Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes

shanners said:

Perhaps he's worried about the Jewish laws of din moser and mesirah which can incur a death sentence on any Jew who informs on the group or reports to the civil authorities on illegal or immoral activities within the Jewish community:

"A group of rabbis have issued a halachic opinion implying that OC Central Command Maj.Gen. Yair Naveh deserves to be killed. The rabbis, all connected with a movement to resurrect the Sanhedrin, the ancient Jewish governing body, said in their halachic ruling this week that Naveh was guilty of being a moser, a Hebrew word that can be roughly translated as an informant or traitor."

- Matthew Wagner, "Rabbis: Naveh deserves to be killed", The Jerusalem Post, 18 January 2007.

Click to expand...

I always appreciate it when people completely clueless about anything Jewish (other than the control over the media/government/human mind through particle beams, which they incidentally apear quite "knowledgable" about) try to reason based on various premises about their understanding of Jewish religion/culture/political dynamics/life.

Cause, yeah, I am totally sure that Goldstone was concerned with what some nutter rabbis have to say. That must be it.

CJ 2.0 said:

I always appreciate it when people completely clueless about anything Jewish (other than the control over the media/government/human mind through particle beams, which they incidentally apear quite "knowledgable" about) try to reason based on various premises about their understanding of Jewish religion/culture/political dynamics/life.

Cause, yeah, I am totally sure that Goldstone was concerned with what some nutter rabbis have to say. That must be it.

Click to expand...

What shanners said did not express any ignorance about Jewish customs. Obviously the vast majority of Jews today do not adhere to such radical religious views, but it would certainly not be unusual for Goldstone to be concerned about such radicals. I mean, the incident shanners cited basically is no different from a Muslim cleric issuing a fatwa calling for someone's death. Certainly someone being highly critical of a Muslim country might be concerned about radicals making calls for his or her death.

I don't know if Goldstone had any specific concerns, but he probably did receive death threats for his report. Whether that represented part of what influenced him to change his opinion is another matter.

However, I did find this:

Dershowitz Explains Critical Goldstone Remark

Let's cut all this waste of typing about this subject and make it real easy.

Let's assume that the general assembly on the U.N. meeting and someone raised his/her hand and called for an end to Israel. No reason, maybe it is raining outside and we have nothing better to do.

Does anyone believe that the motion would not carry at the U.N. If they said let's leave it up to the unbiased U.N. human rights commission, how do you think that vote would come out.

Anyone who believes that Israel would win either vote can continue wasting their time in this thread.

washunut said:

Let's cut all this waste of typing about this subject and make it real easy.

Let's assume that the general assembly on the U.N. meeting and someone raised his/her hand and called for an end to Israel. No reason, maybe it is raining outside and we have nothing better to do.

Does anyone believe that the motion would not carry at the U.N. If they said let's leave it up to the unbiased U.N. human rights commission, how do you think that vote would come out.

Anyone who believes that Israel would win either vote can continue wasting their time in this thread.

Click to expand...

Despite what you may think the world is not out to get Israel or the Jews in general. Calling for an investigation into Israel's actions in the Palestinian Territories is one thing, but not even many of the Muslim countries would back a call for "ending" Israel. The notion the world in general would is just psychotic.

Demon of Light said:

Despite what you may think the world is not out to get Israel or the Jews in general. Calling for an investigation into Israel's actions in the Palestinian Territories is one thing, but not even many of the Muslim countries would back a call for "ending" Israel. The notion the world in general would is just psychotic.

Click to expand...

It is unfortunate that you have to rely on name calling, but not totally unexpected. Like I said you and your ilk can have this thread. Not sure why I am even bothering to reply to such an unworthy post.

Mika-El said:

Yah I am running around with a killer blade hidden in my bagel and when I get up close to Goldstone, I'll slit hsi throat.

Let me know when you are done with the crazed Jew references.

Click to expand...

Do you realize that Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's assassin, the "crazed Jew" Yigal Amir, was similarly motivated? Amir is a Talmudic scholar who was trained in a yeshiva. If you want to learn more just look up I. Shahak and N .Mezvinsky, Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Chapter Seven: The Religious Background of Rabin's Assassination.

washunut said:

It is unfortunate that you have to rely on name calling, but not totally unexpected. Like I said you and your ilk can have this thread. Not sure why I am even bothering to reply to such an unworthy post.

Click to expand...

It is not name-calling. The idea that you put forward of the UN General Assembly or Human Rights Council endorsing a call for an end to Israel is just plain crazy.

washunut said:

It is unfortunate that you have to rely on name calling, but not totally unexpected. Like I said you and your ilk can have this thread. Not sure why I am even bothering to reply to such an unworthy post.

