The Chinese threat.

bangali said:

Are you implying that the USA missile defense system can not destroy chinese nukes mid-air ? I thought that was almost impenetrable.

Click to expand...

It has been barely tested and would probably work for around 10 warheads. For 400 or so that China is believed to have it would not stop more then half

paraclete said:

I think we have to first decide is there a Chinese threat? this is like the yellow peril of the twentieth century. A fixation that we would be overrun by the hoards of Asia. Traditionally China doesn't have territorial aspirations beyond its borders but it does have clear ideas about where its ancient borders were and it wants to reestablish those. The mentality is a wall mentality, keep the enemy at a distance and a deep paranoia about being invaded. There are wounds here that have not been healed, may never be healed.

Click to expand...

What about China's war with Vietnam and the war with India in 1962 ? There was absolutely no threat from the Indian side, still they attacked with huge massive forces and penetrated deep into the Indian mountains. When the chinese forces were very near the plains, they declared ceasefire and claimed victory, which in reality was an indecisive battle. They did this because they knew from then on, India would be able to mobilize huge forces and it would be very different from fighting poorly equipped Indian forces in the mountains. The Indians(mainly the NEFA) did not even have proper winter and mountain gear and proper weapons. They tried to do that again in 1967 in the Cho La in Sikkim, but this time they were pushed back by India. They tried again in 1987 and many times afterwards. They tried unsuccessful border skirmishes with Russia. They captured Tibet and are now stirring up trouble with Japan. I am pretty sure that if Japan was not an US ally China would have definitely started a war with Japan.
These prove that the PRC is evil and expansionist and will start war or trouble if it thinks it will go in its favor. Not only that, they are stirring up trouble in africa and supporting islamic fundamentalist countries like pakistan and bangladesh, not to mention the despotic regime of North Korea. It is desperately trying to wreck the US economy. If somebody still thinks china is not a threat, I pity them.

Abbazorkzog said:

Why Britain's Military Could Beat China
This thread is what needs to get nuked.

Click to expand...

Both countries are nuclear armed... both would wipe each other out.

If we ignore nuclear capabilities and set the conflict on some far away place... say antarctica, the British have the clear advantage of continuous and recent combat history, superior training and equipment while the traditional Chinese numerical advantage does not extend to it's expeditionary forces "currently".

However move the fight to the South China Sea... effectively China's back yard, and the outcome swings dramatically in China's favor. Not even the United States Navy would last long in range of China's mainland armed forces.

bangali said:

How is the USA going to neutralize the chinese threat esp. stealth subs and satellite shooting missiles ? How will the USA react in case of a full scale nuke war with China ? Is the USA BMD capable of destroying chinese nuclear ICMB's ? Why do some people still have the Russia fixation ? If anything, Russia now is a USA ally. Please share your opinion. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Hasn't this been mutually assured destruction for decades? Nuclear war, everyone loses. There is no "neutralize", or "defeating" or "how will you react to full scale war". If it goes nuclear, even if missiles don't hit their targets, its over. Even if half are shot down, it's over. What do the Chinese people want with the U.S. in terms of conquest? We will all run out of resources eventually, eve if they take the U.S., it would just buy time. Hard to imagine a large population this day and age want to destroy another people. We share everything, movies, culture, food, families, it's absurd.

DA60 said:

For the umpteenth time...there is no Chinese threat to American sovereignty.

China has never attacked anyone outside of her historical boundaries. And America is no where near that.

Plus, the Chinese do not seem as dumb as some Ameticans as instead of running around the world dropping bombs everywhere, costing tons of money/lives, pissing people off and solving nothing; China seems to be trying to conquer the world with economics. And getting richer in the process while America grows poorer by the day.

The islands China grabbed are none of America's business. Let Japan, South Korea, et al worry about it. Failing that, take it to some international court. A couple hunks of rock halfway around the world are NOTHING for Americans to get worked up about.

This whole China vs. America nonsense is little more then neo con rambling's trying to drum up fear to justify massive military budgets.

If Americans want to defeat China? Then slash both the military and welfare budgets, end the Fed, simplify taxes/regulations and make America economically strong and competitive again. Financial prosperity is the key...not spending money she does not have.
If America does not turn her economic fortunes around, China may eventually be able to simply buy her way to world domination.

Click to expand...

Our GDP has been declining?

Well ****, I guess we still ARE in the recession and maybe now it has become a depression...

bangali said:

Are you implying that the USA missile defense system can not destroy chinese nukes mid-air ? I thought that was almost impenetrable.

Click to expand...

I think what we have here is somebody who actually believes exactly the opposite of what he posts but is trying to provoke a reaction. Sorry, but it's been done many times before - and far better.

