Your Experience with Females in the Military

betuadollar said:

Even so, even in an all male company, over thirty percent were culled for various reasons before we graduated. And at least another five percent were "recycled" as physically unfit yet willing to continue. Also, since I chose a technical MOS, whereas most women seemed to favor a more administrative role, I didn't actually encounter any females until I got to my first duty station.

Click to expand...

This is frankly another issue. From everything I've heard, modern Basic Training isn't anywhere near as hard as it used to be anyway. They had to mellow the entire experience out just so that female privates could actually conceivably pass.

I think we only lost like two or three males in my platoon, and most of them never should have been there to begin with. One was a fat middle aged guy who might've very well had a heart attack the very first day, and the others were all obvious psych cases.

Fort Benning and Fort Sill were supposedly a lot harder, simply because they were all male, which made the Drill Sergeants a lot more bold in what they could do. However, even they are gender integrated now.

Gathomas88 said:

This is frankly another issue. From everything I've heard, modern Basic Training isn't anywhere near as hard as it used to be anyway. They had to mellow the entire experience out just so that female privates could actually conceivably pass.

I think we only lost like two or three males in my platoon, and most of them never should have been there to begin with. One was a fat middle aged guy who might've very well had a heart attack the very first day, and the others were all obvious psych cases.

Fort Benning and Fort Sill were supposedly a lot harder, simply because they were all male, which made the Drill Sergeants a lot more bold in what they could do. However, even they are gender integrated now.

Click to expand...

I can't imagine; I honestly can't imagine a female drill instructor. Our drills were tough. I actually saw one carry a 205 lb black dude on his back for over twenty miles in the desert. And it was over 110 degrees. We had one company commander who decided he'd mess with us and take us out for a run in the desert. But we'd had a heat wave and it was over 130 degrees. Being Hispanic, and accustomed to the heat, he thought he could deal with it. After a mile he called half-step, but being so pissed off, no one stopped. We ran that bas**d into the ground. We did another six miles before we called half-step. And that commander walked the whole way back with his tail between his legs. He had violated regulations which then limited runs to 95 degrees; even the drills were pissed. I'm not at all exaggerating when I say they threw out over 30%. Not that we were tough, anyone can do it, but you have to be young and healthy. We weren't elitists either; this was just the average run of the mill in the Army at the time. But they'd take us out to White Sands because they knew beyond the watchful eye, they could violate rules at will.

Gathomas88 said:

This is frankly another issue. From everything I've heard, modern Basic Training isn't anywhere near as hard as it used to be anyway. They had to mellow the entire experience out just so that female privates could actually conceivably pass.

I think we only lost like two or three males in my platoon, and most of them never should have been there to begin with. One was a fat middle aged guy who might've very well had a heart attack the very first day, and the others were all obvious psych cases.

Fort Benning and Fort Sill were supposedly a lot harder, simply because they were all male, which made the Drill Sergeants a lot more bold in what they could do. However, even they are gender integrated now.

Click to expand...

I don't know how much of that had to do specifically with females. After I finished up both Active and Reserve commitments in 1993 I got called back for a weekend "readiness" exercise. All we had to do was show up but some colonel gave us a briefing on "Total Quality Management" and a "paradigm shift" in how the military would run. It was pretty much vomit inducing. The upshot was that the military was going to be a "kinder, gentler" force. Imagine that, a kinder, gentler killing machine....what a ****ed up concept.

Lutherf said:

I don't know how much of that had to do specifically with females. After I finished up both Active and Reserve commitments in 1993 I got called back for a weekend "readiness" exercise. All we had to do was show up but some colonel gave us a briefing on "Total Quality Management" and a "paradigm shift" in how the military would run. It was pretty much vomit inducing. The upshot was that the military was going to be a "kinder, gentler" force. Imagine that, a kinder, gentler killing machine....what a ****ed up concept.

Click to expand...

Don't know if this counts but I had an affair with Air Force nurse who was six years older than me when I as 16.

It was OK, could have been better, but it was in Dayton, Ohio.

I boinked a couple, if that counts.

My hitch consisted of Infantry OSUT and then four years in an Infantry line company, so I had no real "professional" experience with them.

From what I observed they're no more or less useful than your average male POG/REMF/FOBIT/etc...

Fearandloathing said:

Don't know if this counts but I had an affair with Air Force nurse who was six years older than me when I as 16.