Click to expand...

Let's assume that the general assembly on the U.N. meeting and someone raised his/her hand and called for an end to Israel. No reason, maybe it is raining outside and we have nothing better to do.

Does anyone believe that the motion would not carry at the U.N. If they said let's leave it up to the unbiased U.N. human rights commission, how do you think that vote would come out.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah, you poop gems, bro.

alexa said:

I didn't know they had an army.

If you are denying it was against International Law then you would. It is against international Law to kill civilians and the police are civilians.

If the UK indiscriminately kills civilians then it is right and proper that she should be treated in exactly the same way. The UK has signed up to be committed to International Humanitarian Law and to answer to the International Criminal Court. The US and Israel not. I do not know about France.

However Washnut, it has struck my mind that possibly an added interest of the UN in this area is because it is part of the quartet. I could be wrong but it certainly gives an added reason and please do not forget that Hamas is accused of war crimes as well

No, it comes down to International Law and International Humanitarian Law. That is what we are discussing. Policemen are seen as civilians by International Law so it is necessary to prove this was not the case if people are trying to argue that it was not against International Law to target them.

now I live in a different part of the world than you and it is past my bed time. Goodnight.

Click to expand...

This topic was done to death when it arose some time ago and at that time no contradictory evidence was provided to suggest that the Police casualties should be counted as anything other than civilian casualties and that the Hamas statement on casualties actually supported those given in evidence to Goldstein...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...ts-600-700-its-men-were-killed-cast-lead.html

Why do people believe that waiting for four months and then raising the same untruths again will fall under the radar?

Demon of Light said:

Despite what you may think the world is not out to get Israel or the Jews in general. Calling for an investigation into Israel's actions in the Palestinian Territories is one thing, but not even many of the Muslim countries would back a call for "ending" Israel. The notion the world in general would is just psychotic.

Click to expand...

I will not speak for others only myself. I will admit in my personal case I do feel on many days, that the world is out to get Israel. How much of that is paying attention to negative news stories or dwelling on extremist comments on my part I do not know. I know you feel the same way some days when you hear sweeping negative generalized statements about Muslims or Palestinians.

I do admit sometimes there is a sort of gut anger reaction to some of the comments I read.

I think it is fair to say as well that BOTH Israelis and Palestinians have developed what I best call a "siege" mentality-a sort of colective psychosis from years of non stop conflict. It has evolved into a collective psychic phenomena in both societies.

For example in the Palestinian population there are extremely high levels of clinical depression which I am sure you know and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why. This results in higher then average suicide rates for example or eating disorders, etc.

In studies on Israelis one theory is the high rates of car accident deaths and dangerous driving is linked to this phenomena as well.

I am sure you have read articles on the psychological effects of this never ending conflict.

In my case, and I think in fairness with some NOT all Jews who support Israel, yes we do have a sort of hypervigilance or exagerrated startle response to criticism of Israel and sometimes it comes across to others as an illogical bias.

However I think people like me also try our hardest to balance our emotional attachment to Israel with practical reality and no we do not see everything Israel does as perfect just like I do not think Palestinians or Muslims can easily be labelled as being all emotional and illogical because some feel very deeply connected to Palestinians.

I would hope we can balance our emotions with our reasoning. Some days its not easy yes.

Just wanted to acknowledge your comment but say its manifested on both sides of the debate and all we Jews, Muslims, Israelis, Palestinians get painted in the same negative brush sometimes.

Then again its human nature. If one extremist Christian burns a Bible, it can be interpreted as a negative thing against all Christian evangelist types. Its a mucky world. I did appreciate you acknowledging the crackpot Rabbias are no different then the extremist Muslim clergy in your earlier e-mail. It is the same analogy.

Now between you and me, I doubt a seasoned Judge like Goldstone worries too much about anger directed at his comments. He probably as a judge learned to distance himself from that kind of reaction years ago. Then again you never know. He is a Jew and accusing him of being a traitor against Jews must have on some level impacted on him.

I personally believe he over-compensated to try show he was not bias in favour of Israel. I think in the future it is not wise to have a Jewish person be the sole arbiter of such reports if for no other reason they get accused of being bias in favour of Israel or over-compensating the other way.

I think it would be wiser to have a committee and assure the council is made up of genuinely neutral people as the final evaluators of evidence if that is possible.

I am not sure anymore if it is. It appears everyone and their mother in law has a political agenda of some kind. The ability to find genuinely neutral people to mediate/arbitrate has become very difficult in world conflicts.

washunut said:

Let's cut all this waste of typing about this subject and make it real easy.

