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Beyond the Draft: Rethinking National Service

I spent 20 years in the military. I would not have wanted to serve along side people who didnt choose to be there. My guess is most professional soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines would feel the same.
 
Jerry said:
Reserve components go through a 45 day pre-mob training cycle, yes. Most reserve components don't have infantry units at all, so I'm not sure where you were going with that. Reserve components go through a 45 day pre-mob training cycle. It would work with the Air Force through the Air National Guard just fine. The navy has no presence in land-locked states beyond recruiters, who only take those looking for full-time service. Someone looking to fulfill any such mandatory 2-year term would have to go full-time Navy or pick a different branch. There already is a score system, and favoritism will exist regardless. The score system works by a designated few NCOs (typically the Reediness NCO, the Admin NCO, and the 1st Sargent) looking at everyone's jacket. Those with insubordination flags are cut right away. Then they look at the 'slots' they need to fill. If they only need a medic, and you aren't a medic, you're out. Next up are PT and shooting scores, followed by prior deployments, followed by achievements, followed. My unit handled it by assigning specific pieces of equipment to specific individuals. A lack of personnel is currently a problem, as the shortage leads to unassigned people working on the equipment of others. The reserves is composed mostly of POGs, not grunts. Everyone does the same things during drill anyway. With my unit it's PT every Sat & Sun before duty, and all the same assignments for all the same people. Your typical drill weekend, even for infantry, is inventory, preventative maintenance, and equipment layout; not actual combat training.
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You make my point by showing the scale of the reserves is small, REMF, and doing little if any realistic training.

Where will the replacement equipment come from once 1/4 of the reserve ships?

I never said no reserves, they do most the REMF work, but where will the massive numbers of grunts come from? They going to swap the M4 between them?

This isn't a few add-ons to an existing ready regular army- this is millions of civilians who can salute clogging a system that can't afford them, can't properly train them, and can't equipt them- remember the body armor/uparmor Humvee struggle?

Does the military really need a massive increase in REMF Units so a social experiment can be conducted???

Can we afford the massive increase in payroll???

I think not... :peace
 
Dittohead not! said:
A term of public service should be required in order to qualify for government handouts.
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Don't stop there- a gubmint job at any level from trash collection to DA. No politician should be eligible without public service. No Gubmint contracts, lower priority for gubmint services of any sort....

Citizenship has responsibilities!!!!!

Course what would you do with those who can't perform 'public service'??? Make a special category where they just sit around in a room???
 
BrewerBob said:
I spent 20 years in the military. I would not have wanted to serve along side people who didnt choose to be there. My guess is most professional soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines would feel the same.
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Anyone who doesn't want to be there can get the **** out of the country.
 
notquiteright said:
Terrible idea once we left cannon fodder tactics behind for the high tech battlefield. Grunts will always be needed, but a conscript infantry would be strained to use the sort of complex weapon systems we use and have cries of the poor die while the rich sit in command centers. I love how some righties claim the military isn't a social experimental lab- yet many righties see it as just that when it suits them... :confused:
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What?

No you can't exempt women... this isn't 1861.
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Yes, you can. That you let women do your fighting for you is immaterial, it is something that could be done.
 
notquiteright said:
Don't stop there- a gubmint job at any level from trash collection to DA. No politician should be eligible without public service. No Gubmint contracts, lower priority for gubmint services of any sort....

Citizenship has responsibilities!!!!!

Course what would you do with those who can't perform 'public service'??? Make a special category where they just sit around in a room???
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If they're not capable of performing a public service, then they're not capable of doing a government job. They're probably not capable of a private sector job either.

No, a provision would have to be made for the autistic, the mentally handicapped, maybe a few more things.
 
notquiteright said:
Where will the replacement equipment come from once 1/4 of the reserve ships?
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What replacement equipment? An individual soldier is issued standard gear. When you deploy, you take it with you. When you come back, you bring it back. If you loose it, you pay for it.

notquiteright said:
I never said no reserves, they do most the REMF work, but where will the massive numbers of grunts come from?
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We're talking about a draft of the general population, so "the massive numbers of grunts" would come from where babies come from, if there's even a "massive number of grunts" at all. More likely there would be a 'massive number' of POGs who would finish the mandatory term while attending collage.

notquiteright said:
They going to swap the M4 between them?
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For drill, probably. The machine gun I deployed with has been deployed twice since I've come back, with other units. The firearms are State property and the State can move them around as the State sees fin. It's not like all of the reserves deploy all at the same time. There is a rotation within the battalion and yes, sometimes you are given a weapon that someone else, in another reserve unit within the battalion, had just deployed with.

notquiteright said:
This isn't a few add-ons to an existing ready regular army- this is millions of civilians who can salute clogging a system that can't afford them, can't properly train them, and can't equipt them- remember the body armor/uparmor Humvee struggle?
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It's always a struggle. We struggled for things in 2011, the media just didn't report on it.

notquiteright said:
Does the military really need a massive increase in REMF Units so a social experiment can be conducted???
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Evidently not since those social experiments are being carried out regardless.

notquiteright said:
Can we afford the massive increase in payroll???
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Think about what you just said.

The government taxes the everyone to pay for reservists. The government then taxes the reservist's pay as income. The government then taxes everything the reservist buys as sales tax. The government then taxes the reservist's investments as gains. The government then taxes the reservist's estate when they pass it on as inheritance tax.

