Military is OK with Confederate flag — for now (1 Viewer)

Gimmesometruth said:

You are getting a bit pedantic about the origin and are avoiding the point. As a matter of fact one of the main reasons it was adopted was because at distance the Confederate flag was nearly indistinguishable from the flag of the Union, not a good thing with lots of powder smoke causing a fog of war . Regardless, the point remains that the CB flag came to represent those armies defending the Confederacy, and the Confederacy was at base a slave system, whereas the US purged this from itself, redeeming itself to some degree.

Personally, I really getting more and more disappointed with the direction your posts have taken on this matter. You used to be fairly accurate and to the (correct) point....but not as much lately.

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The Union only "purged" itself of slavery in that it didn't want it to spread and was more than willing to allow it to die out on its own. Only after some of the Southern states threw their tantrum and declared themselves separate from the US, did the Union later decide that setting the slaves free would be to their advantage. Had those Southern states not seceded, slavery would have been legal in the US for at least another decade or so, likely longer as it slowly waited to die out.

Despite its horrible nature and causes (I'm not even for the whole states' rights thing), overall the Civil War itself turned out to likely have been better than simply having the tension build up even more.

It is wrong to assume that a single object represented the same thing to all people. That flag represented many different things to many different people throughout the Civil War, and up to this day.

roguenuke said:

The problem with that is the exact same one that we see with the issue of the "rebel flag", it represents only one perspective, a perspective that is attempting to speak for all people, for all those who were seceding. It doesn't recognize that not everyone felt that way.

It is just like when people say the goal of Christianity is to spread the word to absolutely everyone or that the goal of Islam is to convert all nonbelievers. Not everyone feels this way, even those within the religion.

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It doesn't represent only one perspective. It represents the main perspective of that group at the time. I understand that now, most people flying the confederate flag don't think it represents racism and probably aren't racist. But the argument that it's early origins can't be directly traced back to the idea that blacks are inferior is a lie. The by in large main goal of the confederacy is to ensure that they get to keep slaves and that black people continue to know their place so to speak. And to wave a flag that represents a movement that's main goal was that is silly. It's like waving around a nazi flag and saying "im not waving it cause I hate Jews, it's just that I'm German and proud of my heritage, and lots of brave men fought and died etc."

This idea that the confederate flag means "heritage" is a very new concept. Where I'm from, a generation ago, the confederate flag still stood for "the confederacy was right, we abhor the civil rights movement, we abhor desegregation, blacks are inferior by nature" etc.

roguenuke said:

The Union only "purged" itself of slavery in that it didn't want it to spread and was more than willing to allow it to die out on its own.

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Bullchit, the abolitionist movement continued to gain momentum from the beginning of the Union to 1861.

Only after some of the Southern states threw their tantrum and declared themselves separate from the US, did the Union later decide that setting the slaves free would be to their advantage. Had those Southern states not seceded, slavery would have been legal in the US for at least another decade or so, likely longer as it slowly waited to die out.

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It probably would have taken longer than that, but this is all noise, still avoiding the point that rough was making, what the CFB represents. Even by this last bit, the Union, the citizens of the Union, were well on the way to abolishing slavery....it was not the cornerstone for the Union as it was most definitely so for the Confederacy

Despite its horrible nature and causes (I'm not even for the whole states' rights thing), overall the Civil War itself turned out to likely have been better than simply having the tension build up even more.

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Really? You think there would have been a greater toll than 1.1Million casualties and 620K lives if this had been ended through legislative process?

It is wrong to assume that a single object represented the same thing to all people. That flag represented many different things to many different people throughout the Civil War, and up to this day.

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No doubt, especially when they choose to ignore the brutality of the Confederate system, the cost of the war, the inherent racism, the belief structure that Blacks are inferior....you know, those things to be proud of.

roughdraft274 said:

It doesn't represent only one perspective. It represents the main perspective of that group at the time. I understand that now, most people flying the confederate flag don't think it represents racism and probably aren't racist. But the argument that it's early origins can't be directly traced back to the idea that blacks are inferior is a lie. The by in large main goal of the confederacy is to ensure that they get to keep slaves and that black people continue to know their place so to speak. And to wave a flag that represents a movement that's main goal was that is silly. It's like waving around a nazi flag and saying "im not waving it cause I hate Jews, it's just that I'm German and proud of my heritage, and lots of brave men fought and died etc."

This idea that the confederate flag means "heritage" is a very new concept. Where I'm from, a generation ago, the confederate flag still stood for "the confederacy was right, we abhor the civil rights movement, we abhor desegregation, blacks are inferior by nature" etc.