Let's assume that the general assembly on the U.N. meeting and someone raised his/her hand and called for an end to Israel. No reason, maybe it is raining outside and we have nothing better to do.

Does anyone believe that the motion would not carry at the U.N. If they said let's leave it up to the unbiased U.N. human rights commission, how do you think that vote would come out.

Anyone who believes that Israel would win either vote can continue wasting their time in this thread.

Click to expand...

The motion would not carry out in the UN and your utter ignorance shows here. The US would not allow it, nor would the EU.

Saying that the world is out to get Israel (or all Jews for that matter) is on par with saying that Jews control the world. Its nothing but a BS conspiracy theory.

Mika-El said:

I will not speak for others only myself. I will admit in my personal case I do feel on many days, that the world is out to get Israel. How much of that is paying attention to negative news stories or dwelling on extremist comments on my part I do not know. I know you feel the same way some days when you hear sweeping negative generalized statements about Muslims or Palestinians.

I do admit sometimes there is a sort of gut anger reaction to some of the comments I read.

I think it is fair to say as well that BOTH Israelis and Palestinians have developed what I best call a "siege" mentality-a sort of colective psychosis from years of non stop conflict. It has evolved into a collective psychic phenomena in both societies.

For example in the Palestinian population there are extremely high levels of clinical depression which I am sure you know and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out why. This results in higher then average suicide rates for example or eating disorders, etc.

In studies on Israelis one theory is the high rates of car accident deaths and dangerous driving is linked to this phenomena as well.

I am sure you have read articles on the psychological effects of this never ending conflict.

In my case, and I think in fairness with some NOT all Jews who support Israel, yes we do have a sort of hypervigilance or exagerrated startle response to criticism of Israel and sometimes it comes across to others as an illogical bias.

However I think people like me also try our hardest to balance our emotional attachment to Israel with practical reality and no we do not see everything Israel does as perfect just like I do not think Palestinians or Muslims can easily be labelled as being all emotional and illogical because some feel very deeply connected to Palestinians.

I would hope we can balance our emotions with our reasoning. Some days its not easy yes.

Just wanted to acknowledge your comment but say its manifested on both sides of the debate and all we Jews, Muslims, Israelis, Palestinians get painted in the same negative brush sometimes.

Then again its human nature. If one extremist Christian burns a Bible, it can be interpreted as a negative thing against all Christian evangelist types. Its a mucky world. I did appreciate you acknowledging the crackpot Rabbias are no different then the extremist Muslim clergy in your earlier e-mail. It is the same analogy.

Now between you and me, I doubt a seasoned Judge like Goldstone worries too much about anger directed at his comments. He probably as a judge learned to distance himself from that kind of reaction years ago. Then again you never know. He is a Jew and accusing him of being a traitor against Jews must have on some level impacted on him.

I personally believe he over-compensated to try show he was not bias in favour of Israel. I think in the future it is not wise to have a Jewish person be the sole arbiter of such reports if for no other reason they get accused of being bias in favour of Israel or over-compensating the other way.

I think it would be wiser to have a committee and assure the council is made up of genuinely neutral people as the final evaluators of evidence if that is possible.

I am not sure anymore if it is. It appears everyone and their mother in law has a political agenda of some kind. The ability to find genuinely neutral people to mediate/arbitrate has become very difficult in world conflicts.

Click to expand...

Just so you know, the poster you are engaging has no qualms about musing how the world would be a better place if all the Jews were to drop off the face of the earth and stop being Jews (" Honestly, the world would be a better place if Jews converted to a cosmopolitan and pacifist religion or, for those non-religious Jews, simply shed their attachment to Jewish identity.") and has never, ever, acknowledged that the Jews have anythign legitimate they are fighting for or that Palestinian destructionist goals are even remotely a problem.

When a person tries to justify their own views by being reasonable and conciliatory and the other party just wants that person to end the essence of his or her very existence, I would suggested that any efforts at being concilliatory will only be used to your disadvantage.

And I say this not because it is entirely off topic but because it is a microcosm of the wider conflict here. There are very, very many who simply want Israel to go away and for the Jews to stop being Jews. A great deal of these exist within the Palestinian body politic and dictate Palestinian policy. Efforts at being appologetically conciliatory will do nothing to move these people to understanding, appreciating or sympathizing with your point of view.

it just puts the smell of blood in the air.

Mika-El said:

I will not speak for others only myself. I will admit in my personal case I do feel on many days, that the world is out to get Israel. How much of that is paying attention to negative news stories or dwelling on extremist comments on my part I do not know. I know you feel the same way some days when you hear sweeping negative generalized statements about Muslims or Palestinians.

