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Obamacare Haters Refuse to Accept Reality

jack, you post lying editorial after lying editorial. You cowardly cut and run from any discussion of actual facts. And you would rather see thousands of Americans suffer and die than accept Obamacare. Just because you live in a delusional bubble doesn't make it not hate



al queda whats thousands of Americans to suffer and die too. Speaking of lying editorials and cowardly cutting and running, how do you post this?



Jack, I showed you from your own "editorial" that repubicans sabotaged the coops. You cowardly cut and ran from that conversation. To now post a daily caller editorial to push the narrative even you know is false makes you dishonest. Dishonest, wants thousands of Americans to suffer and die. How do you call yourself an American?

Yawn. So, I guess you found no post of mine saying I hate Obamacare. Just another of your claims without foundation.
Please don't confuse "cutting and running" with moving on from a point conclusively made. I think you've been repeatedly whipped on the substance -- that's why you're always calling names.
The Repubs can't be guilty of sabotaging coops they had no hand in establishing.
 
I think you've been repeatedly whipped on the substance -- that's why you're always calling names.

Substance:

Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, an estimated 20 million people have gained health insurance. For the first time ever, more than 9 in 10 Americans now have health insurance.

Support substance: Vote Democratic.
 
Substance:

Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, an estimated 20 million people have gained health insurance. For the first time ever, more than 9 in 10 Americans now have health insurance.

Support substance: Vote Democratic.

Question is whether increased costs for individuals and lack of profitability for insurers make the system not viable.
 
Question is whether increased costs for individuals and lack of profitability for insurers make the system not viable.

Guess we'll find out, won't we? Guess we'll find out if our nation can afford to provide for its citizens what every other developed nation on Earth can.

Right now it's not looking good for the doubters. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2016/04/26/on-exchange-profitability/

Obamacare critics have spent a lot of energy trying to pretend that premiums on the exchanges have skyrocketed, but that's never been true. What is true is that premiums started below projections and have since risen moderately as insurers get a better grasp on their customer base. This is how competitive markets work: players enter the market with prices designed to attract market share; customers pick winners and losers; prices adjust over time; and some companies are successful while others drop out. Eventually you reach a rough equilibrium, which we're getting close to with Obamacare.

It's ironic (or something) that the problems conservatives are making such a fuss about are the result of precisely what they say they want: competitive insurance markets. Apparently Obamacare has produced a little more competition than they're comfortable with.
 
Guess we'll find out, won't we? Guess we'll find out if our nation can afford to provide for its citizens what every other developed nation on Earth can.

Right now it's not looking good for the doubters. https://www.balloon-juice.com/2016/04/26/on-exchange-profitability/

I've never been interested in what other countries provide. I believe health care is an individual responsibility. But that's really beside the point. If everything is going so well, why are insurers fleeing the coops?
 
Yawn. So, I guess you found no post of mine saying I hate Obamacare. Just another of your claims without foundation.
Please don't confuse "cutting and running" with moving on from a point conclusively made. I think you've been repeatedly whipped on the substance -- that's why you're always calling names.
The Repubs can't be guilty of sabotaging coops they had no hand in establishing.

Jack, the foundation is your non stop dishonest ranting at Obamacare. If you want to pretend that's not hate, you go right ahead. as far as your constant cutting and running, I didn't see where you acknowledged or even discussed the republicans sabotaging the coops. I didn't see where you acknowledged or even discussed that the word "bailout" is dishonest. All you did was flail at the fact that conservatives refuse to sign up for Obamacare out of some delusional and obedient hatred. yea jack, that's exactly what cutting and running looks like. And Jack, al queda cuts and runs too. They want thousands of Americans to suffer and die and they cut and run from the facts.
 
If everything is going so well, why are insurers fleeing the coops?

The co-ops are insurers. They're start-ups. Which means they don't have other lines of business to fall back on for reserves if anything goes wrong during their first years of operation. The rules for them have been changed in the middle of the game, which has been devastating for several of them.