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Its earliest origins was just to represent a single Army that joined the Confederacy, not because of slavery, but because of the specific issue of conscription. The majority of Virginia was content with waiting out the war, despite being a slave state. The rest of the confederates decided to claim the flag to represent them on the battle field because they needed something to represent them. It didn't represent "slavery", but rather their secession. Slavery was the main reason for secession for many states, but not necessarily for many people, soldiers from those states. Slavery didn't have a flag to represent it.

Gimmesometruth said:

Regardless, the point remains that the CB flag came to represent those armies defending the Confederacy, and the Confederacy was at base a slave system, whereas the US purged this from itself, redeeming itself to some degree.

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False. Utterly and completely wrong.

The "United States" did not "purge" slavery until December 1864, when the war was almost over. During almost all of the war, slavery was still legal in the United States of America.

Wow,can a person fail any worse then that?

Oozlefinch said:

False. Utterly and completely wrong.

The "United States" did not "purge" slavery until December 1864,

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Where did I say otherwise? Did I say some date prior....did I say any date at all? Did the Confederacy ever reject slavery? Have you ever posted anything accurate?

roguenuke said:

The majority of Virginia was content with waiting out the war, despite being a slave state.

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The decision came from what seemed to many white Virginians the unavoidable logic of the situation: Virginia was a slave state; the Republicans had announced their intention of limiting slavery; slavery was protected by the sovereignty of the state; an attack on that sovereignty by military force was an assault on the freedom of property and political representation that sovereignty embodied. When the federal government protected the freedom and future of slavery by recognizing the sovereignty of the states, Virginia's Unionists could tolerate the insult the Republicans represented; when the federal government rejected that sovereignty, the threat could no longer be denied even by those who loved the Union.


Virginia's ordinance of secession was ratified in a referendum held on May 23, 1861, by a vote of 132,201 to 37,451.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_in_the_American_Civil_War#Secession_2

Gimmesometruth said:

Where did I say otherwise? Did I say some date prior....did I say any date at all? Did the Confederacy ever reject slavery? Have you ever posted anything accurate?

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No need to reject anything, when they lost the war and had emancipation shoved down their throat, if they like it or not.

That is like having a fight with your wife, and you beat her up because she does not agree with you. And now you are demanding that she actually agree with you as being right even as she is on the floor bleeding? Look bro, you beat her up, she is gonna do whatever you say... don't expect her to then agree with you and say you were right all along.

Oozlefinch said:

No need to reject anything, when they lost the war and had emancipation shoved down their throat, if they like it or not.

That is like having a fight with your wife, and you beat her up because she does not agree with you. And now you are demanding that she actually agree with you as being right even as she is on the floor bleeding? Look bro, you beat her up, she is gonna do whatever you say... don't expect her to then agree with you and say you were right all along.

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As I said, it is impossible for you to be accurate, your analogy is inaccurate, you can't admit to your errors about what I say and you are just trolling. It is pointless to respond to you.

Gimmesometruth said:

As I said, it is impossible for you to be accurate, your analogy is inaccurate, you can't admit to your errors about what I say and you are just trolling. It is pointless to respond to you.

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Actually, I am not trolling at all. I do not troll, you keep trying to make claims and statements that simply make no sense.

The South lost the war! They did not have to make any kind of rejection at all, that is where you failed. Until the 13th Ammendment slavery was still legal in the United States.

Ironically, it was legal for longer in the US then it was in most of the South. That is a fact, and knowing something about history would help you in understanding that.

To be honest, this entire thread should have long ago been flushed out of military, because it is not a military topic. It is a political one, as is seen by the huge number of politically minded lemmings who have been posting in here. And in case you are not aware, I really could not give a damn about politics. I am addressing this purely in a historical context, but you keep politicizing it and pulling in things that do not apply.

And injecting your own personal opinions and beliefs, also which do not apply.

Oozlefinch said:

Yea. That is why in the Voting Rights Act, some of the regions under Jurisdictional Restriction included states like California, New Hampshire, New York, Arizona, Michigan, and Alaska.

And let's not even get into the Klan history in Illinois.

How about stopping your projection onto the South, it does not nessicarily apply.

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What 'progression' onto the South would that be? That they have an abysmal history of slavery, Jim Crow, and intimidation of blacks? That they disgusting rag they wave is in fact symbolic of that oppression? That 'projection'? And yes, southern Illinois and Indiana were just as racist for years. Hardly the point. 'Yes, but....' arguments hardly ever work.

Kal'Stang said:

So you hate the American Flag as well? It is a symbol of treason also since we DID rebel against the British who founded the colonies. It also flew for 80 years over slavery, twice that over segregation. It also flew over the killings and camps "reservations" of Native Americans. And many other atrocities, such as 2 A-bombs going off over Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Oh, by all means, go ahead and say that is not what the American Flag represents anymore. PLEASE make hypocritical statements.....

