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Will Trump restore the rust belt to its former glory?

Will Trump restore the rust belt to it's good ol days?

  • yes

    Votes: 1 3.8%

  • no

    Votes: 25 96.2%
  • Total voters
    26
Mac77 said:
Whose economy?

You are being very evadive instead of just giving a straight answer
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Our economy. I have given you straight answers you are being intentionally obtuse.
 
Crovax said:
Our economy. I have given you straight answers you are being intentionally obtuse.
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We have a $500 bil trade deficit with china thanks to cleap products made in that country

Moving the factories back home would be good for our economy
 
Crovax said:
Trade deficits arent inherently bad. If fact if you loom at our smallest trade deficits they happen during recessions.

Here's an article written 18 years ago but it rings just as true today

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/are-trade-deficits-really-bad-news
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That is the standard free trade atprguement thst I have heard many times before

But things have not worked out the way Cato predicted

The US economy has not grown since 1998 and the opening of free trade at the rate it did under protectionism
 
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shrubnose said:
Lots of things are made in the USA.Will we start making more things in the USA?

I'll believe it when it starts happening.
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The whole point of electing trump was to make believers out of people like you
 
NO. He used these people like toilet paper and will now flush them and their concerns away.
 
Mac77 said:
Meaning what? Do you want to keep the factory in china instead of locating it here?
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Want is one thing, capable of having is another. Back after we broke with England, England WANTED to keep their textile factories running strong like they had for centuries. However a more modern American textile industry with hydro power, located much closer to comfortable cotton with cheap labor meant the English factories lost their ability to compete.

Now we face a similar condition- more modern factories with CHEAP labor and little if any restrictions on pollution in China undercuts our ability to compete. We can cry foul like England did to the Fledgling American Industry, but economics are what they are.

If you have a magic wand that can change this reality please share it with the class... :peace
 
notquiteright said:
Want is one thing, capable of having is another. Back after we broke with England, England WANTED to keep their textile factories running strong like they had for centuries. However a more modern American textile industry with hydro power, located much closer to comfortable cotton with cheap labor meant the English factories lost their ability to compete.

Now we face a similar condition- more modern factories with CHEAP labor and little if any restrictions on pollution in China undercuts our ability to compete. We can cry foul like England did to the Fledgling American Industry, but economics are what they are.

If you have a magic wand that can change this reality please share it with the class... :peace
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I will only say this about the ancient history of England and cotton

Our competative advantage in textiles may have prevented England from importing it goods to America but that did not cause English factories to close because England protected its factories through tariffs

And tariffs are what we need To place on cheap chinese imports
 
I kinda looked into it a little bit and I found that slow economy and free trade agreements are only part of what caused the factory belt to rust. Apparently it also has to do with the southeast having less strict labor laws and increasing automation. Economies in the south and west are growing. So as the economy of the rust belt is figuratively moving south, the economy of the US as a whole is literally moving south.
 
notquiteright said:
Want is one thing, capable of having is another. Back after we broke with England, England WANTED to keep their textile factories running strong like they had for centuries. However a more modern American textile industry with hydro power, located much closer to comfortable cotton with cheap labor meant the English factories lost their ability to compete.

Now we face a similar condition- more modern factories with CHEAP labor and little if any restrictions on pollution in China undercuts our ability to compete. We can cry foul like England did to the Fledgling American Industry, but economics are what they are.

If you have a magic wand that can change this reality please share it with the class... :peace
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The US out competed the UK because of geographical factors. China is outcompeting us because of less labor laws.
 
Masterhawk said:
The US out competed the UK because of geographical factors. China is outcompeting us because of less labor laws.
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This is not new

If America had been run by free trader libertarians in the previous century the Japanese would have been more than happy to supply America with all the consumer good we needed prior to WWII

But then when war came we could never have defeated them without our industrial base.
 
Masterhawk said:
Trump's policies which seem to appeal to workers include abolishing NAFTA and putting a tariff on every good made by US companies overseas. He also has economic plans whcih despite worsening the wealth disparity will likely increase economic growth.
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Does not look like many think he is going to do squat about the issue. You asked.
 
There’s No Debate Fracking Is Bringing Manufacturing Back
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Are we forgetting that Trump is going to relax regulations from executive orders from Obama?
 
coldjoint said:
Are we forgetting that Trump is going to relax regulations from executive orders from Obama?
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Yes, trump is against executive orders, unless he is the one making them.
 
Casper said:
Yes, trump is against executive orders, unless he is the one making them.
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That was not the point. There are jobs in energy that Obama stopped. Trump can fix that, and should.
 
Mac77 said:
I will only say this about the ancient history of England and cotton.Our competative advantage in textiles may have prevented England from importing it goods to America but that did not cause English factories to close because England protected its factories through tariffs. And tariffs are what we need To place on cheap chinese imports
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Actually the tariff system is what WE used to protect our fledgling industries (like emerging nations have done recently). England couldn't protect their industry with tariffs as they depended on trade off shore to keep their industries booming- they lacked a big enough domestic market for their level of production. Our cheaper goods beat them out in Europe and the rest of the world.

That continued into the industrial age where a cheap Ford outsold the more expensive and overly complex (by that day's standard) European vehicles. The elite may have owned Rolls around the world but Ford outsold Rolls Royce around the world.

As England lost her captive markets (her overseas Empire) she lost her factories as those markets gladly accepted cheaper goods from competing countries- no tariff blocks that.