They're not "fleeing," they've been pushed under by bad policy decisions made by the GOP Congress.
 
They're not "fleeing," they've been pushed under by bad policy decisions made by the GOP Congress.

Yeah.. "the GOP". :roll:


Forbes Welcome

Imagine how a business school class would react to their professor assigning them the task of planning a start-up, but with the restrictions that: 1) experts at other companies in its industry were barred from serving on its board; 2) it would have virtually no access to capital other than government loans; 3) it couldn’t use those funds to market its products, and 4) if successful, it couldn’t retain more than nominal profits to fund future growth?

Or, if you prefer:

CO-OP failures put spotlight on ACA’s many shortcomings | TheHill

The government took on this risky endeavor, ignoring warnings from the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and even some Democrats who supported the ACA, that the CO-OP program would fail. According to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, HHS predicted as early as 2011 that 36 percent of the loans would go unpaid. Similarly, in 2012, the Office of Management and Budget estimated taxpayers would lose 43 percent of the loans.

Yes, those dates were before Rubio ending the bailouts.
 
Last edited:
Yeah.. "the GOP". :roll:


Forbes Welcome

Or, if you prefer:

CO-OP failures put spotlight on ACA’s many shortcomings | TheHill

Yes, those dates were before Rubio ending the bailouts.

first off buck, its good to see you're still alive. I realize that time and reality have done to your dishonest narratives what facts and logic couldn't but for you to still obediently use the word "bailout" for reinsurance only proves your dishonesty. Jack and the other cons believe the lies. I know you don't. Someday you'll have to explain why you feel the need to constantly post things even you know are not true.
 
Jack, the foundation is your non stop dishonest ranting at Obamacare. If you want to pretend that's not hate, you go right ahead. as far as your constant cutting and running, I didn't see where you acknowledged or even discussed the republicans sabotaging the coops. I didn't see where you acknowledged or even discussed that the word "bailout" is dishonest. All you did was flail at the fact that conservatives refuse to sign up for Obamacare out of some delusional and obedient hatred. yea jack, that's exactly what cutting and running looks like. And Jack, al queda cuts and runs too. They want thousands of Americans to suffer and die and they cut and run from the facts.

I do not agree that "bailout" is unfair, and I do not agree that Repubs sabotaged anything.
 
I do not agree that "bailout" is unfair, and I do not agree that Repubs sabotaged anything.

wow jack, that's almost a discussion. This is a big step for you. While simply repeating your belief is better than the usual cutting and running, its still not debate. Could you at least explain how you define an insurance plan as a bailout? its not based on the financial condition of the company getting the payment. It was based on the health care needs of the people they insured. That alone puts you in a pretty big hole to climb out of to explain how its a bailout rather than insurance. The fact that is very similar to the plan they used for Bush's unfunded prescription drug giveaway only puts you deeper in the hole.

When Part D was first conceived, policymakers were concerned about whether insurers would be willing to participate in a program offering stand-alone drug plans to Medicare beneficiaries. As a result, several safeguards were put in place to limit plan’s financial risk in the program. Today, with nearly a decade of experience with Part D and a robust set of plan offerings, the Commission is exploring whether Part D’s risk sharing mechanisms are still structured in a way that makes sense.

Explainer: Risk sharing mechanisms in Part D

wow, subsidies and reinsurance. that's bad. oh that's right, conservatives weren't told to hate it so they didn't obediently hate it. And it was unfunded. Obamacare reduces the deficit and conservatives still hate it. yea, the hole just got deeper didn't it. sorry about that.
 
wow jack, that's almost a discussion. This is a big step for you. While simply repeating your belief is better than the usual cutting and running, its still not debate. Could you at least explain how you define an insurance plan as a bailout? its not based on the financial condition of the company getting the payment. It was based on the health care needs of the people they insured. That alone puts you in a pretty big hole to climb out of to explain how its a bailout rather than insurance. The fact that is very similar to the plan they used for Bush's unfunded prescription drug giveaway only puts you deeper in the hole.

