Trend"
Stalking the Wild Taboo - Miller: Race, Socioeconomic Variables, and Intelligence

More:
http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2011/01/educational-attainment-and-fecundity-in.html

And more:
http://www.halfsigma.com/2006/07/iq_vs_age_and_d.html

These studies measure all kinds of different indicators of intelligence: straight IQ, "g," academic achievement, and vocabulary. All of them find the same thing: on average, smarter women have fewer kids.
 
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Josie said:
Please post your research on that one. :)
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Someone took care of most of it for me, but basic logic also helps. Here are a list of reasons why intelligence lowers birthing rates:

1) These people are often too busy to have many kids or kids at all.
2) These people tend to wait longer to have children.
3) These people understand population issues and realize that there is no longer a need to have large families (there was but industrialization has negated it).
4) These people use birth control.

In fact, there are many movies and books based on the idea that the intelligent don't bread enough and the less intelligent breed too much, which often leads to society being overrun by idiots and intelligence becoming extinct.

Here is a great article about afflictions faced by those with high IQs
Fertility and IQ have an inverse relationship
An inverse relationship was found between fertility and IQ, caused by the fact that low IQ women had more unwanted births than high IQ women. It was also shown that low IQ women had an elevated failure rate with any contraceptive method, and that the best way to control their fertility was to utilize exclusively permanent contraceptive methods administered by a physician.
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Another study finds a "small but statistically significant negative relationship between fertility and IQ"
A global study found the same inverse relationship between IQ and fertility
Many studies have found a small to moderate negative correlation between IQ and fertility rates. However, these studies have been limited to the United States and some European countries. The present study was a between-nation study using national IQ scores and national fertility rates. There were strong negative correlations found between national IQ and three national indicators of fertility.
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That's four studies on the first two pages of a Google search (so I didn't have to dig deep). Really, though, it's common sense.
 
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Josie said:
Meh. The middle kids often feel left out. My family had three kids and my brother (the middle kid) felt left out even though my mom stayed home too. I think it's fairly common no matter how many kids you have in the family. We can't know how the kids feel unless they voice their opinions on their show. We can only go by what we see from observing them. I see well-behaved, great kids. :shrug:
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Mel, you see kids that may or may not be brainwashed, locked in a prayer closet or sent off to sin camp if they do not appear well-behaved or buck the system that the parents have set up.

I have watched this show since it started and think the parents are good folks that are way too extreme in reguards to their religion and their children. Sadly? The children have to pay the price for their parents extreme views. They have robbed their kids of the fun they had as kids. Michelle used to be able to wear pants, play sports, wear bikinis and was a cheerleader for frig sake and none of those girls will ever get a chance at it unless they break free. The word buddy is used as a term to describe doing what Mom and Dad should be doing. The older girls are the REAL mothers. Michelle lost a lot of my respect when they took Josie out of this country on a trip and Josie had to have a doctor fly home with her. They act as if Josie is fine and she is not! She is still on Oxygen for f-sake!!!!!!!!! They should have never been taking this baby all over the place. :(

I could rant about this all night but my pill is kicking in. I will say this: I do think the Duggar parents love their kids and do not hate them. I just want their kids to have a REAL life outside of the Quiverfull movement and their parents thumb. I want to see them go to REAL colleges and out on real dates and stuff. I really do hope that Jill goes off to a REAL college to become a nurse. College Plus will not cut it. I feel Jill will never live her dream and be stuck there forever if something happens to Michelle. Not just Jill but the other older girls too. They may feel as if they need to stay if something happens to her. Sadly? I think most of them already feel the need to stay until some yucko comes along that Jim Bob deems worthy and marries them off:(
 
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Josie said:
It's almost as if we are so accustomed to seeing dysfunctional families that it's improbable that there's a family still out there that actually treats each other well, spends time together (and ENJOYS it) and isn't screaming at the top of their lungs how much they hate one another.
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You seem to be under a couple mistaken impressions here Josie.

First off is the assumption that their behavior when not on camera is identical to their behavior when on camera.

The second is the assumption because they're not getting into screaming matches and fistfights that there is no dysfunction in the family and no neglect happening.

You've still yet to answer why you feel the need to so strongly defend their neglectful behavior.
 
Josie said:
However, Michelle isn't thinking about herself. She's completely selfless in this area.
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The issue is that she's also not thinking of her 19 children who may have to grow up without of mother because of her self-destructive behavior.

Honestly, I don't hate these people. And I honestly don't think they've done that bad a job raising the ridiculous number of kids they have. I doubt most people could do much better. But that's kind of the point. No two people could properly care for 19 children. It's physically impossible. Some level of neglect is inherent to the situation.

It's really kind of sad when you think about it. Clearly they never dealt with the grief from Mom's miscarriage in a healthy manner, and it's like they're trying to fill that void with more kids. It's almost become an addiction. And I have no doubt that it's going to eventually end with either the death of Michelle, or the death of a baby.
 
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molten_dragon said:
You seem to be under a couple mistaken impressions here Josie.

First off is the assumption that their behavior when not on camera is identical to their behavior when on camera.

The second is the assumption because they're not getting into screaming matches and fistfights that there is no dysfunction in the family and no neglect happening.

You've still yet to answer why you feel the need to so strongly defend their neglectful behavior.
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1. I have yet to hear any proof to the contrary.

2. That's a major indicator of dysfunction. I fail to see any other signs of it either.

3. I don't defend neglectful behavior. I'm defending them because I truly believe they are a wonderful family who have created and raised loving, caring, productive citizens of this country. They don't deserve what some people say about them.
 
whysoserious said:
Yeah, she is so selfless by having 20 children. Nothing is irresponsible about that. :roll:

Again, I'll remind everyone that there is a reason that as IQ goes up, the number of children people have goes down.
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Well if she can pay for the kids. And doesn't neglect them... then its all good.
 
Josie said:
It's a conspiracy theory. The REAL Duggars aren't what we see on the TV.
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When's the last time we've seen anything "real" on TV. The Real World and all that BS is scripted as well. If you don't think there isn't some selective editing, then you're fooling yourself. Is it covering up some anger issue or whatever? Who really knows, probably not "issues" as they don't seem like folk who would lose their temper often; but it's possible to happen. You can't know since you aren't actually there and reality TV is not sufficient enough to produce a full data set.
 
Josie said:
Why are you saying that so matter-of-factly? It's your opinion, unless you're somehow privy to information from the production team....
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What reality TV show isn't?
 
Josie said:
Please post your research on that one. :)
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This is a well known corollary. Higher educated couples tend to have less children than lower educated ones. That doesn't mean that a well educated couple couldn't have a lot of children, they just tend not to.
 
Ikari said:
When's the last time we've seen anything "real" on TV. The Real World and all that BS is scripted as well. If you don't think there isn't some selective editing, then you're fooling yourself. Is it covering up some anger issue or whatever? Who really knows, probably not "issues" as they don't seem like folk who would lose their temper often; but it's possible to happen. You can't know since you aren't actually there and reality TV is not sufficient enough to produce a full data set.
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People believe what they wanna believe. Logic isn't a factor.
 
How is their 19th baby doing? Wasn't it born really sick and isn't it handicapped?
 
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