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No, but then again I'm not British. And it was the American flag, carried by Union troops, that eventually put paid to the traitors' efforts to destroy our country. And the A bombs going off over Nagasaki and Hiroshima were hardly atrocities. They saved more Japanese lives that they took, probably by a factor of ten. But that's another discussion.

Oozlefinch said:

False. Utterly and completely wrong.

The "United States" did not "purge" slavery until December 1864, when the war was almost over. During almost all of the war, slavery was still legal in the United States of America.

Wow,can a person fail any worse then that?

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Yes, the defenders of the treason flag do it with virtually every post.

Wiggen said:

Yes, the defenders of the treason flag do it with virtually every post.

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Actually, I defend nothing.

You seem to forget, I am not political. I could not care less if somebody flies the Confederate Flag. No more then I care if they fly the Gay Pride Flag, the Black Panther Flag, the Communist Flag, or the SLA Flag.



I largely do not care. I only care about honesty and accuracy, and not politicizing, grandstanding, and stereotyping. And any time somebody stands up and says "This stands for that", they are generally stereotyping and I simply can not stand that. Say that anybody who flies the Gay Pride Flag is queer and I will also stand up and say that is wrong, or that anybody who flies the Communist Flag is in favor of the violent overthrow of the US Government.

Do not confuse simple de-politicization with anything other then what i say. If you want to politicize everything and just claim that anybody that does not agree with you is your enemy, feel free.

Just do not expect me to take you as seriously as I did before such a blatent opinionating and politicizing.

Oozlefinch said:

Actually, I defend nothing.

You seem to forget, I am not political. I could not care less if somebody flies the Confederate Flag. No more then I care if they fly the Gay Pride Flag, the Black Panther Flag, the Communist Flag, or the SLA Flag.

I largely do not care. I only care about honesty and accuracy, and not politicizing, grandstanding, and stereotyping. And any time somebody stands up and says "This stands for that", they are generally stereotyping and I simply can not stand that. Say that anybody who flies the Gay Pride Flag is queer and I will also stand up and say that is wrong, or that anybody who flies the Communist Flag is in favor of the violent overthrow of the US Government.

Do not confuse simple de-politicization with anything other then what i say. If you want to politicize everything and just claim that anybody that does not agree with you is your enemy, feel free.

Just do not expect me to take you as seriously as I did before such a blatent opinionating and politicizing.

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You claim you re not political, yet your posts say otherwise. I have sometimes agreed with you, but when you get on this right wing tangent you lose me. Saying you aren't political proves nothing. People who defend the Confederacy and the flying of the confederate flag in spite of what it represents are political. Deal with it or not.

As I recall, you found it highly amusing that someone would question my patriotism with a picture of Che Gueverra, as though opposition to the confederate rag was the same as endorsing a Marxist terrorist. So yes, you are highly political.

Wiggen said:

You claim you re not political, yet your posts say otherwise. I have sometimes agreed with you, but when you get on this right wing tangent you lose me. Saying you aren't political proves nothing. People who defend the Confederacy and the flying of the confederate flag in spite of what it represents are political. Deal with it or not.

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Tell me, would you have a problem with the erection of the Kyokujitsu-ki ("Rising Sun Flag") over a monument dedicated to fallen Japanese soldiers and sailors of WWII?

Would you have a problem with the erection of a British Flag on a monument dedicated to fallen Revolutionary War - War of 1812 soldiers and sailors?

Would you take issue with the raising of the national Flag of Germany (WWII era) over a cemetary dedicated to fallen German Soldiers of WWII?

How about the flag of the USSR over a monument to Soviet War Dead in Poland?

What about a Mexican Flag on a monument to fallen soldiers killed in the Texas Revolution?

This is where as I said things are much less clear to far to many people. Because I can guarantee that most would look at at least one of those I just listed and shout out "Hell no!". However, I would have no problems. Because those flags were the national symbols of the nations that they served under, and I see it as honoring them, not trying to turn it into some kind of political statement.

So yes, I continue to insist that to me this is not political at all, and you are the one that is dragging politics and personal hatred into the discussion. You can attempt to spin it in any way you like, but it continues to spin off of me. Of course, I also do not go around hating inanimate objects and getting all offended by them.

chromium said:

it's the heritage of traitors and slave enablers, nothing more

oh, also sore losers

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Democrats every one.

Oozlefinch said:

Actually, I defend nothing.

You seem to forget, I am not political. I could not care less if somebody flies the Confederate Flag. No more then I care if they fly the Gay Pride Flag, the Black Panther Flag, the Communist Flag, or the SLA Flag.