When Part D was first conceived, policymakers were concerned about whether insurers would be willing to participate in a program offering stand-alone drug plans to Medicare beneficiaries. As a result, several safeguards were put in place to limit plan’s financial risk in the program. Today, with nearly a decade of experience with Part D and a robust set of plan offerings, the Commission is exploring whether Part D’s risk sharing mechanisms are still structured in a way that makes sense.

Explainer: Risk sharing mechanisms in Part D

wow, subsidies and reinsurance. that's bad. oh that's right, conservatives weren't told to hate it so they didn't obediently hate it. And it was unfunded. Obamacare reduces the deficit and conservatives still hate it. yea, the hole just got deeper didn't it. sorry about that.

It's a bailout because it's financial aid outside normal operations.
Medicare Part D is the only part of Medicare that reduces overall health care costs.
 
When Part D was first conceived, policymakers were concerned about whether insurers would be willing to participate in a program offering stand-alone drug plans to Medicare beneficiaries. As a result, several safeguards were put in place to limit plan’s financial risk in the program. Today, with nearly a decade of experience with Part D and a robust set of plan offerings, the Commission is exploring whether Part D’s risk sharing mechanisms are still structured in a way that makes sense.

Explainer: Risk sharing mechanisms in Part D

"Megan and Andrew Sullivan are having a squabble about how much it cost (and here). I would remind everyone of this recent research result:
In spite of its relatively low benefit levels, the Medicare Part D benefit generate $3.5 billion of annual static deadweight loss reduction, and at least $2.8 billion of annual value from extra innovation. These two components alone cover 87% of the social cost of publicly financing the benefit.
And here's another research result:
Overall, a $1 increase in prescription drug spending is associated with a $2.06 reduction in Medicare spending.
Both papers are from very reputable sources. Left-wingers focus on the "giveaways" in this plan and conservatives focus on the cost or maybe they don't walk to talk about it at all. It's a little late to go through all the usual pro and con arguments on the policy as a whole. I'd just like to note that – relative to its reputation – the Medicare prescription drug benefit is one of the most underrated government programs of our time. . . ."

The cost of the Medicare prescription drug benefit - Marginal ...

marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/.../the-c...


Marginal Revolution


Sep 15, 2009 - I'd just like to note that – relative to its reputation – the Medicare prescription drug benefit is one of the most underrated government programs of ...
 
It's a bailout because it's financial aid outside normal operations.
Medicare Part D is the only part of Medicare that reduces overall health care costs.

again, I give you credit for attempting a discussion but it would help if you limited the discussion to things that are true. It wasn't aid. payments were not based the financial condition of the company. It was based on how sick the enrollees were. And as it was insurance, insurers had to pay a premium. It was insurance just like it was for Medicare part D. But you weren't instructed to call that a "bailout" so you didn't obediently hate it.

And you're going to have to back up the "the only part of Medicare that reduces overall health care costs".
 
again, I give you credit for attempting a discussion but it would help if you limited the discussion to things that are true. It wasn't aid. payments were not based the financial condition of the company. It was based on how sick the enrollees were. And as it was insurance, insurers had to pay a premium. It was insurance just like it was for Medicare part D. But you weren't instructed to call that a "bailout" so you didn't obediently hate it.

And you're going to have to back up the "the only part of Medicare that reduces overall health care costs".

Already did. Please see #438.
 
again, I give you credit for attempting a discussion but it would help if you limited the discussion to things that are true. It wasn't aid. payments were not based the financial condition of the company. It was based on how sick the enrollees were. And as it was insurance, insurers had to pay a premium. It was insurance just like it was for Medicare part D. But you weren't instructed to call that a "bailout" so you didn't obediently hate it.

It doesn't matter what it was based on. It was a funding requirement outside forecast operations. In other words, a bailout.
 