Grand Mal said:

Oh, well done! Been here what, a week or so? and already wrote the front funner for 'Most Asinine Post of the Year'.
Gonna be hard to top, but if anyone can do it, my money's on you.

Click to expand...

cue ominous music
Could be in the running for that"special award" -
end ominous music

bangali said:

This is exactly the reason why china should be nuked and neutralized NOW, when there is an advantage, instead of waiting around and let the enemy become powerful.

Click to expand...

Take a ride on the "Wild Side"

Luftwaffe said:

Our GDP has been declining?

Well ****, I guess we still ARE in the recession and maybe now it has become a depression...

Click to expand...

It's a relative term.

There is more to measuring wealth then GDP.

America's true debt picture is closer to $65 trillion (including unfunded liabilities).

Ex-GAO head: US debt is three times more than you think | TheHill

And if the GDP is growing by about 2.5% per year on about $18.2 trillion, that works out to about $450 billion per year (in general terms - it is not exactly like that). Between the federal deficit and the non-QE QE from the Fed, the government - through money 'printing' of added debt - is adding way more then $450 billion.

Between the growing unfounded liabilities and the stimulus effect of the federal deficit/Fed QE, it could be argued that America's wealth is actually shrinking...or at least barely growing at all. Whereas China's is growing MUCH quicker.

Additionally, the American economy is basically dependent on cheap money. Record low interest rates are essential to Ametican/western growth. Look at the Fed tiny rise in rates in December...the market's fell hard.
Eventually those rates will have to go up and when they do, all this debt will look much, much worse.

No, America has far more problems with her economy then Chinese 'expansion'.

And if she wants to be able to afford to keep pace with China in a generation, she had better get her financial house in order VERY soon.

Most economic growth since the 2008 financial crash has been debt based inflation anyhow.

This goes for most western industrial economies.

China is no exception to this, however due to it's large population and potential for growth, it is inevitable that China will surpass the United States and keep growing until an equilibrium is reached. It is simple market dynamics.

BrewerBob said:

I'm not worried about China. They are a rational actor.

Click to expand...

The problem there is that myself and a great many others used to think the exact same thing.

Then you had Tiananmen Square in 1989. That made a lot of people start to rapidly change their opinion of China and what they were capable of.

China is not all that "rational". Rational nations do not try to push around their neighbors under threat of war.

lb_on_teh_cb said:

i used to think Russia was becoming an ally up until 3-4 years ago but not any more. in case you didnt notice whats going on in Ukraine, the west and U.S. are supporting new regime while Russia invades Crimea and other parts of Ukraine - doesnt sound like allies. Also, now i hear that Russia and China may be working together with other countries to move to something other than the US Dollar as the world reserve currency.

also because of industry and growing economy, eventually China will have superior military technology to U.S. - it may take 20 years but its just a matter of time.

Click to expand...

Russia may still become an ally, that all depends on who is in charge at the time. At this time, it will not happen. But they have another election in 2 more years, who can say what will happen then?

As far as "reserve currency", so what? Reserve and Exchange currencies are generally picked for reasons of stability. And most nations elect to pick many Reserve Currencies, not just one. And the amount held of a currency in International Reserve generally rises and falls, based upon it's strengths and weaknesses at the time.

At one time, many were speculating that the Euro might supplant the US$ as the Reserve Currency of choice. But the instability and economic chaos in Europe the last decade has largely placed that on the back burner for most nations. And even if the entire world turned away from the US$ and went to another currency, this would not make a major impact. No more then if one of the many nations that uses the US$ as it's official currency suddenly changing to another would make an impact. Does anybody really see the United States suddenly going into a melt-down if Panama decided to suddenly ditch the US and go to the Euro?

Nope, did not think so. However, interestingly enough, the reverse can be true. The US twice cut off the supply of US$ to Panama, and it wrecked their economy both times. However, the restoration of currency exchange also quickly restored their economy both times.

bangali said:

How is the USA going to neutralize the chinese threat esp. stealth subs and satellite shooting missiles ?

Click to expand...

What "threat?"

China is not going to invade the US. We buy too much of their crap; too much of their capital is in USD.

In fact, they have more to fear from us than vice versa. We're far more belligerent, and likely to resort to force in international affairs. China seems to mostly throw money and engineering projects, without explicit strings, at the nations it wants to influence.

How will the USA react in case of a full scale nuke war with China ? Is the USA BMD capable of destroying chinese nuclear ICMB's ?

Click to expand...

China is not going to nuke the US. If it did, the US would turn every major city in China into glowing piles of radioactive glass.

Why do some people still have the Russia fixation ? If anything, Russia now is a USA ally.

Click to expand...

