Air Transport for MRAP Vehicles

"A 747 U.S. cargo plane crashed on its ascent from Bagram, Afghanistan Monday, killing all 7 American crew members aboard. The exact cause of the crash is not known, but thunderstorms were in the area.
The plane, in route to Dubai (United Arab Emirates), was carrying 5 military vehicles according to the Aviation Herald."

Weather may have played role in horrifying Bagram Airfield Crash


Other sources ay the vehicles wer MRAP vehicles


MRAP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It may be important for the US to be able to tranport MRAP vehicles by air reliably, for deploying US forces, with a minimal risk of casualties from explosive devices.




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I'm no aviation expert, but five MRAPs on a cargo plane flying in inclement weather sounds a bit excessive?

"Crews taking off from military bases like Bagram in hostile territory normally plan to climb at the maximum climb angle, to put them at the greatest height above ground level achievable by the time they cross the airfield boundary. This entails a high nose attitude that is maintained for longer than normal, rather than trading climb angle for greater airspeed to make the aircraft easier to handle and safer in the event of an engine failure.

In this film there is no clear visual evidence of a missile travelling toward the aircraft, nor of the explosion or fire that a missile would cause if it were to detonate."

"Another major risk is that if any cargo is not adequately secured in the hold, the high climb angle will cause the payload to slide backward. This could unbalance the aircraft and cause the nose to pitch up, possibly overwhelming the elevator authority available to the pilots if they attempt to push the nose down."


VIDEO: Flightglobal expert analyses Bagram 747 crash sequence


"Army logisticians predict there will be about 20,000 MRAP variants returning from Afghanistan and Kuwait, where they have been piling up to be shipped back to the United States after service in Iraq. The Army’s plan for now is to repair and update them and put many of the MRAPS into prepositioned storage around the world for use in potential future conflicts, as well as put a smaller number in with existing support units.

With few options on the table for the MRAP, there is little or no uproar from Congress that a massive surplus of these vehicles will be sitting around for years to come - and could be potentially useless if a time comes to use them in combat theaters with different conditions than Iraq."

http://fjbruisers.org/forum/index.php?topic=6635.0








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shlunka said:

I'm no aviation expert, but five MRAPs on a cargo plane flying in inclement weather sounds a bit excessive?

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The 747 can haul 248,000 pounds and an MRAP can go up to 60,000 pounds. Maybe a case of gross overload and the pilot decided to let the low side drag and he put it in the ditch.

apdst said:

The 747 can haul 248,000 pounds and an MRAP can go up to 60,000 pounds. Maybe a case of gross overload and the pilot decided to let the low side drag and he put it in the ditch.

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I highly doubt the AC is going to allow the aircraft's Weight & Balance to be out of tolerance.


The following is a great guess.

From Gladiator's link.

Horrible accident. The last 30 seconds must have seemed an eternity to the crew.

Not the first accident involving load shift. Load improperly secured, human error.

Henry David said:

Horrible accident. The last 30 seconds must have seemed an eternity to the crew.

Not the first accident involving load shift. Load improperly secured, human error.

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It may be that the cargo tie down points in the air craft are not designed to hold the weight of an MRAP.




National Air Cargo 747 Crash at Bagram - Baseops Forums - Page 5





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Okay, here's a side of this nobody is reporting on -- we have no realistic land route available to move our military equipment out of Afghanistan!!!!!

When we moved out stuff out of Iraq we had TWO possible routes - west through Turkey or into the Persian Gulf.

Under this president/administration, we've lost access to neighboring countries to the north and Pakistan is in such a mess that we cannot take them through there. What does that leave? Costly and dangerous evacuation via air.

Gladiator said:

It may be that the cargo tie down points in the air craft are not designed to hold the weight of an MRAP.




National Air Cargo 747 Crash at Bagram - Baseops Forums - Page 5





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More likely, a human failed to secure the load properly, and that's why it shifted. Human error.

Day after day in that business, similar trips are flown successfully, no shifting loads. A very good record.

But sometimes the system fails, and it's the human element. Such accidents have happened over the years in other places. I doubt very much that is the first time that airplane ever carried MRAPS

The engineering values of the tie down points and the straps are easily calculated. They routinely carry loads such as these. They carry the Abrams in an airplane. Probably no more than 2 or so.

Gladiator said:

"A 747 U.S. cargo plane crashed on its ascent from Bagram, Afghanistan Monday, killing all 7 American crew members aboard. The exact cause of the crash is not known, but thunderstorms were in the area.
The plane, in route to Dubai (United Arab Emirates), was carrying 5 military vehicles according to the Aviation Herald."

Weather may have played role in horrifying Bagram Airfield Crash


Other sources ay the vehicles wer MRAP vehicles


MRAP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It may be important for the US to be able to tranport MRAP vehicles by air reliably, for deploying US forces, with a minimal risk of casualties from explosive devices.




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I highly doubt that the cargo was the problem.

Gladiator said:

It may be that the cargo tie down points in the air craft are not designed to hold the weight of an MRAP.

