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PA pushing Quartet to recognize 1967 borders

Jordan had of course its serious split with the Palestinians after the Black Sabbath uprising.

You mean Black September, the Black Sabbath is when the British raided the Haganah arsenals in the Kibbutzs :2razz:
 
You stated something which was not true. You said the West Bank was part of Jordan when it was part of what the powers that were decided would be the Palestinian State. Jordan came in in 48 to take it and make it part of Jordan - nothing to do with helping the people there, it just wanted more land.

What I was trying to say was that in 1967 Jordan controlled this land. Had they negotiated a peace right after the war, then in all probability they would have gotten back everything but Jerusalem.

Then surely they should never have been built. The Palestinian people will need a viable State if they are to have a state, not just little islands dotted about. In the meantime they are suffering on a level which is not acceptable. See the videos Serenity left for an understanding of what they need to endure with this settlement lark. A settler talks there about his belief that eventually the Palestinians will be able to stand it no more and so will leave. However regardless of how horrendous the day to day life is made for the Palestinians not all of them will be able to afford to go. So unless they are all killed, I cannot see any way this will end in any way other than a one state solution - unless Israel starts dismantling it's settlements
.

But we have to deal with what is reality. So the question for people who really want peace is what to do based on this current reality. A one state solution is not realistic as you know. There will be settlements that have to be dismantled, including Hebron.




I don't think he was saying that. He feels the situation is impossible because of feelings of identity. His belief was that the one thing which could be done would be to start to treat the Palestinians with some human rights. Israel is a 'democracy' living within a people who it denys all huaman rights. It is an untenable situation.

Maybe seperation between peoples is more realistic than "peace". Sort of like the DMZ in Korea.

From what I have been reading and listening to this situation is either not known or not cared about by the ordinary Israeli civilian. This is why Yehuda Shaul is giving people guides of Hebron, letting them know what is happening and saying, 'You must speak up'.

Of course you have on the other side people who have this view


Gilad Sharon: The PA National Story Born in the Wake of Zionism - Politics & Gov't - Israel News - Israel National News

Tom Segev, the historian being interviewed I gave you the link to, does not believe peace is possible any more. He does not believe a two state solution is possible. What he does believe is possible is to give the Palestinians in the West Bank human rights, to start treating them with the same humanity that we would expect anyone else to be treated with. I think that would be a good start in ending the saga.

A way to acheve a two state solution is the only way Israel will any chance of some sort of peace. It will not be a perfect peace as there are extremists on both sides that will make trouble. Over time once a peace is put in place with a two state solution that will become the reality that people will accept.
 
From The Jerusalem Post:



PA pushing Quartet to recognize 1967 borders

This is another move by which the Palestinian Authority is seeking to achieve substantive gains outside the negotiating process. IMO, the Madrid Quartet should reaffirm its commitment to a negotiated agreement on the basis of UNSC Res. 242. At the same time, the Quartet should call on all parties to engage immediately and unconditionally in direct negotiations.

The former term would be consistent with a generally agreed international framework and the principle that the historic dispute would be resolved through negotiations. The latter would focus on restarting the negotiating process and it would avoid singling out the Palestinians, even as it is the Palestinians who have apparently adopted a strategic goal of seeking to pursue their aims outside of negotiations.

looks like you are advocating the Palestinians use the same approach israel did when it established its nation. peaceful negotiations


ooops! i am wrong

the israelis took the land they declared to be israel by force from those who had previously resided on it

but now israeli government supporters insist that Palestinians should not do the same. they must be required to negotiate a resolution with an intransigent israel which has no motivation to relinquish what it now controls. negotiations only serve to camouflage its intent to retain Palestinian lands. there is no intent to relinquish them; that is made obvious by insistence on continued settlement building

the consistent hypocrisy of those who defend israel's intransigence is telling
 
ooops! i am wrong
On this topic... always.

justabubba said:
the israelis took the land they declared to be israel by force from those who had previously resided on it
Untrue.
Jews maintained continuous presence on the land for several millenium. Settling it in significant number starting in the early 1800s, like Australia or the Western USA, but without violence - but legitimate acquisition. Often for astronomical prices, not beads.

2/3 of what became Israel (including the fully half that is the Negev) was State Land under the Ottomans and belonged to No Arab. And Jews owned or bought some of the rest.
They did acquire a lesser amount through War/s the Arabs started.

justabubba said:
the consistent hypocrisy of those who defend israel's intransigence is telling
You remain "consistent"- and wrong on this issue.