I largely do not care. I only care about honesty and accuracy, and not politicizing, grandstanding, and stereotyping. And any time somebody stands up and says "This stands for that", they are generally stereotyping and I simply can not stand that. Say that anybody who flies the Gay Pride Flag is queer and I will also stand up and say that is wrong, or that anybody who flies the Communist Flag is in favor of the violent overthrow of the US Government.

Do not confuse simple de-politicization with anything other then what i say. If you want to politicize everything and just claim that anybody that does not agree with you is your enemy, feel free.

Just do not expect me to take you as seriously as I did before such a blatent opinionating and politicizing.

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Post of the day.

This Canadian sees the bars and stars as a part of US history, to ban it or hide it is to deny the war and the issues all together.

I am amused at this sudden attack on an American emblem, since we so often see flag of former enemies worn or used at demonstrations, the Hammer and Sickle was big in the 80's for the left to wield as a banner.

Fearandloathing said:

Post of the day.

This Canadian sees the bars and stars as a part of US history, to ban it or hide it is to deny the war and the issues all together.

I am amused at this sudden attack on an American emblem, since we so often see flag of former enemies worn or used at demonstrations, the Hammer and Sickle was big in the 80's for the left to wield as a banner.

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Confederate Flag Flying over South Carolina State House Sparks Controversy

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Confederate flag flying over South Carolina State House sparks controversy on social media | abc13.com

Talk about not only untrue and inaccurate, but politically charged and deliberately staged. Notice the flag, it does indeed appear to be flying over the State House. And that image (or one almost like it) is what most people think of. But is it honest and accurate?

No.

This is how the flag actually appeared:



As part of a memorial erected to honor the fallen in the Civil War. It did not fly "over the State House", it was a distance away, on ground level, well below the State House.

Propaganda intended to create a response in the way the news outlets wanted. Yellow Journalism at it's finest, and the vast majority of people who bought into it had no idea they were being deliberately lied to.

But, but, but, they are in the right! It was on the grounds, so it might as well be over the State House itself! It stands for what we say it does, and nobody can tell me otherwise!

The continuing statements of the ignorant, bigoted, and stereotypists who think they somehow have the right to tell everybody else not only what to believe, but how to believe and they are right in all things.

Now notice, I do not deny that there are many who do indeed claim that the flag stands for their idiotic racist views, and rally behind it for segregation and subdjigation, but they are indeed the minority. Not the majority as many would have you believe.

Oozlefinch said:

Confederate flag flying over South Carolina State House sparks controversy on social media | abc13.com

Talk about not only untrue and inaccurate, but politically charged and deliberately staged. Notice the flag, it does indeed appear to be flying over the State House. And that image (or one almost like it) is what most people think of. But is it honest and accurate?

No.

This is how the flag actually appeared:

As part of a memorial erected to honor the fallen in the Civil War. It did not fly "over the State House", it was a distance away, on ground level, well below the State House.

Propaganda intended to create a response in the way the news outlets wanted. Yellow Journalism at it's finest, and the vast majority of people who bought into it had no idea they were being deliberately lied to.

But, but, but, they are in the right! It was on the grounds, so it might as well be over the State House itself! It stands for what we say it does, and nobody can tell me otherwise!

The continuing statements of the ignorant, bigoted, and stereotypists who think they somehow have the right to tell everybody else not only what to believe, but how to believe and they are right in all things.

Now notice, I do not deny that there are many who do indeed claim that the flag stands for their idiotic racist views, and rally behind it for segregation and subdjigation, but they are indeed the minority. Not the majority as many would have you believe.

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This is the power of the White House propaganda machine. They made a tragic incident involving a mentally disturbed man into pure racism to fit Obama's agenda. It is no more than that.

Thank you for the pic showing relationship, having worked as a journalist I was aware it was an exaggerated angle, but not how much.

I guess fallen war dead don't matter in America anymore, I know the treatment of the Navy Seals in Benghazi was a disgrace, the killers walk free bragging they beat America and got away with it.

Has the Confederate flag been used by people to promote a racist agenda? Sure, unquestionably. You could even argue for most of its history its been associated with racist causes. But that is not all that it means or stands for. Symbols and meanings change. Others have pointed out there was a time when the American flag stood for a nation that allowed slavery and was actively committing genocide against Native Americans.

What the rebel flag means today is what matters. As others have posted, a majority of this country believes it is a symbol of regional pride. And I'm sure a vast majority of people who actually fly the flag do so not out of racism, but out of Southern pride. This is an example of today's power of claiming to be offended. There is a movement out there that tells us that intent or context does not matter. If you offend someone (at least someone belonging to the right group or groups), you are in the wrong and you must change your ways to appease them. How irrational or illogical or just flat out stupid their reasons for being offended are does not matter.