Click to expand...

That is actually not how I feel at any point. I do not see Muslims as a persecuted people, though the Palestinians are a somewhat different story, mainly because I see how most Arab countries have treated them in addition to how Israel has treated them. Still, I recognize that there are many countries and people who support the Palestinians. There has never been a moment to my recollection that I did feel in any way that the world was against them.

CJ 2.0 said:

Just so you know, the poster you are engaging has no qualms about musing how the world would be a better place if all the Jews were to drop off the face of the earth and stop being Jews ("Honestly, the world would be a better place if Jews converted to a cosmopolitan and pacifist religion or, for those non-religious Jews, simply shed their attachment to Jewish identity.") and has never, ever, acknowledged that the Jews have anythign legitimate they are fighting for or that Palestinian destructionist goals are even remotely a problem.

When a person tries to justify their own views by being reasonable and conciliatory and the other party just wants that person to end the essence of his or her very existence, I would suggested that any efforts at being concilliatory will only be used to your disadvantage.

And I say this not because it is entirely off topic but because it is a microcosm of the wider conflict here. There are very, very many who simply want Israel to go away and for the Jews to stop being Jews. A great deal of these exist within the Palestinian body politic and dictate Palestinian policy. Efforts at being appologetically conciliatory will do nothing to move these people to understanding, appreciating or sympathizing with your point of view.

it just puts the smell of blood in the air.

Click to expand...

Do not mischaracterize my position as some push for violence or as hostility towards Jews. I honestly would prefer if all religions that do not strictly prohibit violence and nationalism were to peacefully and voluntarily vanish from common practice. My attitude is very negative towards any attachment to identity.

CJ 2.0 said:

Just so you know, the poster you are engaging has no qualms about musing how the world would be a better place if all the Jews were to drop off the face of the earth and stop being Jews (" Honestly, the world would be a better place if Jews converted to a cosmopolitan and pacifist religion or, for those non-religious Jews, simply shed their attachment to Jewish identity.") and has never, ever, acknowledged that the Jews have anythign legitimate they are fighting for or that Palestinian destructionist goals are even remotely a problem.

When a person tries to justify their own views by being reasonable and conciliatory and the other party just wants that person to end the essence of his or her very existence, I would suggested that any efforts at being concilliatory will only be used to your disadvantage.

And I say this not because it is entirely off topic but because it is a microcosm of the wider conflict here. There are very, very many who simply want Israel to go away and for the Jews to stop being Jews. A great deal of these exist within the Palestinian body politic and dictate Palestinian policy. Efforts at being appologetically conciliatory will do nothing to move these people to understanding, appreciating or sympathizing with your point of view.

it just puts the smell of blood in the air.

Click to expand...

Very well stated. Stated with eloquence and passion.

Demon of Light said:

That is actually not how I feel at any point. I do not see Muslims as a persecuted people, though the Palestinians are a somewhat different story, mainly because I see how most Arab countries have treated them in addition to how Israel has treated them.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected. Appreciate the clarification. When I read back my comment I was trying to be gracious but in retrospect it sounds a bit presumptious even patronizing. Sorry about that. It was meant in a positive way to say none of us likes sweeping negative generalizations made against us. I do find your clarification important though because for me its very difficult to know when talking to some supporters of Palestine or Muslim militancy whether its their anger generated by a fear they are disliked or hated or perceived as a negative people because they are Muslim, Palestinian, Syrian, Iranian, etc. It gets confusing.

I defer to the point you made and I find it interesting for you, its not an issue for one but can be with the other.

I personally believe the less emotion each of us has attached to these issues, the easier it becomes to discuss them. For me for example, its very difficult to discuss the holocaust with people who deny it. I have to fight not to loose my cool. I also find it difficult when people on either side of the debate advocate violence or wiping out of the other side. I too find it difficult to keep my emotions out of it at that point.

I also find it interesting that the Israelis on this site are far less emotional then I am discussing certain issues that if anything I would expect them to be more emotional about and me less.

I think sometimes we supporters of Israel or Palestinians but are neither muck up the issues with our emotions and must at times be extremely annoying to people who live with things people like me only discuss not live with. I am not sure I would be as gracious if I were them to people like me who mean well but often presume too many things. Oh well, at least I can acknowledge such weaknesses. Its why you will not see me talk to an Israeli the way I would a fellow jew in the disaspora or why I do not talk to Palestinians in a certain way. On certain issues I do not think I have the right to debate them ortell them anything-and should just shut up and listen. I might yack about economic or environmental policies with them, but I just would not presume to or talk to them about their opinions as to what it takes for them to feel safe. I can't explain it other then what I saw first hand makes me sometimes feel grateful as hell I was born in Canada but guilty I get to live such a wonderful free life that they can not at one level. I think its important to reveal such emotions because they make the debate far too complex and cloud it.