Also see:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/48220-myth-1-israel-stolen-land.html ..
which you Have without rebuttal on two different MB's...yet continue making charges.
 
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8 out of 10 might think its impossible but not because of the settlments. They believe that if Israel will withdraw the IDF from the west bank, the rockets which are dropping on Sderot will be falling on Kfar Saba, Petah Tiqua and even on Tel Aviv.

Basically you are saying that 8 out of ten people do not want peace because they can see no peace ...and as for you attempt to justify the settlements...chicken and egg. What came first, settlements of rockets? Have you ever for even ten minutes thought about putting yourself in the others shoes.



Its the mistrust in Palestinians who repaid the Oslo accords with blowing up busses in the heart of tel aviv and jerusalem, and who repaid Barak's intesive negotiations for a permanent solution with the second intifada, and who repaid the dissengagment from the west bank with an increase of rocket fire on the the surrounding Israeli towns and villages who make the ordinary Israeli doubt a peace treaty is impossible.
Repaid? repaid? You don't think maybe you owed them something? Well you will be pleased to know that the Palestinians are working towards getting the Oslo ripped up. The have also had a day or rage urging their leaders to stop being in the huff with each other. This was held in both Gaza and the West bank. Hamas roughed up it's protesters but they moved somewhere else and carried on ....and I believe there are talks on meeting and trying to sort things out. You never know what tomorrow might bring ;)

Another reason for mistrust can be seen in the latest attack on Itamar, the number of checkpoints was decreased dramatically over the past years, the result of this decrease is 4 months old baby being slaughtered with a knife, and at least 3 more ambushes which I remember over the past year.

That was one horrible crime. One. I believe it resulted in several attacks on Palestinian homes. Not only that 400 more homes are to be built as a collective punishment for the Palestinians.


What is impossible is your idea of one state, you cannot take two nations,
You have to have the possibility of a state. All you settlements make such a thing impossible. I am beginning to wonder if the continued talks is just so people will not start looking at the reality of the situation on the ground. It is though getting more and more talked about.

who both want independence and make them live together, this will result in civil war

Why on earth should that happen. Just give the Palestinians citizenship, give them equal rights, equal opportunity to good employment, housing and schooling and I am quite sure they will get along just fine. Plenty of countries are able to get on with people who do not come from their genetic pool - oh but wait a minute you do, it is just the Palestinians stayed. ;)



You also derived checkpoints from settlements, checkpoints, just like the wall, are driven from terror, nothing else, if there was no terror there were no checkpoints, now you may suggest that terror derives from settlements but if you do and you suggest that checkpoints are driven from settlments this will ultimatly mean that you believe using terrorisem against the settlers is just wouldn't it?

Yes, I heard the Hebron tape, I know all Palestinians are terrorists and all Israelis saints.:doh
 
By the way, Thai workers in Itamar have been arrested. A Thai man worked for the Fogel family , the family owed him a large sum of money.

Israeli authorities refused to comment but they arrested Thai workers for questioning about the murders.


'Itamar killings carried out by foreign worker'
 
By the way, Thai workers in Itamar have been arrested. A Thai man worked for the Fogel family , the family owed him a large sum of money.

Israeli authorities refused to comment but they arrested Thai workers for questioning about the murders.


'Itamar killings carried out by foreign worker'

A number of news Web sites that are affiliated with the Palestinian Authority claimed on Monday that the Itamar killings were committed by a foreign worker who was employed in the settlement.

PA-controlled media outlets also highlighted the story and continued to cast doubt about Israeli claims that Palestinians were behind the killings.

PA journalism is responsible for a great part of the incitement that led to that murder. It's only natural they would be trying to bury this act of barbarism under false claims that do not associate it with Palestinian individuals. And the murderers have entered through the fence from a nearby West Bank Palestinian village, Thai workers don't need to cut a fence and enter from a Palestinian village, they work in the settlement. so it's not merely pathetic and appalling lies but an insult to the intelligence of man. Their cover-up attempts of the murder are disgusting and repulsive, just as disgusting as the knowledge that a lot of their readers buy into their lies.
 
PA journalism is responsible for a great part of the incitement that led to that murder. It's only natural they would be trying to bury this act of barbarism under false claims that do not associate it with Palestinian individuals. And the murderers have entered through the fence from a nearby West Bank Palestinian village, Thai workers don't need to cut a fence and enter from a Palestinian village, they work in the settlement. so it's not merely pathetic and appalling lies but an insult to the intelligence of man. Their cover-up attempts of the murder are disgusting and repulsive, just as disgusting as the knowledge that a lot of their readers buy into their lies.

