Fought for Finland, the Nazis, and the US Army Special Forces - His Amazing Story

Beaudreaux said:

Who said it did? Who said that the Russians did? You took a simple statement in the article and are using it to try and derail this thread.

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No... I took a factual part of the article from a source that is know for not fact checking. It is after all the same publication that claimed that Steven Hawkins would be dead if he had grown up in the UK and been treated on the NHS...... and if you cant see the problem with that statement then I feel sorry for you.

Point is, that the statement it self is factually wrong and sticks out like sore thumb. Hence if that is factually wrong, then what else is?

That, and the Nazi SS part of the story which was short lived.

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Could be true or not.. we dont know, but we do know that the publication in question has mentioned something factually wrong.. so could this be wrong as well?

Why did you even enter this thread if you didn't intend on discussing the topic which is the man and how he fought against Communism?

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I entered this thread because I saw something factually wrong in the OP article which puts the whole story in question. If he even existed, then cool he fought Communism, but he did it by backing genocidal fascism and the US then welcomed him into their own military.. which frankly is disgusting but not surprising. The guy was in the SS... but then again because of the grossly factually wrong comment on Finland, then the whole article must be put in question..

Face it, if they did not fact check a simple historical fact... look it up on Wikipedia for **** sake, then why on earth should we believe the rest of the story?

PeteEU said:

No... I took a factual part of the article from a source that is know for not fact checking. It is after all the same publication that claimed that Steven Hawkins would be dead if he had grown up in the UK and been treated on the NHS...... and if you cant see the problem with that statement then I feel sorry for you.

Point is, that the statement it self is factually wrong and sticks out like sore thumb. Hence if that is factually wrong, then what else is?



Could be true or not.. we dont know, but we do know that the publication in question has mentioned something factually wrong.. so could this be wrong as well?



I entered this thread because I saw something factually wrong in the OP article which puts the whole story in question. If he even existed, then cool he fought Communism, but he did it by backing genocidal fascism and the US then welcomed him into their own military.. which frankly is disgusting but not surprising. The guy was in the SS... but then again because of the grossly factually wrong comment on Finland, then the whole article must be put in question..

Face it, if they did not fact check a simple historical fact... look it up on Wikipedia for **** sake, then why on earth should we believe the rest of the story?

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The topic of the OP was not changed at ALL by what you called something factually wrong. The topic was the man and his commitment to fighting Communism. You are wrong, and still derailing this thread.

Beaudreaux said:

The topic of the OP was not changed at ALL by what you called something factually wrong. The topic was the man and his commitment to fighting Communism. You are wrong, and still derailing this thread.

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Seriously? It is factually wrong.. the article says "fell to the communists in 1944".. that is factually wrong. The Soviets gave up on Finland in 1944 and negotiated a ceasefire that later on became a peace plan.. That is factual.

Now if the article can make this mistake.. or deliberate miss leading for some reason.. then what else is wrong?

Lets see..this part.

Törni enlisted at age 19 in his country's army

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No, another quick wikipedia look up would show that Finland had military service, which he entered in 1938 and that was extended when war broke out. So two problems with facts.. are there more?

But instead of surrendering, he joined up with the German SS so he could continue to fight the Soviets.

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As established the Finns never surrendered.. He was in fact demobilized. He then joined a pro Nazi finish group and went to Germany for saboteur training "in case" the Russians occupied Finland. This never happened so he joined the SS to fight the Russians and was later captured by the British. He the escaped the POW camp..was tried for treason and so on and so on. His story and allegiance to the Nazi cause is well know, and yet he was still allowed to join the US military because he was fighting the Soviets during his time as a Nazi sympathizer. And I might say he was not the only one who became friendly with the US military after the war.. lots of Nazi war criminals were gobbled up.

So again the article has another inconsistency that easily exposed by Wiki and other historical sources... Business Insider is a know right wing hack publication that loves to gloss over facts and make up ****.

Now you can admire the guys hatred of communists but that does no way excuse him and his nazi sympathies... which is what Business Insider does..

PeteEU said:

Seriously? It is factually wrong.. the article says "fell to the communists in 1944".. that is factually wrong. The Soviets gave up on Finland in 1944 and negotiated a ceasefire that later on became a peace plan.. That is factual.