It was OK, could have been better, but it was in Dayton, Ohio.

Click to expand...

You really need the ones from intel jobs. I don't know if it was the radiation from the equipment or being locked in a dark room all day that did it but DAMN the crazy (in a good way) manifested itself. Come to think of it, the ones in weather were kind of like that too but they always had a thing for pilots.

So I'm in boot camp, and a Sr. Chief takes me from my company and he walks me to some office for some reason, right, and I'm like "Oh ****, what's this Sr. Chief want with me?" Right? So we're walking and I'm trying my best not to sound like an idiot to the Sr. Chief as he's making small talk and we walk past this lady...

I'm thinking "What's this Chief want with me, what's this Chief want with me?" and while I'm thinking about this I'm not paying attention to the Sr. Chief saluting this woman. I finally for a brief moment snap out of it, and I see from the corner of my eye this woman slowing down and giving me the stink eye.

I snap a salute up at the last second and she says "You better be a bit quicker with that next time 'Cruit!" To which I reply "Yes ma'am, Sorry ma'am!"

The Sr. Chief looks back at me and chuckles.

It was the XO of RTC. :roll:

So we enter the building we were going to and when I see bling, I'm saluting every friggin thing under the sun...

Which only got the Sr. Chief laughing his ass off all the more...

Lutherf said:

You really need the ones from intel jobs. I don't know if it was the radiation from the equipment or being locked in a dark room all day that did it but DAMN the crazy (in a good way) manifested itself. Come to think of it, the ones in weather were kind of like that too but they always had a thing for pilots.

Click to expand...

Nurses have the best drugs

Served in several billets where there were both male and female Marines. Some of my best junior NCO's were female Marines and I fought hard to get them promotions and awards. They do present a problem though, and not all of the issues are their fault. Yes, on long forced marches they tend to "break down" at a higher percentage, during unit PT females usually cannot complete the entire run with the unit.

Unfortunately they can have a negative effect on even senior SNCO's. I was assigned to a training unit where the divorce rate was crazy because the older Marines who were assigned as instructors got involved with their "students". Not blaming the females (although one of the instructors was a female and she got involved with a male student) as a whole, just pointing out that they can present a problem.

2nd MTBn had a crazy rate of pregnancies after Desert Storm and most of those females were not married and requested separation from the Marine Corps due to pregnancy. Yes, they could "get out" for being pregnant. Some of the married female Marines that returned pregnant had some 'splainin to do to some hubbies that were no where near them for longer than 6 months.

Just like my experience with the men in the military. Mixed.

The women tended to be more professional and focused though they did lag behind in tasks that required some physical strength. Yeah, in gender integrated units there was more drama but it was mostly the younger men and women getting into that. The more senior folks were squared away. The best First Sergeant I ever had was an African-American female.

Once I was an officer in more of a leadership position I would say the percentage of females who gave me trouble was about the same as males. Like the males, some are outstanding, some have no place in the military, and most are adequate.

I was admin and then intel. No SF or Ranger or anything like that.

X Factor said:

What I'm trying to figure out is why it's entirely the females fault or doing for getting pregnant or "fraternizing" with the male servicemen?

Click to expand...

It's not - both should be punished for misbehavior.

However, the fraternizing problem comes with introducing females into an all-male unit. It's not uniquely their fault, but it is a problem that they bring. It's not a flu victim's fault he or she got sick either, which doesn't mean they shouldn't stay home rather than infect the entire office.

Pregnancy is a different ticket - while both actors are "responsible", so long as it isn't done inside of fraternization or adultery, no one is at fault. But what it does mean is that the female is incapable of performing combat duties or deploying for a little shy of two years. So, my shop was about 20 people, and 2 of our females got pregnant right before deployment. That means they effectively took 10% casualties before they even deployed, and they had to deploy undermanned.

10% isn't that atypical, either. It's a real readiness issue that we often deliberately try to ignore because of the implications.

cpwill said:

It's not - both should be punished for misbehavior.

However, the fraternizing problem comes with introducing females into an all-male unit. It's not uniquely their fault, but it is a problem that they bring. It's not a flu victim's fault he or she got sick either, which doesn't mean they shouldn't stay home rather than infect the entire office.

