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Obamacare works - Employer based Healthcare is just about dead

274ina

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Wall Street Journal

"The average cost of employer health coverage passed $17,000 for a family plan this year, despite continued muted growth on a percentage basis, according to a major survey.

The average annual cost of an employer family plan rose 4%, to $17,545, from $16,834 last year, according to the annual poll of employers performed by the nonprofit Kaiser Family Foundation along with the Health Research & Educational Trust, a nonprofit affiliated with the American Hospital Association. "

Just dump EVERYONE! Lets get to single payer or Universal Healthcare faster! LMAO!!!!
 
Wall Street Journal

"The average cost of employer health coverage passed $17,000 for a family plan this year, despite continued muted growth on a percentage basis, according to a major survey.

The average annual cost of an employer family plan rose 4%, to $17,545, from $16,834 last year, according to the annual poll of employers performed by the nonprofit Kaiser Family Foundation along with the Health Research & Educational Trust, a nonprofit affiliated with the American Hospital Association. "

Just dump EVERYONE! Lets get to single payer or Universal Healthcare faster! LMAO!!!!

Everyone I know still have employer based healthcare... from my niece who works for a small apartment rental company, to my nephew who works as a programmer, to my other nephew who works for Catterpillar, my other nephew who works at Wawa full time, me, my sisters, everyone who's still working. Everyone I know without exception - black or white, has employer provided healthcare.

Can you cite your source and link it?
 
i got my free obamaphone though, and that's what matters.
 
Everyone I know still have employer based healthcare... from my niece who works for a small apartment rental company, to my nephew who works as a programmer, to my other nephew who works for Catterpillar, my other nephew who works at Wawa full time, me, my sisters, everyone who's still working. Everyone I know without exception - black or white, has employer provided healthcare.

Can you cite your source and link it?

Same here. Now, my PREMIUMS and co pay went up a bit....but that's all that's changed, really. Same doc. Same hospital. And I have yet to face a SINGLE death panel.
 
Same here. Now, my PREMIUMS and co pay went up a bit....but that's all that's changed, really. Same doc. Same hospital. And I have yet to face a SINGLE death panel.

How old are you?
 
Everyone I know still have employer based healthcare... from my niece who works for a small apartment rental company, to my nephew who works as a programmer, to my other nephew who works for Catterpillar, my other nephew who works at Wawa full time, me, my sisters, everyone who's still working. Everyone I know without exception - black or white, has employer provided healthcare.

Can you cite your source and link it?

Here are some sources.
Health Insurance Premiums and Premium Costs by State
Health insurance now costs $16,000 for average family - NBC News
Employer Health Coverage for Family Tops $17,000 - WSJ


Here is an article about why healthcare is more expensive in the US. In summary, we use more expensive technology, and have higher administrative costs due to our complex healthcare system.

We can either go to a managed competition system where employers band together to provide options to their employees and allow this to create more competition among employees.
Managed Competition: The Future, Not the Past | Managed Care Magazine Online

We also need more competition among hospitals:
Hospitals, Healthcare, and Competition - US News

We also need more competition among doctors by allowing the immigration of foreign doctors and paying more of the tuition of med students. This will fix the shortage of doctors we have and create a surplus which means we won't have to pay them as much as we were.

I like the basic idea of Obamacare but I would lower all the stringent requirements and regulations Obamacare has on the medical industry. I would take out all the red tape. I would also replace the medicare expansion with limited money provided by the government to pay for a minimal healthcare plan.
 
Everyone I know still have employer based healthcare... from my niece who works for a small apartment rental company, to my nephew who works as a programmer, to my other nephew who works for Catterpillar, my other nephew who works at Wawa full time, me, my sisters, everyone who's still working. Everyone I know without exception - black or white, has employer provided healthcare.

Can you cite your source and link it?

I did cite it. The Wall street journal.

The only person on that list with POSSIBLE real HC is the Caterpillar guy, because of the unions. All others have fake
insurance, that is not ACA compliant (99% chance). Either its over the ACA limit in cost, 9% of pay, or it does not meet the ACA provisions for coverage. Better tell your friends/relatives to compare their company policy with healthcare.gov.
 