Well we will need to wait and see. Apparently The New York Times has also reported this as recounted here

even if the motives of the killer seem obvious to everyone, journalists covering the incident must be reminded there is no hard evidence that a Palestinian terrorist committed the crime. No viable armed faction has taken credit, and Israeli police are even treating Thai workers as suspects. Itamar is heavily guarded, surrounded by an electrified fence, and monitored 24/7 by a sophisticated system of video surveillance. Yet there is no video of the killer. Like it or not, until the identity of the killer is confirmed, the murder can only be described by journalists as an “alleged terror attack.” Legitimate outrage is no excuse to flout the basics of journalism 101.

That said, Blumenthal points out that there has been considerable violence directed at nearby Palestinians-- little of which has attracted the same type of coverage we're seeing now:

FAIR Blog » Blog Archive » Assigning Blame for West Bank Killings

My hair was standing on end when I saw Interior Minister Eli Yishai thinks the 400 houses is a very poor punishement and wants rather 1000 for every person killed. That's be 5000 in all.

Yishai: Israel must build 1,000 new units in settlements for every person murdered - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

When will this all end?
 
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Well we will need to wait and see.

The autocracy called the PA has never earned its right to make us wait and see with its 'newspapers' claims.
If Iran or Libya or Syria or Saudi government-affailated newspapers would have made that statement we would be taking them with the same amount of seriousness.

Apparently The New York Times has also reported this as recounted here

The blog includes no links to a NYT report as far as I've seen, and googling the passage leads to various anti-Israeli hate-sites. Unless you provide a direct link to the new york times report it is as if you have provided nothing.
The Thai workers don't need to cut a fence and enter from a Palestinian village, it is a poor attempt to cover-up the murderers' identity by the people who support those murders.

My hair was standing on end when I saw Interior Minister Eli Yishai thinks the 400 houses is a very poor punishement and wants rather 1000 for every person killed. That's be 5000 in all.

My hair is standing on end from the feeling of remorse from people who care more about a bunch of houses built in existing settlements when children have had their throat cut and body stabbed as they were sleeping.
 
PA journalism is responsible for a great part of the incitement that led to that murder. It's only natural they would be trying to bury this act of barbarism under false claims that do not associate it with Palestinian individuals. And the murderers have entered through the fence from a nearby West Bank Palestinian village, Thai workers don't need to cut a fence and enter from a Palestinian village, they work in the settlement. so it's not merely pathetic and appalling lies but an insult to the intelligence of man. Their cover-up attempts of the murder are disgusting and repulsive, just as disgusting as the knowledge that a lot of their readers buy into their lies.

Most news outlets have reported that the terrorist "jumped over the fense". There have been no pictures of the supposedly "cut" fense.
Itamar massacre: Army blamed for breach - Israel News, Ynetnews

What you're saying is that anything that the PA says is automatically classified as false but when the Israeli authorities say something is considered to be the absolute truth.

Why did the Israelis arrest Thai workers then ? And why didn't the Israeli authorities deny this report but instead refused comment ?

The answer is easy, even the Israeli government is still investigating and the criminal has not been caught yet.

edit: from the Ynet report:

"The area has many animals and shrubs that come in contact with the fence," Yisraeli explained. "In this case the fence wasn't cut, but skipped over. That is why the patrolman scanned the site and moved on after deducing there was a false alarm."

Notice that they do not mention at what time an alert was heard, nor how many false alerts had been heard that night.
 
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The blog includes no links to a NYT report as far as I've seen, and googling the passage leads to various anti-Israeli hate-sites.

This is certainly not surprising, all things considered.




My hair is standing on end from the feeling of remorse from people who care more about a bunch of houses built in existing settlements when children have had their throat cut and body stabbed as they were sleeping.

and neither is this. The initial statements offered only for appearance sake soon gave way to the real agenda.
 
The autocracy called the PA has never earned its right to make us wait and see with its 'newspapers' claims.
your hate is noted


The blog includes no links to a NYT report as far as I've seen, and googling the passage leads to various anti-Israeli hate-sites. Unless you provide a direct link to the new york times report it is as if you have provided nothing.
Yes, my mistake. I have checked with the NY Times and not been able to find it. It would though make sense that those people would also be interviewed.