Pregnancy is a different ticket - while both actors are "responsible", so long as it isn't done inside of fraternization or adultery, no one is at fault. But what it does mean is that the female is incapable of performing combat duties or deploying for a little shy of two years. So, my shop was about 20 people, and 2 of our females got pregnant right before deployment. That means they effectively took 10% casualties before they even deployed, and they had to deploy undermanned.

10% isn't that atypical, either. It's a real readiness issue that we often deliberately try to ignore because of the implications.

Click to expand...

So in your analogy, you're saying being a woman is like being a flu victim and your military should not be "infected" with them?

X Factor said:

So in your analogy, you're saying being a woman is like being a flu victim and your military should not be "infected" with them?

Click to expand...

No, I am saying that women in the infantry will cause problems, and that that condition is not the fault of women, but that it is reality that they bring those problems with them. In politics you can ignore reality in favor of the narrative. In combat, reality imposes itself immediately and harshly.

I'm in favor of women in the military. If you'd read my post, you would know that. I just also think that putting them in the combat arms is an extremely bad idea, pursued for political interest group reasons, which will result in us taking more casualties.

X Factor said:

So in your analogy, you're saying being a woman is like being a flu victim and your military should not be "infected" with them?

Click to expand...

Way to avoid the entire point of his post and instead try and play games. Says a lot about the strength of your argument.

I can not speak for anyone other than myself. As a company commander at one location 25 years ago, the morale and discipline suffered. Female soldiers actually used their sex to gain sway over male soldiers to disrupt the command structure and work environment. I do not know if this ever proves the case now. I do believe females have a place in the military. My experience with them did not prove in many cases to be the best. The question was asked, and I answered.

Gathomas88 said:

I have heard some outright horror stories about the "frat boy" bull**** that tends to go on in all male combat arms units (hazing, rampant homoeroticism, and etca). Frankly, I'm kind of glad that I never had to deal with it. lol.

Click to expand...

REMF apologism. A myth to make them feel better.

Never had a problem with any female in the military, though I was in an all-male unit so the encounters were few. If a woman can pass the male physical standards, I see no problem with them serving even where some men will not or cannot.

ecofarm said:

REMF apologism. A myth to make them feel better.

Never had a problem with any female in the military, though I was in an all-male unit so the encounters were few. If a woman can pass the male physical standards, I see no problem with them serving even where some men will not or cannot.

Click to expand...

Though I have never had a MOS that allowed women we do have them in support positions above BN level. My honest opinion on them has been mixed just like most of our support folks. I will say that for the most part it seems like there is a higher percentage of out of shape females vs males but as to knowing their job I think they are fairly close to equal.
That said I have seen first hands the problems that arise when you are deployed and have mixed men and women. The last SOTF I was at was SEAL run and they were having all kinds of problems with folks hooking up and several females getting pregnant. As I mentioned in a different thread there was also a SEAL PL that was sent home over that type of foolishness. I have also seen the issues that come up when we had CST out at my VSO site. It just is not good for unit cohesion and overall we were all glad when we sent them back to the SOTF.
To me it just comes down to the fact that a female does not create any pluses over an equally qualified male and they bring a decent number of downsides. Now maybe if we were having a hard time getting enough qualified males than maybe it would be worth it but as that is not a problem and doesn't seem like it's going to be with the drawdown I don't see bringing in all the negatives for no positives is a smart move. The military is about accomplishing its mission not fairness. If tomorrow they found out that females make better pilots then men I would want males to be banned from that job. When it comes to the military I really don't care about individuals wants or fairness at all.

braindrain said:

To me it just comes down to the fact that a female does not create any pluses over an equally qualified male and they bring a decent number of downsides. Now maybe if we were having a hard time getting enough qualified males than maybe it would be worth it but as that is not a problem and doesn't seem like it's going to be with the drawdown I don't see bringing in all the negatives for no positives is a smart move. The military is about accomplishing its mission not fairness. If tomorrow they found out that females make better pilots then men I would want males to be banned from that job. When it comes to the military I really don't care about individuals wants or fairness at all.

Click to expand...

Very few women would pass the men's physical requirements (a fair expectation for combat arms). Having one woman in an infantry battalion would not adversely affect anything.

As far as positives, there's no need to prove a need in defense of a right and I believe we all have a right to serve our country according to our abilities and willingness to take risk.

There are many female's fighting in Ukraine.