If we attempt a tariff system for incoming goods OUR goods will simply no longer have a market off shore as the other nations will block our imports.

Bottom line here and abroad remains the same as in Henry Ford's day- the guy who can produce the most the cheapest with some reliability and consumer demand will win. For every rust belt worker longing for a return of the good ol' days there are 4 consumers who just want cheap goods and they don't care who made it... :peace
 
coldjoint said:
That was not the point. There are jobs in energy that Obama stopped. Trump can fix that, and should.
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What jobs in energy did Obama stop... drilling and production has gone through the roof during Obama's presidency- we are EXPORTING oil again. The oil patch is literally shaking from drilling and fracking. The job loss has been from the historic boom/bust nature of the oil 'free market' lack of national policy... :peace
 
notquiteright said:
Actually the tariff system is what WE used to protect our fledgling industries (like emerging nations have done recently).

England couldn't protect their industry with tariffs as they depended on trade off shore to keep their industries booming- they lacked a big enough domestic market for their level of production. Our cheaper goods beat them out in Europe and the rest of the world.

That continued into the industrial age where a cheap Ford outsold the more expensive and overly complex (by that day's standard) European vehicles. The elite may have owned Rolls around the world but Ford outsold Rolls Royce around the world.

As England lost her captive markets (her overseas Empire) she lost her factories as those markets gladly accepted cheaper goods from competing countries- no tariff blocks that.

If we attempt a tariff system for incoming goods OUR goods will simply no longer have a market off shore as the other nations will block our imports.

Bottom line here and abroad remains the same as in Henry Ford's day- the guy who can produce the most the cheapest with some reliability and consumer demand will win. For every rust belt worker longing for a return of the good ol' days there are 4 consumers who just want cheap goods and they don't care who made it... :peace
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Now you are just making up history on the fly to suit your argument

The european powers did practice protectionism and impose tariffs of each others competing products.
 
Mac77 said:
Now you are just making up history on the fly to suit your argument. The european powers did practice protectionism and impose tariffs of each others competing products.
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I said tariffs didn't 'save' factories in England... a Captive market called the British Empire built that. Losing THAT monopoly doomed British industry. Forming monopolies was the 'protectionism' practiced. Our industries tried to do the same resulting in a rather dirty fight with Rockefeller, a Tea Pot Dome scandal and a few other events that made the papers.

Duty/import tax/tariffs were more for Gubmint income as having enough cash to run monarchies, expand Empires and fight each other and of course 'protect' the natives from heathen influences cost money and the average working stiff couldn't pay much- if anything- as far as income tax goes.

The competition wasn't so much to block competing industries as to hurt competing nations- on the Continent or overseas fighting for new markets and sources of raw materials to exploit- was pricey business. The concept was to deny the other countries the income from exports AS WELL as deny domestic goods for the competing nation to tax. (Most European Customs services were as much to BLOCK exports to competing nations as to keep contraband out.)

FYI the Brits attempted to protect their textile industry by prohibiting certain workers from leaving and attempting to closely guard their machinery and it's operation.

More to this than- 'Tariffs work and protect jobs'...

Not rewriting history but rather pushing the talk radio blather aside... :peace
 
Masterhawk said:
Trump's policies which seem to appeal to workers include abolishing NAFTA and putting a tariff on every good made by US companies overseas. He also has economic plans whcih despite worsening the wealth disparity will likely increase economic growth.
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Wow take a look at this poll's results! Trump will not be able to send manufacturing jobs back there. They are already competing with lower wage workers and automated systems. If Trump tells a company to build more factories, we are at a point in time where that won't necessarily mean hire more people! Factories are pretty autonomous these days.
 
notquiteright said:
What jobs in energy did Obama stop... drilling and production has gone through the roof during Obama's presidency- we are EXPORTING oil again. The oil patch is literally shaking from drilling and fracking. The job loss has been from the historic boom/bust nature of the oil 'free market' lack of national policy... :peace
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Well, he put a moratorium on off shore drilling. He stopped the Keystone pipeline, and made it very hard to get discovery leases. Any gains in oil is from the private sector. Obama has done nothing to help.
 
I can't understand how this poll is necessary. He has as much chance of doing this as he does of delivering on his other promise... to bring back Joe Paterno.
 
notquiteright said:
I said tariffs didn't 'save' factories in England... a Captive market called the British Empire built that. Losing THAT monopoly doomed British industry. Forming monopolies was the 'protectionism' practiced. Our industries tried to do the same resulting in a rather dirty fight with Rockefeller, a Tea Pot Dome scandal and a few other events that made the papers.

Duty/import tax/tariffs were more for Gubmint income as having enough cash to run monarchies, expand Empires and fight each other and of course 'protect' the natives from heathen influences cost money and the average working stiff couldn't pay much- if anything- as far as income tax goes.

The competition wasn't so much to block competing industries as to hurt competing nations- on the Continent or overseas fighting for new markets and sources of raw materials to exploit- was pricey business. The concept was to deny the other countries the income from exports AS WELL as deny domestic goods for the competing nation to tax. (Most European Customs services were as much to BLOCK exports to competing nations as to keep contraband out.)

FYI the Brits attempted to protect their textile industry by prohibiting certain workers from leaving and attempting to closely guard their machinery and it's operation.




More to this than- 'Tariffs work and protect jobs'...

Not rewriting history but rather pushing the talk radio blather aside... :peace
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You are rewriting history because 21st Century reality is not your friend

Tariffs would force multinnational manufacturers to locate factories in the US and employ American workers
 
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