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I doubt it. The 747 cargo liner is designed to carry well over 800,000 lbs of cargo. The tie-downs on them have to be very strong. This was just a freak accident. It sucks, but it happens.

Apparently you didn't read that which came before.

Excon said:

From Gladiator's link.

According to a listener on frequency the crew reported the aircraft stalled due to a possible load shift.​

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Excon said:

​

Apparently you didn't read that which came before.

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Apparently reading cognition isn't your thing. The problem wasn't the cargo, it was improper securing of the cargo. As stated, these jets can hold 800,000 lbs. The entire purpose of the 747 cargo liner is to transport extremely large shipments that no other aircraft can. Shipments like the space shuttle. 5 MRAPs would only be around 140,000 lbs, which would not be any problem at all for this aircraft if the vehicles were properly secured.

Surtr said:

Apparently reading cognition isn't your thing. The problem wasn't the cargo, it was improper securing of the cargo. As stated, these jets can hold 800,000 lbs. The entire purpose of the 747 cargo liner is to transport extremely large shipments that no other aircraft can. Shipments like the space shuttle. 5 MRAPs would only be around 140,000 lbs, which would not be any problem at all for this aircraft if the vehicles were properly secured.

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Look at you trying to cover for your misstatement.
Load shifting means "in general" that it was the cargo that the problem came from, whether that be in how it was secured or not.
So stop playing games in trying to cover what you said.
If you did not mean it that way you should not have said it that way.

Excon said:

Look at you trying to cover for your misstatement.
Load shifting means "in general" that it was the cargo that the problem came from, whether that be in how it was secured or not.
So stop playing games in trying to cover what you said.
If you did not mean it that way you should not have said it that way.

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Improper tie down is a crew problem, not a cargo problem. Play internet tough guy with someone who gives a ****.

Surtr said:

Improper tie down is a crew problem, not a cargo problem.

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:doh
The cargo shifting is a problem with the cargo, no matter who brought it about.

Surtr said:

Play internet tough guy with someone who gives a ****.

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:doh
iLOL
You being so defensive, tells me I was right.

Cargo shifting because it was secured improperly is NOT a cargo problem?

Henry David said:

Cargo shifting because it was secured improperly is NOT a cargo problem?

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The MRAP's were not around when the 747's flying today, were designed and built. So one issue could be whether the 747 tie down tracks and matching straps are the best design for carrying an MRAP, weighing some 30,000 Pounds.

Another question is what tie downs, and with what configuration, were used on the 747 that crashed at Begram with 5 MRAP's aboard.



"This April 29 crash of a chartered 747 freighter carrying U.S. Army MRAP vehicles at Bagram airfield, Afghanistan, is being blamed on shifting cargo — and thus a shifting center of gravity. Three years ago I watched military and civilian crews pack and unpack MRAPs in a 747, illustrating the precautions normally taken."

War Is Boring » That Bagram 747 Crash and Shifting Cargo



"Anyone noticed how the flaps are full down?, the pilot killed the airspeed with the flaps down and landing gears down, not sure why he pulled the nose up, and stalled the airplane. It doesn't look like a "cargo shift" just like the FineAir DC-8 in Miami, Florida some years ago.

National Air Cargo 747 Crashes at Bagram, Afghanistan


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longknife said:

Okay, here's a side of this nobody is reporting on -- we have no realistic land route available to move our military equipment out of Afghanistan!!!!! When we moved out stuff out of Iraq we had TWO possible routes - west through Turkey or into the Persian Gulf. Under this president/administration, we've lost access to neighboring countries to the north and Pakistan is in such a mess that we cannot take them through there. What does that leave? Costly and dangerous evacuation via air.

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BushII 'lost' the northern route out of Afghanistan before he left office. (Though the northern route was actually a airbridge to more airfields leading out, there is no land route to a major shipping point out of Afghanistan up north unless you speak Roosian.)

The way through Pakistan has always been a hot mess. US Forces don't drive through Pakistan. US Contractors don't drive in the convoys bringing in fuel and other supplies through Pakistan. Third world drivers do that nasty and very dangerous job and have since way before President Obama took office.

The 'side' nobody is reporting on is we never HAD a realistic land route IN or OUT of Afghanistan.

And in other news, geography not the strong suit of US Policy makers or the average citizen... more at 10....

Gladiator said:

The MRAP's were not around when the 747's flying today, were designed and built. So one issue could be whether the 747 tie down tracks and matching straps are the best design for carrying an MRAP, weighing some 30,000 Pounds.

Another question is what tie downs, and with what configuration, were used on the 747 that crashed at Begram with 5 MRAP's aboard.



"This April 29 crash of a chartered 747 freighter carrying U.S. Army MRAP vehicles at Bagram airfield, Afghanistan, is being blamed on shifting cargo — and thus a shifting center of gravity. Three years ago I watched military and civilian crews pack and unpack MRAPs in a 747, illustrating the precautions normally taken."