I must be honest with you. Sometimes I do not understand you and feel your emotions in certain comments are very intense and get the impression you have certain views that I believe are extremist against Israel.

I am trying to be frank and say all of us in this debate can get caught with our emotions and emotions at times are valuable things in helping us feel compassion for others but they can also be the fuel for violence, terrorism and war and I believe myself, religions whip up emotions to manipulate people.

I some times unfairly put Israelis on a pedestal because they are for me a symbol of the refusal of Jews to cease existing as a collective. It is perhaps quite unfair I do that to them, they did not ask to be my heroes or role models or live my dreams for me- they like Palestinians are simply humans, just ordinary shmoes trying to do what any of us would do-go about their business. I believe both Israelis and Palestinians are expected to carry the emotional burdens of far too many of us.

Mr. Invisible said:

The motion would not carry out in the UN and your utter ignorance shows here. The US would not allow it, nor would the EU.

Saying that the world is out to get Israel (or all Jews for that matter) is on par with saying that Jews control the world. Its nothing but a BS conspiracy theory.

Click to expand...

My utter ignorance, you don't want to campare IQ. business experience nor sucess, but leave that for another day.

You must not know that the general asembly gets to vote on a Palestinian state and the security council has no veto power.

Not sure what if any guidelines this section gas but if there is a moderator with a pulse they would properly admonish you for your personal comments and then your trash about some sort of Jewish conspiracy.

Now go find a rock to hide under.

You are unworthy of any further responses.

washunut said:

My utter ignorance, you don't want to campare IQ. business experience nor sucess, but leave that for another day.

You must not know that the general asembly gets to vote on a Palestinian state and the security council has no veto power.

Not sure what if any guidelines this section gas but if there is a moderator with a pulse they would properly admonish you for your personal comments and then your trash about some sort of Jewish conspiracy.

Now go find a rock to hide under.

You are unworthy of any further responses.

Click to expand...

i would have to agree with his observation
and i found no insult or other need for moderation within that post
two suggestions: (1) articulate your position and/or be articulate in your rebuttal. neither is found within your posts; and
(2) if you believe someone posts something worthy of moderator attention, press that triangle icon found within each post block
and yes, anticipating your reply, i do need to heed my own admonishments

justabubba said:

i would have to agree with his observation
and i found no insult or other need for moderation within that post
two suggestions: (1) articulate your position and/or be articulate in your rebuttal. neither is found within your posts; and
(2) if you believe someone posts something worthy of moderator attention, press that triangle icon found within each post block
and yes, anticipating your reply, i do need to heed my own admonishments

Click to expand...

Was my response written to you are just another act of trolling and baiting on your part. I think you lied(in my view) when you said there was no rebuttal in my response. Not sure if that is a function of your comprehension skills, I really can't say what I think of you and your response, will not take the bait.

You can help me out though. Is there some button on this site that would allow me never to see anything you post. I have no problem debating people on the other side of my thinking. After having been on this site for a while I have decided to stop communicating with those I feel are UNthinking, just cheap insults. I put you in that category.

washunut said:

My utter ignorance, you don't want to campare IQ. business experience nor sucess, but leave that for another day.

You must not know that the general asembly gets to vote on a Palestinian state and the security council has no veto power.

Not sure what if any guidelines this section gas but if there is a moderator with a pulse they would properly admonish you for your personal comments and then your trash about some sort of Jewish conspiracy.

Now go find a rock to hide under.

You are unworthy of any further responses.

Click to expand...

Sad. Because IQ and business experience has anything to do with what is currently at hand. (Maybe you should try paying attention to the conversation)

And yes, your saying that the UN would vote affirmative to get rid of Israel is nothing but foolish ignorant thinking.

Now go find a rock to hide under.

You are unworthy of any further responses.

Mr. Invisible said:

Sad. Because IQ and business experience has anything to do with what is currently at hand. (Maybe you should try paying attention to the conversation)

And yes, your saying that the UN would vote affirmative to get rid of Israel is nothing but foolish ignorant thinking.

Now go find a rock to hide under.

You are unworthy of any further responses.

Click to expand...

You are exactly the reason I am pro choice. Could not resist sorry to the other people of this site having to put up with this.

washunut said:

You are exactly the reason I am pro choice. Could not resist sorry to the other people of this site having to put up with this.

Click to expand...

And I apologize to other people on the site for having to put up with you.

Edit: Also, you are the reason I enjoy debating with people who are actually sane.