Now if the article can make this mistake.. or deliberate miss leading for some reason.. then what else is wrong?

Lets see..this part.



No, another quick wikipedia look up would show that Finland had military service, which he entered in 1938 and that was extended when war broke out. So two problems with facts.. are there more?



As established the Finns never surrendered.. He was in fact demobilized. He then joined a pro Nazi finish group and went to Germany for saboteur training "in case" the Russians occupied Finland. This never happened so he joined the SS to fight the Russians and was later captured by the British. He the escaped the POW camp..was tried for treason and so on and so on. His story and allegiance to the Nazi cause is well know, and yet he was still allowed to join the US military because he was fighting the Soviets during his time as a Nazi sympathizer. And I might say he was not the only one who became friendly with the US military after the war.. lots of Nazi war criminals were gobbled up.

So again the article has another inconsistency that easily exposed by Wiki and other historical sources... Business Insider is a know right wing hack publication that loves to gloss over facts and make up ****.

Now you can admire the guys hatred of communists but that does no way excuse him and his nazi sympathies... which is what Business Insider does..

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More derailment.

PeteEU said:

I entered this thread because I saw something factually wrong in the OP article which puts the whole story in question. If he even existed, then cool he fought Communism, but he did it by backing genocidal fascism and the US then welcomed him into their own military.. which frankly is disgusting but not surprising. The guy was in the SS... but then again because of the grossly factually wrong comment on Finland, then the whole article must be put in question..

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I basically agree, but a few mistakes. He was not in the SS. He was in a foreign component of the Waffen SS. And no serious conversation can be made unless they can not be considered what they are.

The SS was primarily a Police organization. The Waffen SS was a group of soldiers who primarily qualified for SS service, and showed more dedication to the Reich then normal soldiers.

The "Volunteer" Waffen SS units were essentially foreign troops. They were organized into various units, primarily based on where they were from. The latvian Legion was formed of those from Latvia. You had other organizations that were Flemish, Hungarian, French, Ukranian, Estonian, and pretty much every other region that Germany conquered. And the main recruiting point was that they were going to carry on the fight against Communism.

One of the most well known of these units is the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French). Originally called the Légion des Volontaires Français contre le Bolchévisme (Legion of French Volunteers Against Bolshevism), they primarily recruited those who wanted to fight the Soviet Union. It has to be remembered that prior to WWII breaking out, a great many saw Communism as the largest threat, not National Socialism.

And you also really can not include what is known today with what was known at the time. The full extent of Germany's genocidal policies were not generally known until the ending days of the war in Europe. And when looking at all of the National Socialist movements worldwide, I can only really think of 1 that was genocidal - Nazi Germany.

The world then and now has a great many National Socialist governments. Italy at the time of WWII was Fascist, the originator of modern National Socialism. And even today we have Cambodia and Taiwan, both National Socialist.

However, it is hard for many to really discuss this rationally, because the Nazi Party so poisoned the phrases used that it distorts many from discussing it without emotions.

Heinrich said:

Lauri Törni strikes me as a man who, unlike most soldiers caught up in war, could not live in peace.

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Maybe, but I don't think he joined the SS to be a Nazi. I'm fairly certain this was to continue his campaign against the USSR after regions of Finland were annexed by the former, and after the latter chose not to continue their campaign against the Soviets.

Heinrich said:

Lauri Törni strikes me as a man who, unlike most soldiers caught up in war, could not live in peace.

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Maybe, but I don't think he joined the SS to be a Nazi. I'm fairly certain this was to continue his campaign against the USSR after regions of Finland were annexed by the former, and after the latter chose not to continue their campaign against the Soviets.

Abbazorkzog said:

Maybe, but I don't think he joined the SS to be a Nazi. I'm fairly certain this was to continue his campaign against the USSR after regions of Finland were annexed by the former, and after the latter chose not to continue their campaign against the Soviets.

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Most people today seem to have no knowledge of the "First Red Scare", and the wave of attacks and bombings that were going on world wide only a decade or so before WWII started. They saw things like the Spanish Civil War and even the wave of bombings across the US and Europe as a much larger threat then Fascism. After all, Fascism was a form of Socialism that was "National", which was far different then the "One State World" the Soviets and their backers wanted.