Already did. Please see #438.

just an fyi, if I post something one minute after you post something, it means I was probably typing as you posted. anyhoo, lets review what you think you've proven.

Overall, a $1 increase in prescription drug spending is associated with a $2.06 reduction in Medicare spending.
[/INDENT]
Both papers are from very reputable sources. Left-wingers focus on the "giveaways" in this plan and conservatives focus on the cost or maybe they don't walk to talk about it at all. It's a little late to go through all the usual pro and con arguments on the policy as a whole. I'd just like to note that – relative to its reputation – the Medicare prescription drug benefit is one of the most underrated government programs of our time. . . ."

The cost of the Medicare prescription drug benefit - Marginal ...

Sep 15, 2009 - I'd just like to note that – relative to its reputation – the Medicare prescription drug benefit is one of the most underrated government programs of ...

first off, you posted an editorial with no comment. You should post what your point was. but jack, just like Obamacare, medicare part D has a cost. Unlike Obamacare, it was just dumped into the general fund. 60 billion was spent in the first year. Do you see anything resembling a 60 billion drop in medicare costs in 2006 or 2007. So the paper is making a point about some small part of medicare or its lying. Here’s the paper.

“Overall, a $1 increase in prescription drug spending is associated with a $2.06 reduction in Medicare spending. “

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13358.pdf

So to be clear jack, we spent 60 billion on prescription drugs in 2006 then medicare spending should have gone down 60 billion. Medicare + 60 – 2x60 = Medicare -60. There was no drastic drop or change in medicare spending in 2006 or 2007. this explains it quite well.

“After reviewing recent research, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that a 1 percent increase in the number of prescriptions filled by beneficiaries would cause Medicare’s spending on medical services to fall by roughly one-fifth of 1 percent”

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43741-MedicalOffsets-11-29-12.pdf

But jack this is good, its actual debate. I'm sure there was a savings but the fact is, Medicare part d was an unfunded benefit with a reinsurance program.
 
"I would remind everyone of this recent research result:
In spite of its relatively low benefit levels, the Medicare Part D benefit generate $3.5 billion of annual static deadweight loss reduction, and at least $2.8 billion of annual value from extra innovation. These two components alone cover 87% of the social cost of publicly financing the benefit.​


jack, here's a good tip for future debates. When an editorial says something in a vague or complicated way, there's a good chance its trying to convey the impression of a fact rather than a fact. I don't know what the point is about "stated deadweight loss reduction" and I bet nobody does. And maybe there is some savings from innovation but jack, those components "cover 87% of the social cost of publicly financing the benefit". In a longwinded vague way, its saying those things pay the interest on the benefit. "financing" is "borrowing money". Yea, it was an unfunded benefit but its all good because "something something" covers the interest cost of the benefit. If you have another interpretation of "social cost of publicly financing the benefit" I'd like to hear it.

again, this is good debate. Just work on the quality of the editorials and don't fall for the first one you think tells you what you want to believe.​
 
just an fyi, if I post something one minute after you post something, it means I was probably typing as you posted. anyhoo, lets review what you think you've proven.



first off, you posted an editorial with no comment. You should post what your point was. but jack, just like Obamacare, medicare part D has a cost. Unlike Obamacare, it was just dumped into the general fund. 60 billion was spent in the first year. Do you see anything resembling a 60 billion drop in medicare costs in 2006 or 2007. So the paper is making a point about some small part of medicare or its lying. Here’s the paper.

“Overall, a $1 increase in prescription drug spending is associated with a $2.06 reduction in Medicare spending. “

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13358.pdf

So to be clear jack, we spent 60 billion on prescription drugs in 2006 then medicare spending should have gone down 60 billion. Medicare + 60 – 2x60 = Medicare -60. There was no drastic drop or change in medicare spending in 2006 or 2007. this explains it quite well.