The government can't afford NOT drafting everyone.
 
Simpleχity;1065304730 said:
Beyond the Draft: Rethinking National Service
By retired four-star general Stanley McChrystal (JSOC/ISAF)

Four reasons the defense community ought to support universal access to national service...



Thoughts on a mandatory term of national service?
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First of all, I think it's important to point out that Gen. McChrystal isn't proposing mandatory national service.

I have been committed to the mission of making a year of national service a shared experience for all young Americans. We are working to create a system of universal national service that incentivizes and encourages national service, but does not mandate it.
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However, regarding mandatory service, I am opposed to the notion. I suppose I'm a product of the draft era...even though I was never drafted...and I'd rather keep such things voluntary.
 
Mycroft said:
First of all, I think it's important to point out that Gen. McChrystal isn't proposing mandatory national service.



However, regarding mandatory service, I am opposed to the notion. I suppose I'm a product of the draft era...even though I was never drafted...and I'd rather keep such things voluntary.
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If we keep it volintary then we need to tie voting rights to it. No service = no vote.
 
Jerry said:
If we keep it volintary then we need to tie voting rights to it. No service = no vote.
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I don't agree.

Voting is a right of citizenship. There should be no such restrictions.

The General mentioned incentives...I'd be interested in hearing what he has in mind.
 
jimbo said:
I don't think the government needs to get into the slave business.
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So you think we should privatize it. LOL, just kidding. :lol:
 
Mycroft said:
I don't agree.

Voting is a right of citizenship. There should be no such restrictions.

The General mentioned incentives...I'd be interested in hearing what he has in mind.
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As long as you have an ID, and I mean it!
 
Sherman123 said:
I oppose conscription save in times of emergencies.
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The situation being deemed an emergency wouldn't change anything about the reality of the act.
 
We should also not encourage national service in any capacity. There is no personal benefit that comes to someone from serving in the military and it is frankly illogical and stupid to decide to die for something only interested in itself.
 
notquiteright said:
Don't stop there- a gubmint job at any level from trash collection to DA. No politician should be eligible without public service. No Gubmint contracts, lower priority for gubmint services of any sort....

Citizenship has responsibilities!!!!!

Course what would you do with those who can't perform 'public service'??? Make a special category where they just sit around in a room???
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which would differ how, from what so many do now?
 
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Henrin said:
We should also not encourage national service in any capacity. There is no personal benefit that comes to someone from serving in the military and it is frankly illogical and stupid to decide to die for something only interested in itself.
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yes, there are some benefits, been there, doing that....I am a retired veteran, with disability payments as well, Parkinson's Disease as a result of exposure to agent orange.

BUT, how fair is it that non-combatants get the exact same benefits as those who come back maimed, crippled, disfigured....or in a box?
Those who bear the larger burden should receive the greater benefit.
 
I am 100% against compulsory military service.

What possible incentives are there in a capatalist society besides money?



I got nothing.

$8,000 sign up bonus isn't going to sit well with those that are already serving. Knowwhatimean?

McChrystal is a bone-a-fide idiot. Retired? More like fired.
 
Henrin said:
The situation being deemed an emergency wouldn't change anything about the reality of the act.
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It would play into the utilitarian calculation. Only in an emergency would I be willing to give the state to impress your body into service for the greater good.
 
Sherman123 said:
It would play into the utilitarian calculation. Only in an emergency would I be willing to give the state to impress your body into service for the greater good.
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Well, the state wouldn't have my service regardless, so that's a moot point. Anyway, I don't believe in the concept of of the 'greater good' as it is nothing more than a way for the collective to impose its interests on those that disagree.
 
d0gbreath said:
I am 100% against compulsory military service.

What possible incentives are there in a capatalist society besides money?


I got nothing.

$8,000 sign up bonus isn't going to sit well with those that are already serving. Knowwhatimean?

McChrystal is a bone-a-fide idiot. Retired? More like fired.
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The government incentives people to join the military in many ways already by providing all sorts of benefits and services to people that serve. To the most part these incentives involve money either on the front end or the back end of the service or benefit. Of course, I have no idea how you look at the loss of privacy, possible death and other bodily and mental harms, general loss of freedom, and go, hell yeah, lets go that route when something like college comes into the equation, but whatever.
 
Paleocon said:
What? Yes, you can. That you let women do your fighting for you is immaterial, it is something that could be done.
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When there is talk of allowing women to serve in combat units, or gays in subs, some on the right go nuts, well nuttier, and declare our national defense is no place for social experiments... yet here we are discussing a major social experiment- broad drafts to learn them young folks something. The term of service will be short, the level of training low and the value vs the time and money spent as far as the defense of our nation is concerned very poor return on investment. And absolutely no guarantee the conscript will come out with a love of country the Conservatives think will be a byproduct...

That you use snide attacks is immaterial. This is the age of equality, women have the right to vote and for now the right to choose when to have a baby.

No woman 'did my fighting'- I have the scars and disability check to prove it. But I did note there were precious few of my fellow males eager to help me fight. So if a female wants to fight I'd say let her...FYI conscription isn't an automatic sentence to the Infantry, women can be conscripted and serve in a wide range of REMF duty slots- just like 90% of the males who now serve... :peace
 
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