Interesting side note here. After the war was over, France allowed German POWs to join the French Foreign Legion. They already knew they were going to be fighting Communists in their Indochina and African colonies. And large numbers of German Soldiers and members of the Waffen SS Legions joined.

However, German Waffen SS members were not eligable to join the FFL. Only those who belonged to their Foreign Legions.

Well, other then the members of the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne. They were all shot for being traitors to France (even though they never fought West of Berlin).

Beaudreaux said:

More derailment.

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Just because you want to glorify this nazi war criminal doesn't mean everyone else has to, all this story shows is that many americans (including those in the military) think the USA picked the wrong side in ww2

Oozlefinch said:

I basically agree, but a few mistakes. He was not in the SS. He was in a foreign component of the Waffen SS. And no serious conversation can be made unless they can not be considered what they are.

The SS was primarily a Police organization. The Waffen SS was a group of soldiers who primarily qualified for SS service, and showed more dedication to the Reich then normal soldiers.

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No it the SS was a para military organisation with a military wing called the Waffen SS. If we have to be exact In fact to be even more exact, the SS took over from the SA, which was the Nazi Party's para military goon squad that went around beating and killing people before Hitler came to power.

The "Volunteer" Waffen SS units were essentially foreign troops. They were organized into various units, primarily based on where they were from. The latvian Legion was formed of those from Latvia. You had other organizations that were Flemish, Hungarian, French, Ukranian, Estonian, and pretty much every other region that Germany conquered. And the main recruiting point was that they were going to carry on the fight against Communism.

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Here we differ big time. The Danes had Waffen SS people and it was clear that most of their reasoning for joining the Waffen SS was because of the Nazi ideology, because there was no real threat (or ever had been) of Russia. Now I aint saying that this was for everyone, and there is no doubt that especially the eastern European ones mostly joined to fight the Russians (not communists per say btw.. but Russians), but it does not excuse them in any way for their actions that they did while fighting the Russians. The foreign SS troops were some of the "worst" perpetrators of war crimes out there and this was often done against Jews and "slavs" aka Russians.

One of the most well known of these units is the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French). Originally called the Légion des Volontaires Français contre le Bolchévisme (Legion of French Volunteers Against Bolshevism), they primarily recruited those who wanted to fight the Soviet Union. It has to be remembered that prior to WWII breaking out, a great many saw Communism as the largest threat, not National Socialism.

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Correct. They also saw National Socialism as a right wing alternative to the traditional parties on the right.. who all "feared" the new ideologies on the left including communism, because these ideologies would take away their power. That is why the right in Germany "invited" Hitler into the fray, as their power base was being eroded big time by the new social democratic and far left parties at every election. Of course Hitler paid them back by going after the left big time as soon as he took power. Most people dont know, that it was in fact social democrats, communists and labour union leadership that was the first to be thrown in the concentration camps..

And you also really can not include what is known today with what was known at the time. The full extent of Germany's genocidal policies were not generally known until the ending days of the war in Europe. And when looking at all of the National Socialist movements worldwide, I can only really think of 1 that was genocidal - Nazi Germany.

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Yes and that is why the reckoning against the Waffen SS collaborators only happened after the world found out about the camps. But most were charged with treason as they fought against the interests of their home countries.. like this dude.

Yes, it is an interesting story and life. I don't care what his motivation was, the fact that he became an SS officer, a Nazi collaborator in effect, speaks volumes to me. Everyone in Europe knew exactly what the Nazis were like, had experienced life under the Nazis (and nothing will ever convince me that the German people really didn't know what went on and what the Nazis really stood for) so there could have been no doubt in my mind that he was sympathetic to Nazism. Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia....same horse, different jockey, ultimately each as bad as the other. I cannot respect any man who became an SS officer, even if he did not personally, or his unit, commit any atrocities....it was simply wrong and dishonourable to become a part of a regime guilty of what the Nazis were guilty of.

PeteEU said:

Here we differ big time. The Danes had Waffen SS people and it was clear that most of their reasoning for joining the Waffen SS was because of the Nazi ideology

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Actually, it was an Italian ideology.

AOne of the beauties to many people of National Socialism is that it is by it's very name "Nationalist". So such a government created in Italy does not have to be the same as the same set up in Germany, or England, or China, or Belize. The forms generally remained the same, while each could enact the details of it in their own unique way.