Here are some sources.
Health Insurance Premiums and Premium Costs by State
Health insurance now costs $16,000 for average family - NBC News
Employer Health Coverage for Family Tops $17,000 - WSJ


Here is an article about why healthcare is more expensive in the US. In summary, we use more expensive technology, and have higher administrative costs due to our complex healthcare system.

We can either go to a managed competition system where employers band together to provide options to their employees and allow this to create more competition among employees.
Managed Competition: The Future, Not the Past | Managed Care Magazine Online

We also need more competition among hospitals:
Hospitals, Healthcare, and Competition - US News

We also need more competition among doctors by allowing the immigration of foreign doctors and paying more of the tuition of med students. This will fix the shortage of doctors we have and create a surplus which means we won't have to pay them as much as we were.

I like the basic idea of Obamacare but I would lower all the stringent requirements and regulations Obamacare has on the medical industry. I would take out all the red tape. I would also replace the medicare expansion with limited money provided by the government to pay for a minimal healthcare plan.

market reforms can never work for HC, because its infinite need, and also immediate need.

Only solution is UHC or single payer.
 
market reforms can never work for HC, because its infinite need, and also immediate need.

Only solution is UHC or single payer.

What about outlawing insurance and thus forcing medical care providers to compete based upon price? Without price competition, the free market doesn't work right, and the existence of insurance is largely what has eliminated the need for providers to compete on price.
 
market reforms can never work for HC, because its infinite need, and also immediate need.

Only solution is UHC or single payer.

Could you clarify your comments on why market reforms can't work?

Single payer systems are good but they lack competition. We can actually do better. And socialist countries have the same problem we do, just not as bad.
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What about outlawing insurance and thus forcing medical care providers to compete based upon price? Without price competition, the free market doesn't work right, and the existence of insurance is largely what has eliminated the need for providers to compete on price.

People pay premiums for health insurance and depending on your premiums your healthcare options are limited, and if you go beyond those limitations you have to pay out of pocket. So insurance does not remove competition based on price. The Obamacare exchanges are an example of competition in health insurance.
 
People pay premiums for health insurance and depending on your premiums your healthcare options are limited, and if you go beyond those limitations you have to pay out of pocket. So insurance does not remove competition based on price. The Obamacare exchanges are an example of competition in health insurance.

Competition in health insurance, but not competition between health care providers.

I think part of our issue is that we often get insurance, and health care confused. They aren't the same thing.
 
Competition in health insurance, but not competition between health care providers.

I think part of our issue is that we often get insurance, and health care confused. They aren't the same thing.

That is why I mentioned competition between hospitals and between doctors. In my opinion, we need to cut out a whole bunch of red tape from Obamacare, and stringent regulations, and make another Obamacare for hospitals and doctors.
 
That is why I mentioned competition between hospitals and between doctors. In my opinion, we need to cut out a whole bunch of red tape from Obamacare, and stringent regulations, and make another Obamacare for hospitals and doctors.

Cost-sharing like deductibles is how you get price competition between providers (at least for services priced near or below the deductible). And there's a lot of kicking and screaming against that.
 
Could you clarify your comments on why market reforms can't work?
I can't speak for him. What I can say is that medicine is not like a normal commodity.

If you get sick, it is very difficult to shop around for different doctors, different medicines, and different hospitals. Either you get the meds you need, or you suffer.

The profit motive is not a good motivator for health care. We wind up with companies spending billions to make boner pills and Botox. Pharmaceuticals put out less effective versions of medicines (often merely slight variations on something that already works well) because their patents will expire. They also charge huge sums on new medications, because they know it's only a starting point for negotiations with hospitals and insurers. Hospitals need to focus less on patient care, and more on cutting costs and fighting with insurers in order to make a profit. Doctors are not motivated to provide the services we need (such as GP) and instead focus on specialities where they can earn a better income.

Market mechanisms work very well for a variety of goods, including indispensable ones like food and shelter. It clearly doesn't work for medicine.

Nor should this be particularly shocking. There's plenty of things where the market is not the best way to handle things, ranging from education to law enforcement to emergency services. We're so accustomed to throwing huge sums of money at health care that we don't see it that way, but perhaps we should.


Single payer systems are good but they lack competition. We can actually do better. And socialist countries have the same problem we do, just not as bad.
Are you not looking at your own graph?