Are you not reading the news? Putin is a dictator, who invades neighbors to prop up his occasionally flagging poll numbers, and uses the US as his punching bag to maintain said grip on power. Free speech and civil rights basically don't exist there; anyone who criticizes Putin in any noticeable way gets thrown in jail, or poisoned with polonium.

JANFU said:

Take a ride on the "Wild Side"

Click to expand...

I always love it when somebody makes a Dr. Strangelove reference.

jbi said:

China is no exception to this, however due to it's large population and potential for growth, it is inevitable that China will surpass the United States and keep growing until an equilibrium is reached. It is simple market dynamics.

Click to expand...

Potential actually means very little. And it must be remembered that most of the growth of China is not internal, it's external.

In other words, it is not the Chinese Goods that are actually making the demand.

First you have simple price. Because it is an internal economy, they are able to keep the prices of their export goods affordable, mostly due to low labor cost. There is nothing "superior" about the goods, they are simply cheaper. A crib or Ladder or Shirt "Made in China" is not superior to one made in Japan, USA, or anywhere else. It is only it's cost that makes it appealing to most buyers.

Then secondly you have the original product itself. When it comes to "High Tech", China is actually sadly far behind most of the rest of the world when it comes to domestic designs. Instead, they use their cost to appeal to foreign designers to have the final products built there. But they do not actually design those products, they build them on contract for others.

Simply compare a Chinese designed cell phone or tablet to that designed in the US or Europe. Sure, both may be built in the exact same factory, but it quickly becomes obvious which is superior. I actually have 2 different tablets, both designed in 2012. And they could not be further apart in quality and performance.

One is a Google-Asus Nexus 7. A bit older now, but it can still do anything I need of it. I upgrade the Android OS every couple of months, and can watch high def movies, play the latest games from the Android Store, and use it almost every day. Standard micro-USB charging means I can charge it anywhere from an industry standard cable. I can even hook it up to my TV and watch movies on it, or stream through a Chromecast or Wi-Fi network to and from another device.

The other is a Chinese made and designed ePad. It is roughly the same size, but half the screen resolution of my Nexus and 50% more weight. Wi-Fi supports data connection, but I have never been able to get it to send data to and from other devices with a level of ease that a layman could use. Forget watching movies, screen freezes because the CPU can not keep up with the bandwidth, and it looks blocky and horrible even if playing short clips. And I have never been able to update the OS, it uses a customized version of Android that is not compatible with the newer ones (I did try manual updates a few times, always had to factory reset afterwards). It also will not even access the Android Store, and have never been able to get any app not built into it to work. Finally the non-standard power charging system means I have to carry the brick everywhere I go. Needless to say, this went immediately into my "junk drawer" and I have not touched it in years.

And this is sadly typical of "Chinese High Tech". They make things for other companies, and their own designed products sit in the discount bins. How many people when they want a new cell phone consider the Xiaomi? Or the Oppo? Or the Meizu? Or even the Lenovo? To be honest, nobody tha tI know of. They want the Apple, Samsung, or the Motorola. There are still some that want the RIM, and even Nokia is making inroads once again. But the Chinese designed phones are always going to be "bargain basement" unless they can somehow figure out how to improve their designs and actually innovate, not simply copy what other companies have done years ago.

And I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that if their internal stability falters again as it did in 1989, there would be a huge exodus of companies from China, returning it to an economic backwater all over again.

Interestingly enough, the real innovator nation in that region is Taiwan. Or as I call it, "The other China". One thing that can be said for the ROC, they know how to design some quality goods.

jbi said:

Most economic growth since the 2008 financial crash has been debt based inflation anyhow.

This goes for most western industrial economies.

China is no exception to this, however due to it's large population and potential for growth, it is inevitable that China will surpass the United States and keep growing until an equilibrium is reached. It is simple market dynamics.

Click to expand...

China already passed the US in some respects. They have almost 10 times as many people to work.

Wiggen said:

I think what we have here is somebody who actually believes exactly the opposite of what he posts but is trying to provoke a reaction. Sorry, but it's been done many times before - and far better.

Click to expand...

Simply look at his posts.

For a "Progressive", he certainly holds a lot of non-progressive views.

Oozlefinch said:

The problem there is that myself and a great many others used to think the exact same thing.

Then you had Tiananmen Square in 1989. That made a lot of people start to rapidly change their opinion of China and what they were capable of.

China is not all that "rational". Rational nations do not try to push around their neighbors under threat of war.

Click to expand...

You seem to be conflating "rational" with "moral". Moral countries don't push their neighbors around under threat of war. But it may be perfectly rational if the neighbors are much weaker and have something they want. What they did at Tiananmen Square was immoral, but I don't see how it war irrational. After all, the government accomplished its goal.

Attacking the US would be irrational as the Chinese government would have much more to lose than gain from such a conflict.