The Thai workers don't need to cut a fence and enter from a Palestinian village, it is a poor attempt to cover-up the murderers' identity by the people who support those murders.

Have you never noticed Apocalypse that people who commit crimes have a tendency to try and put people off the scent. What better way than to cut the fence and have you believing that that alone makes them innocent.



My hair is standing on end from the feeling of remorse from people who care more about a bunch of houses built in existing settlements when children have had their throat cut and body stabbed as they were sleeping.

Brutal murders have been committed on an illegal settlement and your government, who claims to want peace, wishes to exploit these murders by building up to 5,000 more illegal buildings as a collective punishment. If I remember correctly the family itself has been disgusted at the way this, as yet unsolved crime, has been used for political gain.
 
Now notice this blog. It talks about 2 terrorists who jumped the fens and waited inside the settlement for 2-3 hours before breaking into the house.

Shabbat Shalom - the view from my veranda: Terror in Itamar

First of all, terrorists who infiltrate into a setllement would not wait for 2-3 hours in a high security zone.

Second, the Fogel Family's house wasn't broken into but the murderer walked in through an unlocked door. Only someone who knew that they slept while leaving a door unlocked would have directly used that door, in other words someone who knew the family and their habits. A palestinian living outside of the settlement wouldn't have known.

edit: by the way, apart from 3 photos that have been distributed by AFP/Getty, there have been no witnesses of celebrations in Gaza. The photos of the photographer are most probaly fake. A complaint has been filed against the photographer who claims that the he had run into that one man in the steet sponaniously distributing sweets, without knowing what had happened exactly. He also claims that the blurry part of the banner behind one of the photos is a drop of water on his lens. It was not raining that day. An investigation is nderway.
 
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your hate is noted


Yes, my mistake. I have checked with the NY Times and not been able to find it. It would though make sense that those people would also be interviewed.



Have you never noticed Apocalypse that people who commit crimes have a tendency to try and put people off the scent. What better way than to cut the fence and have you believing that that alone makes them innocent.





Brutal murders have been committed on an illegal settlement and your government, who claims to want peace, wishes to exploit these murders by building up to 5,000 more illegal buildings as a collective punishment. If I remember correctly the family itself has been disgusted at the way this, as yet unsolved crime, has been used for political gain.


Alexa, the fence had not been cut but jumped over. See my post above.
 
You mean Black September, the Black Sabbath is when the British raided the Haganah arsenals in the Kibbutzs :2razz:


Oy gevalt. I just read that back. Mea Culpa.
 
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your hate is noted

And your post is reported. I have a lot to say about your certain feelings but I do not do so knowing it is a vioaltion of forum's rules. Yet you don't seem to have a problem with that.

Yes, my mistake. I have checked with the NY Times and not been able to find it. It would though make sense that those people would also be interviewed.

Uh-huh, 'mistake'. Right.

Have you never noticed Apocalypse that people who commit crimes have a tendency to try and put people off the scent. What better way than to cut the fence and have you believing that that alone makes them innocent.

That's an extremely ridiculous thought. But not even half as ridiculous as taking to that belief instead of admitting that Palestinian terrorists are behind this barbaric act as they were behind many other brutal terrorist attacks against Jewish civilians in the past.

Brutal murders have been committed on an illegal settlement and your government, who claims to want peace, wishes to exploit these murders by building up to 5,000 more illegal buildings as a collective punishment. If I remember correctly the family itself has been disgusted at the way this, as yet unsolved crime, has been used for political gain.

Houses are always being built, the natural growth I remind you has been unfrozen a long time ago, he can build those houses for whatever reason he wants to it'd be the same.
And collective punishement? I do not agree with Eli Yishay's proposal, but from there to collective punishment there's a long road. He did it to make a statement against the terrorists, their actions will not change anything and would further motivate more building of houses. Eli Yishay is far from being a person of morality, but I'm not disgusted with that as say with people who focus on the building of freaking houses instead of the barbaric murder of innocent civilians. Those are the people I get a feeling of remorse from.
 
That's an extremely ridiculous thought. But not even half as ridiculous as taking to that belief instead of admitting that Palestinian terrorists are behind this barbaric act as they were behind many other brutal terrorist attacks against Jewish civilians in the past.

Aren't you the one who always insists that a person is innocent until proven guilty ?

Why are you being so quick to accuse the Palestinians before the end of the investigation ?