The US spends more than twice the OECD average on health care. Saving 60% on health care spending is huge. That's a strong argument in FAVOR of a single-payer system.

This is not a situation where competition improves efficiencies. Treating health care like a commodity distorts the incentives and sets up improper motives. Hence, we spend more than twice as much on care, without producing better results.
 
Cost-sharing like deductibles is how you get price competition between providers (at least for services priced near or below the deductible). And there's a lot of kicking and screaming against that.

Absolutely. Most people don't seem to understand that concept.
 
...What I can say is that medicine is not like a normal commodity.


Only because our insurance isn't making our purchasing decisions and paying the bill for the health care commodity. It's the existence and our dependence on low deductible health insurance that is screwing things up.

If you get sick, it is very difficult to shop around for different doctors, different medicines, and different hospitals.

You shop before you get sick, or get someone to shop for you. Anyhow, it's not really that difficult. I priced shopped for a surgery a few years ago, I just called around to different facilities and got quotes on doctors fees and the cost of the hospital facilities.

If we required that service providers posted their price lists (and they actually do have price lists), then shopping would be as easy as shopping for anything online. There are already sites that allow you to price shop for drugs, giving you the prices for your script at all the local pharmacies plus some legit online competitors. If we would require the posting of prices, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be long before there would be sites like travelocity or priceline or hotels.com for medical services, complete with reviews, star rankings, photos, the docs resume, etc.

It would be a much better system than we have now, where we let the insurance company make our decisions for us.
 
I cannot afford any more affordable care acts. My Premiums have doubled, my copay has doubled, and my deductible has increased. Then you add in the increased taxes so I can pay the government workers insurance as well as the health care for the people who refuse to work and I no longer have any money for me. If government gets any bigger I may be forced to quit my job and sign me up for the government lazy train.
 
market reforms can never work for HC, because its infinite need, and also immediate need.

Only solution is UHC or single payer.

That would destroy healthcare, ruin the economy and make us slaves to the state. No thank you. Take your UHC and shove it.
 
Here are some sources.
Health Insurance Premiums and Premium Costs by State
Health insurance now costs $16,000 for average family - NBC News
Employer Health Coverage for Family Tops $17,000 - WSJ


Here is an article about why healthcare is more expensive in the US. In summary, we use more expensive technology, and have higher administrative costs due to our complex healthcare system.

We can either go to a managed competition system where employers band together to provide options to their employees and allow this to create more competition among employees.
Managed Competition: The Future, Not the Past | Managed Care Magazine Online

We also need more competition among hospitals:
Hospitals, Healthcare, and Competition - US News

We also need more competition among doctors by allowing the immigration of foreign doctors and paying more of the tuition of med students. This will fix the shortage of doctors we have and create a surplus which means we won't have to pay them as much as we were.

I like the basic idea of Obamacare but I would lower all the stringent requirements and regulations Obamacare has on the medical industry. I would take out all the red tape. I would also replace the medicare expansion with limited money provided by the government to pay for a minimal healthcare plan.

I was hoping for some confirmation that as the title of this thread says "...employer healthcare is just about dead". I took that to mean a vast majority of people are no longer on employer healthcare.
 
I did cite it. The Wall street journal.
Of what year, of which issue. Normally a link to the actual article is required, you know - so people don't just make a claim it's the Wall Street Journal and make up stories that don't actually exist.
 
Wall Street Journal

"The average cost of employer health coverage passed $17,000 for a family plan this year, despite continued muted growth on a percentage basis, according to a major survey.

The average annual cost of an employer family plan rose 4%, to $17,545, from $16,834 last year, according to the annual poll of employers performed by the nonprofit Kaiser Family Foundation along with the Health Research & Educational Trust, a nonprofit affiliated with the American Hospital Association. "

Just dump EVERYONE! Lets get to single payer or Universal Healthcare faster! LMAO!!!!

The US also outspends most OCED countries in public K-12 education and yet is not outperforming those nations in outcome. Does that mean that US public eduaction is "just about dead"?

Just because some other nation's government has a good UHC system does not mean that the US can (or will) do so. The VA system is 100% government run medical care - does that system impress you?
 