Now do not go off thinking I am some kind of "apologist" here, what they did disgusts me. But I can also be impartial and stand back, and recognize that out of all the National Socialist governments the last century has created, only a single one went genocidal. But at the same time, I am not willing to just give it another try, to see if it can be done right the next time.

No more then I am willing to give Communism another try.

And as for the Foreign SS, Communism was indeed the targeted threat. Remember that the Nazis were masters of propaganda...









I can show you hundreds of posters exactly like that. Unlike many of the posters from Germany which often linked the Jews and their horrors with those of Communism, the posters in the other countries recruiting for the Waffen SS Legions almost exclusively mentioned Bolshevism. And most of Europe had at least one wave of "Bolshevik terror" in the previous decades.

Oozlefinch said:

Actually, it was an Italian ideology.

AOne of the beauties to many people of National Socialism is that it is by it's very name "Nationalist". So such a government created in Italy does not have to be the same as the same set up in Germany, or England, or China, or Belize. The forms generally remained the same, while each could enact the details of it in their own unique way.

Now do not go off thinking I am some kind of "apologist" here, what they did disgusts me. But I can also be impartial and stand back, and recognize that out of all the National Socialist governments the last century has created, only a single one went genocidal. But at the same time, I am not willing to just give it another try, to see if it can be done right the next time.

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I see what you mean and understand. We pretty much agree.

And as for the Foreign SS, Communism was indeed the targeted threat. Remember that the Nazis were masters of propaganda..

I can show you hundreds of posters exactly like that. Unlike many of the posters from Germany which often linked the Jews and their horrors with those of Communism, the posters in the other countries recruiting for the Waffen SS Legions almost exclusively mentioned Bolshevism. And most of Europe had at least one wave of "Bolshevik terror" in the previous decades.

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Yes they were, but you should also understand that there is a difference (well there was back then) between "Communism" and "Bolshevism". The fear was Bolshevism.. aka the throwing out of the "King/Queen" and the current political system in violent rebellion, just like what happened in Russia. The Nazis linked this with Jews (the Nazis were masters of making **** up) but it was never a fight against communism per say.. it was a fight against anything left wing (that was not Nazi friendly), which was put under the "Bolshevik" banner by the Nazis (and later even the western Allies).

Remember, Social Democrats in Germany and other countries were also called "Bolsheviks" and thrown in concentration camps.. and you cant say a Social Democrat is/was a communist..

PeteEU said:

Yes they were, but you should also understand that there is a difference (well there was back then) between "Communism" and "Bolshevism". The fear was Bolshevism.. aka the throwing out of the "King/Queen" and the current political system in violent rebellion, just like what happened in Russia. The Nazis linked this with Jews (the Nazis were masters of making **** up) but it was never a fight against communism per say.. it was a fight against anything left wing (that was not Nazi friendly), which was put under the "Bolshevik" banner by the Nazis (and later even the western Allies).

Remember, Social Democrats in Germany and other countries were also called "Bolsheviks" and thrown in concentration camps.. and you cant say a Social Democrat is/was a communist..

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Bolshevism is the term used by Nazi Germany, when talking about the Soviet Union, and any puppet states that were attracted-linked to them. To the NAZIs and their propaganda, they were one in the same.

And it had nothing to do with throwing out the monarch, the Germans themselves had done that, and the Nazi government was in no rush to bring back the Kaiser after all. And the differences were much-much deeper.

Remember, to most Communists-Bolshevicks, the center of the Communist-Socialist world was the Soviet Union. All were to pay homage to the great trinity of Marx-Lenin-Engles and bow three times as they shook metaphysical financial rosaries at all Capitolists. To the vast majority of Communists, the ideal and goal was a one world non-government that served all the workers no matter where they were at. And to achieve this, you first had to destroy whatever came beforehand.

But for National Socialism - Fascism, the old political system did not have to be abolished. The Nazi Party rose by riding with the Weimar Republic. And King Victor Emmanuel III was the one that first appointed Mussolini as Prime Minister. Communism advocated killing all monarchs and nobility and burning down the house before rebuilding, National Socialism was aimed at the individual country itself, and said they could improve the house without tearing down the house. Communism wanted to tear down the house, and the foundation, having to dig a new well, and an entirely new road.