Why are you ignoring my posts that speak of summoning up Thai workers or the fact that palestinians couldn't have known the the family slept without locking the door, and that it is virtually impossible for a person from the other side of the fence to jump over it and wait for a few hours until the faily slept and then to go directly to that particular house knowing that the door was unlocked ?
 
And your post is reported. I have a lot to say about your certain feelings but I do not do so knowing it is a vioaltion of forum's rules. Yet you don't seem to have a problem with that.
I must admit I did not realise it was against forum rules to state what you had observed.

Uh-huh, 'mistake'. Right.
A mistake not to ckeck but I did not claim to have checked. Here is what I wrote
Well we will need to wait and see. Apparently The New York Times has also reported this as recounted here


That's an extremely ridiculous thought.

I do not believe it is a ridculous thought at all. As I said criminals generally try to put the police off the trail. Given the significance of the cut wire, that would be a sensible thing to do.
But not even half as ridiculous as taking to that belief instead of admitting that Palestinian terrorists are behind this barbaric act as they were behind many other brutal terrorist attacks against Jewish civilians in the past.

Has someone been charged? Is there irrifutable evidence? I don't think so because I have been looking. Until someone is charged, I do not know who has been charged and to be frank, neither do you.

Houses are always being built, the natural growth I remind you has been unfrozen a long time ago, he can build those houses for whatever reason he wants to it'd be the same.
And collective punishement? I do not agree with Eli Yishay's proposal, but from there to collective punishment there's a long road. He did it to make a statement against the terrorists, their actions will not change anything and would further motivate more building of houses. Eli Yishay is far from being a person of morality, but I'm not disgusted with that as say with people who focus on the building of freaking houses instead of the barbaric murder of innocent civilians. Those are the people I get a feeling of remorse from.

These houses are illegal. I understood the settlers were going to be removed anyway. The announcements of new building has been put forward as reprisal for this murder. How can you see that as anything other than collective punishment.

Look how Yossi Gurvitz describes it

The leaders of the settlers went into a seizure, challenging each other to be more ruthless (Hebrew). The prize goes, as usual, to the representative of Kahane and Rabbi Wolfa in the Knesset, Michael Ben Ari: “I call upon the government to carry out a ‘price tag’ [euphemism for pogrom – YG] and expel the residents of the village from which the murderers emerged, and to demolish the village and build in its place apartments for young couples of army veterans.” In short, Ben Ari wants a Lidice-like collective punishment. MK Zevulun Orlev, supposedly more moderate then Ben Ari, blamed the government for the massacre – the usual tactic of the settlers, from the 1970s onwards – and also demanded a ‘price tag’ operation.

The government rushed last night, several hours after the end of the Sabbath, to accept those settler demands, and announced it will build 500 new housing units in the settlements. This wasn’t enough for Interior Minister Eli Yishai, who demanded the price (the price tag?) to be “a thousand apartments per child.”

The Itamar murders and after | Jews for Justice for Palestinians
 
Perhaps if your habit were to check out legitimate news sites instead of relying on various anti-Israel propaganda sites like you do, this would not have been an issue.

i am certain that you would want everyone to rely on pro-israeli news sites, just as you do
that would well serve your agenda
 
i am certain that you would want everyone to rely on pro-israeli news sites, just as you do
that would well serve your agenda

No, I just wish people would use legitimate news sources instead of hate sites.
 
Aren't you the one who always insists that a person is innocent until proven guilty ?

Why are you being so quick to accuse the Palestinians before the end of the investigation ?

Why are you ignoring my posts that speak of summoning up Thai workers or the fact that palestinians couldn't have known the the family slept without locking the door, and that it is virtually impossible for a person from the other side of the fence to jump over it and wait for a few hours until the faily slept and then to go directly to that particular house knowing that the door was unlocked ?

Fatah has already taken 'credit' for the slaughter of the Fogel family and the Palestinians, on hearing the news, celebrated by dancing in the streets and handing out candy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msXNcJA76_8&feature=player_embedded
 
What type of sick excuse for human beings would celebrate the murder of children.

Those who have been indoctrinated from the time they were born into a cult of genocidal ethnic hatred.

How on earth can people on this site justify such actions?

Because A well-oiled propaganda machine from those engaged in the cult of genocidal hatred indoctrinating delusional westerners into supporting them.


I guess thousands of years of bigorty trump all else.

Much of the techniques they employ are of much more recent origin, as their close association with the National Socialists in WW2 taught them about effective propaganda.
 
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