I cannot afford any more affordable care acts. My Premiums have doubled, my copay has doubled, and my deductible has increased. Then you add in the increased taxes so I can pay the government workers insurance as well as the health care for the people who refuse to work and I no longer have any money for me. If government gets any bigger I may be forced to quit my job and sign me up for the government lazy train.

You should price shop for new insurance.

And exactly what new taxes are you paying? Unless you are a 1%er, it's highly unlikely that you are paying any more in taxes.
 
Only because our insurance isn't making our purchasing decisions and paying the bill for the health care commodity. It's the existence and our dependence on low deductible health insurance that is screwing things up.
Yeah, not so much.

Without insurance, health care would be unaffordable for the vast majority of Americans. Insurance companies distribute the risks and costs of health care across a big pool, and negotiate prices with insurers and doctors and hospitals.

Insurance doesn't make health care cheap for the people who have it. What it does is spread the costs out among the ratepayer pools. Most of these procedures would still cost whatever the insurance company gets charged for them, and that would still be well beyond the ability of most people to pay.

For the vast majority of Americans, if they weren't paying into an insurance system, it is highly unlikely they'd set that money aside for a heart attack on a rainy day. Most people would spend it, and not save up money for the all-but-inevitable heart attack or cancer.

I concur that for-profit insurers are causing lots of issues. The problem is that we cannot make health care affordable by wiping out the insurers. The service they provide -- pooling risk -- is still a critical one. Health care is expensive in the US not because we pool risk, but because the profit motive is skewing the way we handle these critical services and needs.

By the way, one of my doctors doesn't take any insurance whatsoever. She's competing against doctors who do take insurance, who charge for the copay (typically $50 these days) and maybe a little extra that insurance doesn't cover, she doesn't have the overhead of dealing with insurers. She charges $350/visit. I see no indication that cutting out that particular middle-man has reduced her costs.


You shop before you get sick, or get someone to shop for you. Anyhow, it's not really that difficult. I priced shopped for a surgery a few years ago, I just called around to different facilities and got quotes on doctors fees and the cost of the hospital facilities.
If you have a heart attack or a stroke, you don't exactly have a lot of time to shop around. Maybe you will know in advance what hospital you want to be taken to, but once you're there, your options are limited.

Or: Let's say you have a stroke. Every minute counts. Are you going to give EMTs or relatives a standing order to take you to the hospital that is a 45 minute drive from your house, because they charge 10% less than the one that is 15 minutes from your house?

If you have cancer, are you going to skip on the surgical portion because it's too expensive? Are you going to opt for a different chemo medication because it costs 5% less?

Pharmaceuticals also often have a virtual or real monopoly on drugs -- and can charge whatever they want for them. Competition is not a real factor, when there is only one drug on the market. Consider Daraprim, which has been in the news this week. It's a 60+ year old drug, and was produced at $1/pill. The rights were sold, and the new owner increased the price to $13.50 -- nothing about the drug changed, they just arbitrarily increased the price. The rights were sold again, and the new owner jacked up the price to $750 per pill. Again, nothing changed, except the owner decided to gouge everyone, and is banking on the possibility he'll profit before someone makes a generic (which may not happen at all). His claim that he was increasing the price to do research to replace the pill did not convince anyone.

Extortionate pricing for Daraprim has nothing to do with insurance companies. It's all about monopoly power, and eliminating insurers doesn't change that one bit.


There are already sites that allow you to price shop for drugs....
Great! So we could buy Daraprim at $735 a pill, instead of $750? Sweet.

The reality is that most health care cannot work that way. You can't order chemo medications or biologics online. You can't get surgery in one hospital, and recover in another one, because one charges less for Tylenol than the other. Competition doesn't affect pricing when a manufacturer abuses its monopoly power. It's not beneficial to put off surgery for 2 months because you think your surgeon will offer a Black Friday deal. Competition does not eliminate the need to pool and distribute risk.

It's quite clear that a single-payer system, while not perfect, is more efficient overall. It generates a pool significantly larger than what any insurer could do. It has far more leverage to negotiate prices. It can decide not to cover drugs or procedures that are unable to demonstrate a sufficient benefit. It has sufficient power to keep a monopoly player in check. It removes the profit motive from enough of the system to restore incentives that work for health care -- e.g. taking care of patients, rather than making money.
 
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