“After reviewing recent research, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that a 1 percent increase in the number of prescriptions filled by beneficiaries would cause Medicare’s spending on medical services to fall by roughly one-fifth of 1 percent”

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43741-MedicalOffsets-11-29-12.pdf

But jack this is good, its actual debate. I'm sure there was a savings but the fact is, Medicare part d was an unfunded benefit with a reinsurance program.

The point I was making was the point in the link. Nothing else needed.
 
jack, here's a good tip for future debates. When an editorial says something in a vague or complicated way, there's a good chance its trying to convey the impression of a fact rather than a fact. I don't know what the point is about "stated deadweight loss reduction" and I bet nobody does. And maybe there is some savings from innovation but jack, those components "cover 87% of the social cost of publicly financing the benefit". In a longwinded vague way, its saying those things pay the interest on the benefit. "financing" is "borrowing money". Yea, it was an unfunded benefit but its all good because "something something" covers the interest cost of the benefit. If you have another interpretation of "social cost of publicly financing the benefit" I'd like to hear it.

again, this is good debate. Just work on the quality of the editorials and don't fall for the first one you think tells you what you want to believe.

You should not parade your inability to follow the analysis.
 
I've never been interested in what other countries provide. I believe health care is an individual responsibility. But that's really beside the point. If everything is going so well, why are insurers fleeing the coops?

The success or failure of coops are not indicative of the success of the ACA overall. It's a side issue. It affects about 500,000 people. So instead of 30 million people switching health plans, 30.5 million will. Big whoop. And, because of the ACA, people can shop for new plans pretty easily.

(Oh, why do so many switch health plans each year? Mostly (about 68 percent) because they changed jobs or their employer decided to change carriers.)

If you disagree, please share your national numbers which indicate the certain, imminent demise of the ACA which conservatives have been predicting since its inception.

(Oh yes, and by the way, Paul Krugman, whom conservatives tend to despise because he's an unapologetic Keynesian, predicted the demise of the coops way back in 2009: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=0)
 
The success or failure of coops are not indicative of the success of the ACA overall. It's a side issue. It affects about 500,000 people. So instead of 30 million people switching health plans, 30.5 million will. Big whoop. And, because of the ACA, people can shop for new plans pretty easily.

(Oh, why do so many switch health plans each year? Mostly (about 68 percent) because they changed jobs or their employer decided to change carriers.)

If you disagree, please share your national numbers which indicate the certain, imminent demise of the ACA which conservatives have been predicting since its inception.

(Oh yes, and by the way, Paul Krugman, whom conservatives tend to despise because he's an unapologetic Keynesian, predicted the demise of the coops way back in 2009: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=0)

You are debating points I have not made.
 
jack, here's a good tip for future debates. When an editorial says something in a vague or complicated way, there's a good chance its trying to convey the impression of a fact rather than a fact. I don't know what the point is about "stated deadweight loss reduction" and I bet nobody does. And maybe there is some savings from innovation but jack, those components "cover 87% of the social cost of publicly financing the benefit". In a longwinded vague way, its saying those things pay the interest on the benefit. "financing" is "borrowing money". Yea, it was an unfunded benefit but its all good because "something something" covers the interest cost of the benefit. If you have another interpretation of "social cost of publicly financing the benefit" I'd like to hear it.

again, this is good debate. Just work on the quality of the editorials and don't fall for the first one you think tells you what you want to believe.