War Is Boring » That Bagram 747 Crash and Shifting Cargo



"Anyone noticed how the flaps are full down?, the pilot killed the airspeed with the flaps down and landing gears down, not sure why he pulled the nose up, and stalled the airplane. It doesn't look like a "cargo shift" just like the FineAir DC-8 in Miami, Florida some years ago.

National Air Cargo 747 Crashes at Bagram, Afghanistan


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Yes, it's quite possible what you say is right. I suppose the accident board will find out if that was the case.

What I would be curious about is if this was the first flight ever of 747 carrying MRAPS? Your post suggests not.

As for beginning the takeoff with full flaps, I doubt that, but I'm not qualified in any Boeing. My guess is that if full flaps were selected prior to takeoff, when throttles were brought up there would be all sorts of warnings generated, especially since it seems to have been a newer aircraft.

May 6 issue of AW&ST reports that the 747 landed at Bagram only for fuel. It was loaded and departed from Camp Bastion in Afghanistan, and was enroute to Dubai.

No cargo loaded at Bagram. The mystery deepens. :shock:

Henry David said:

May 6 issue of AW&ST reports that the 747 landed at Bagram only for fuel. It was loaded and departed from Camp Bastion in Afghanistan, and was enroute to Dubai.

No cargo loaded at Bagram. The mystery deepens. :shock:

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"Schiavo oversaw FAA responses to air crashes as inspector general at the Transportation Department in the 1990s. She said three things can cause a stall like the one seen on the video: first, a loss of engine power; second, runaway trim in which the small stabilizer tabs on a 747-400's tail elevators are incorrectly set upward, either because of a malfunction or human error; third, cargo sliding to the back of the plane on takeoff, upsetting its weight balance.

Investigators will try to determine whether the plane's fuel might have had water in it, which could have caused the engines to lose power, Schiavo said. They'll want to make sure the plane's takeoff speed was set to the correct velocity—if it goes too slowly, the plane would stall. In one example, investigators believe an incorrect takeoff setting caused the 2004 crash of a 747-244 jet in Halifax, Nova Scotia. And, of course, they'll explore whether the load was secured and balanced correctly. The flight's loadmaster, whose role was to secure and balance the cargo, was an employee of National, company spokeswoman Shirley Kaufman said in an email. (Orlando-based National Airlines is a subsidiary of National Air Cargo Holdings.)

Read more: What Caused the Deadly 747 Crash in Afghanistan? - Popular Mechanics
Follow us: @PopMech on Twitter | popularmechanics on Facebook
Visit us at PopularMechanics.com"

What Caused the Deadly 747 Crash in Afghanistan? - Popular Mechanics


The front wheel of the landing gear seems to be down, as the 747 approaches the ground, in one of the photos in the article below.

"In a statement, the Taliban claimed responsibility for the crash, but NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) said there were no reports of insurgent activity in or around the base, which is one of the largest in the country and located about 25 miles north of Kabul"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rge-seven-Americans-killed.html#ixzz2TJ2zyPkz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ic-stories-emerge-seven-Americans-killed.html



Aviation Week

http://www.aviationweek.com/DEFENSE.aspx


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Examination of the wreckage revealed that some of the tie-down buckes had broken. So the track for tie-down straps apparently held OK, but the buckles being used for the M-wraps were inadequte strength, or improperly postitioned.


California Wildfire Spreading Fast | Video - ABC News


MyWebSearch



"Investigators sifting through the wreckage of a Boeing 747-400 cargo plane that crashed in Afghanistan on April 29 have found that several of the straps used to tie down the 16-ton MRAP fighting vehicles broke after takeoff.


This has led to speculation that the massive armored vehicles shifted shortly after the civilian cargo plane took off from Bagram air base, sending it careering out of control."


Read more: Bragram 747 cargo plane crash: MRAP vehicles plane was carrying 'broke free of straps, causing crash' | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Bragram 747 cargo plane crash: MRAP vehicles plane was carrying 'broke free of straps, causing crash' | Mail Online








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And apparently they have found scraps of the Boeing on the runway, broken off as the vehicles rolled aft.

Damn shame.

Gladiator said:

Examination of the wreckage revealed that some of the tie-down buckes had broken. So the track for tie-down straps apparently held OK, but the buckles being used for the M-wraps were inadequte strength, or improperly postitioned.


California Wildfire Spreading Fast | Video - ABC News


MyWebSearch



"Investigators sifting through the wreckage of a Boeing 747-400 cargo plane that crashed in Afghanistan on April 29 have found that several of the straps used to tie down the 16-ton MRAP fighting vehicles broke after takeoff.


This has led to speculation that the massive armored vehicles shifted shortly after the civilian cargo plane took off from Bagram air base, sending it careering out of control."


Read more: Bragram 747 cargo plane crash: MRAP vehicles plane was carrying 'broke free of straps, causing crash' | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Bragram 747 cargo plane crash: MRAP vehicles plane was carrying 'broke free of straps, causing crash' | Mail Online
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In my MRAP classes we were told never to use straps for MRAPS. Chains and binders only.