[video=youtube;mQoOCifShwQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?mQoOCifShwQ[/video]

Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine
(Translation of remarks by Ukrainian soldier "Masha" to reporter questions)

Masha: So, reveal my face?
Reporters: Gosh, you're so young!
Masha: Yeah.
Reporters: And so beautiful.
Masha: I'm together with the soldiers, we share everything.
Reporters: How long have you been here?
Masha: Right here?
Reporters: All in all, in the battalion?
Masha: 2 months.
Reporters: How do you feel right now? Is this your place?
Masha: Yes, yes.

Gathomas88 said:

A question for all the vets out there. What has your experience been with females in the uniformed services? Personally, my own has been mixed...

Click to expand...

Sorry Gat ... had to chop off your post ... too long per the website computer editor.

My own personal experience with females in the military was two fold -- the female officers and the female enlisteds.

The female officers hang around the O-clubs either solo or in groups. The solo's are looking for a date or a soul mate.

The groupies sip drinks and chit chat about what can a male soldier do that a female cannot?

The logical answer is stand up while peeing.

The enlisted are similar but they hang around the NCO clubs and EM clubs.

Sometimes the enlisted females are turning tricks for money on the side, whereas the female officers are paid well enough that they don't need the extra money.

I have found that in the communications battalions, the females are actually superior RTO operators, and their voices are so beautiful that it even beats Tokyo Rose (if anybody remember her -- my WW2 uncle told me about that).

The females are also superior office workers and office admins. Your paperwork is more likely to be done correctly by a female than a male.

As far as serving in combat support roles (carrying guns and all) I see no problem with females doing those jobs.

As far as serving as Infantry soldiers, I think the female units would need to be segregated up to the battalion level to be effective -- just a hypothesis but a very safe bet I believe.

/s/ Lieutenant Riveroaks USMCR / honorably discharged

Simpleχity;1065115659 said:

There are many female's fighting in Ukraine.

[video=youtube;mQoOCifShwQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?mQoOCifShwQ[/video]

Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine
(Translation of remarks by Ukrainian soldier "Masha" to reporter questions)

Masha: So, reveal my face?
Reporters: Gosh, you're so young!
Masha: Yeah.
Reporters: And so beautiful.
Masha: I'm together with the soldiers, we share everything.
Reporters: How long have you been here?
Masha: Right here?
Reporters: All in all, in the battalion?
Masha: 2 months.
Reporters: How do you feel right now? Is this your place?
Masha: Yes, yes.

Click to expand...

I love Russian women. They are truly modern Amazons.

ecofarm said:

Very few women would pass the men's physical requirements (a fair expectation for combat arms). Having one woman in an infantry battalion would not adversely affect anything.

As far as positives, there's no need to prove a need in defense of a right and I believe we all have a right to serve our country according to our abilities and willingness to take risk.

Click to expand...

Precisely why the female infantry units would need to be segregated.

ecofarm said:

Very few women would pass the men's physical requirements (a fair expectation for combat arms). Having one woman in an infantry battalion would not adversely affect anything.

As far as positives, there's no need to prove a need in defense of a right and I believe we all have a right to serve our country according to our abilities and willingness to take risk.

Click to expand...

You are right that one per BN probably wouldn't effect the entire BN. But she will have a negative effect on the squad she is in and probably the platoon. Put her platoon alone out on a COP in Afghanistan for months on end and there will be issues. We had two CSTs at my VSO site with just my ODA and one infantry squad and after s few months they were sent away due to those very same problems. An infantry platoon most likely won't have that option.

Sorry but individual rights take a back seat to military needs all the time. Exactly as they should.

ecofarm said:

Very few women would pass the men's physical requirements (a fair expectation for combat arms). Having one woman in an infantry battalion would not adversely affect anything.

As far as positives, there's no need to prove a need in defense of a right and I believe we all have a right to serve our country according to our abilities and willingness to take risk.

Click to expand...

You are right that one per BN probably wouldn't effect the entire BN. But she will have a negative effect on the squad she is in and probably the platoon. Put her platoon alone out on a COP in Afghanistan for months on end and there will be issues. We had two CSTs at my VSO site with just my ODA and one infantry squad and after a few months they were sent away due to those very same problems. An infantry platoon most likely won't have that option.

Sorry but individual rights take a back seat to military needs all the time. Exactly as they should.

Riveroaks said:

Precisely why the female infantry units would need to be segregated.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. 1 woman (passing men physical standards) in a company of 100 makes no difference in any way.