"Here is the paper. I’m all for the view that the Bush Administration has been fiscally irresponsible, but I never thought the prescription - See more at: Sentences to ponder - Marginal REVOLUTION"

Prescription Drug Coverage and Elderly Medicare Spending

Baoping Shang, Dana P. Goldman

NBER Working Paper No. 13358
Issued in September 2007
NBER Program(s): HC AG PE
The introduction of Medicare Part D has generated interest in the cost of providing drug coverage to the elderly. Of paramount importance -- often unaccounted for in budget estimates -- are the salutary effects that increased prescription drug use might have on other Medicare spending. This paper uses longitudinal data from the Medicare Current Beneficiary Survey (MCBS) to estimate how prescription drug benefits affect Medicare spending. We compare spending and service use for Medigap enrollees with and without drug coverage. Because of concerns about selection, we use variation in supply-side regulations of the individual insurance market -- including guaranteed issue and community rating -- as instruments for prescription drug coverage. We employ a discrete factor model to control for individual-level heterogeneity that might induce bias in the effects of drug coverage. Medigap prescription drug coverage increases drug spending by $170 or 22%, and reduces Medicare Part A spending by $350 or 13% (in 2000 dollars). Medigap prescription drug coverage reduces Medicare Part B spending, but the estimates are not statistically significant. Overall, a $1 increase in prescription drug spending is associated with a $2.06 reduction in Medicare spending. Furthermore, the substitution effect decreases as income rises, and thus provides support for the low-income assistance program of Medicare Part D.[TABLE="class: bibformatsicons, width: 70%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]
(688 K)
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
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The NBER Bulletin on Aging and Health provides summaries of publications like this. You can sign up to receive the NBER Bulletin on Aging and Health by email.

Acknowledgments
Machine-readable bibliographic record - MARC, RIS, BibTeX
Document Object Identifier (DOI): 10.3386/w13358
 
just an fyi, if I post something one minute after you post something, it means I was probably typing as you posted. anyhoo, lets review what you think you've proven.



first off, you posted an editorial with no comment.

You should learn the difference between editorials and academic research.

Medicare benefits for prescription drugs
by Tyler Cowen on October 18, 2007 at 8:01 am in Medicine | Permalink
The Medicare prescription drug benefit was, from the beginning, flawed in the details of its execution. But in general terms it is turning out to be one of the best health care investments our government is making:

Rewarding inventors with inefficient monopoly power has long been regarded as the price of encouraging innovation. Public prescription drug insurance escapes that trade-off and achieves an elusive goal: lowering static deadweight loss, while simultaneously encouraging dynamic investments in innovation. As a result of this feature, the public provision of drug insurance can be welfare-improving, even for risk-neutral and purely self-interested consumers. In spite of its relatively low benefit levels, the Medicare Part D benefit generate $3.5 billion of annual static deadweight loss reduction, and at least $2.8 billion of annual value from extra innovation. These two components alone cover 87% of the social cost of publicly financing the benefit. The analysis of static and dynamic efficiency also has implications for policies complementary to a drug benefit: in the context of public monopsony power, some degree of price-negotiation by the government is always strictly welfare-improving, but this should often be coupled with extensions in patent length.

In other words, the optimal ex post incentive scheme involves some market power for drug makers. To some extent the subsidy counteracts the deadweight loss resulting from that monopoly by lowering real prices to consumers.

Here is my previous post on the topic, also indicating that the Medicare prescription drug benefit is not nearly as costly as has been charged. Of course subsidizing the pharmaceutical companies does not always sit so well with the left, so I am curious whether progressives will accept this result. And I am curious whether they envision single-payer programs as continuing this subsidy, or confiscating pharmaceutical company rents instead.

As a side remark, Martin Feldstein was the one who saw, way back when, that health care economics would become such a major field; kudos to him.

Addendum: Sorry for the omission, here is the paper itself.

- See more at: Medicare benefits for prescription drugs - Marginal REVOLUTION
 
first off buck, its good to see you're still alive. I realize that time and reality have done to your dishonest narratives what facts and logic couldn't but for you to still obediently use the word "bailout" for reinsurance only proves your dishonesty. Jack and the other cons believe the lies. I know you don't. Someday you'll have to explain why you feel the need to constantly post things even you know are not true.

Yeah, it's just too bad that congress stopped the financial assistance expected to save certain businesses from failure.

bail·out
an act of giving financial assistance to a failing business or economy to save it from collapse.
 
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