• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What does the US get from its alliance with Israel?

I've asked you in the same comment a question you have refused to answer.
What are the positions you are trying to attribute to the Likud or to Netanyahu?

1) that doesn't answer my question

2) the ones in the likud platform i cited earlier



What issues have he never mentioned?
It seems like he's dealt with all of them.

The ones I cited earlier and you directly responded to?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...et-its-alliance-israel-12.html#post1059237038
 
how would any of the above forfeit basic huiman rights?

You mean like the right of a woman to live free of the threat of death or genital mutilation from men who see them as chattal or the right s of gay people to live free ofthe threat of torture? I support those rights.

In case you were referring to the rights of Jewish people to have self determination and to be free of the terrorism spawned by those whose very raison d'etre is to kill them, I support that too.
 
You mean like the right of a woman to live free of the threat of death or genital mutilation from men who see them as chattal or the right s of gay people to live free ofthe threat of torture? I support those rights.

In case you were referring to the rights of Jewish people to have self determination and to be free of the terrorism spawned by those whose very raison d'etre is to kill them, I support that too.

I was actually actually speaking of the existence of basic rights for Palistinians, regardless of what crimes individuals from the population might be guilty of.

But if you feel better ignoring my point, I'm ok with that too


PS and you're still ignoring that all Palestinians are not members of Hamas
 
I was actually actually speaking of the existence of basic rights for Palistinians, regardless of what crimes individuals from the population might be guilty of.

But if you feel better ignoring my point, I'm ok with that too


PS and you're still ignoring that all Palestinians are not members of Hamas

Not to mention those that fought against them and got nothing in return but a settlement expansion
 
1)you claimed settlement expansion was limited to natural growth, and I highlighted how the term "natural growth" was misleading

I cannot possibly claim that the settlement expansion is limited to natural growth, since the two terms are rejecting each other, one is the expansion of settlements' land and the other is the internal growth of existing settlements.
What I did do is to refer to the Israeli government settlements policy as its called, which is the allowing of natural growth.
Your entire basis for the claim that the term is misleading is an opinion piece and not a factual one, thus I'm afraid that you have highlighted nothing.

2) If you think the claims are false, then please show some proof to support that


3) the article offers plenty of quotations and cites numerous reports on the matter. But if you rather ignore that, and just dismiss it out of hand, I'll take that for what it's worth

It's bull, if Givat Ha'eytam is in Efrat's municipality region then building there is indeed natural growth and not expansion, thus the term is indeed correct.

1) Israel has clear control of the area

Active control, sure, but it didn't "seize control of extensive stretches of West Bank land in favor of the settlements" as you have claimed.
You were talking about property control here, not active control.

2) it has specific policy to promote the settlements

The natural growth policy does not "promote the settlements", it maintains the status quo until negotiations are bearing fruit.


Another opinion piece, how about you'd start referring to actual articles of facts and not to what some person decides to write in his opinion piece.

the one clearly outlined in the post you're responding to? But for further details: http://www.yesh-din.org/userfiles/file/Reports-English/BackyardProceedingsfullreportEng.pdf

Well I don't see the problem here. If the settler carries an Israeli citizenship he is an Israeli citizen, so he would be judged by Israeli law. Not Israel's fault that the Palestinians are living under an autocracy.

1) empty dismissals are not very convincing

They are extremely more convincing than the empty references to empty propaganda spread by others.

2) <<<Whereas the annual average of 770 Israelis settled in the territories from 1967 to 1977, that average increased under Likud to 5960 annually from1978 to 1987. The location of settlements also changed: now they were often deliberately planned to abut Arab communities and to take over their lands, constituting a visible threat designed from Ariel Sharon's point of view to intimidate Arabs and encourage them to leave>>>

Palistine and the Arab/Israeli conflict - page 413-414

Charles D Smith

His claims on what Sharon has had in his intentions are irrelavent to Sharon's intentions.
Unless he has some evidence where Sharon is claiming this and that were his intentions he is simply serving his own political agenda by spreading baseless propaganda. Anyone can do that.

While I generally agree, one can't ignore the fact that the west bank was largely peaceful, prior to the expansion of settlements under Begin, and the settlements are clearly an aggressive act, by the Israeli state, against the Palestinian population.

The West Bank was never peaceful, but I don't even plan on getting into that as that is irrelevant to the fact that the terror threat exists and thus so do the checkpoints. Once more, unless you believe that the right to life of Israeli Jews are to be forsaken for the freedom of movement of Palestinians from the West Bank you would not argue for the dismantling of the checkpoints.
If there's something one absolutely cannot ignore it is the fact that the security fence and the checkpoints have made the most drastic change in countering Palestinian terrorism.

I'm not following. Clearly if the settlements could divide the territory in a manner that political cohesiveness is an impossibility and where it lacks the basic resources to support a population, then it would not be a viable state

Israel includes Arab villages within it, the Palestinian state can include Jewish towns within it. Don't see where's the problem.

from the Likud charter: <<<The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting. >>>

Netanyahu has addressed this and said that the Jewish settlements are to grow internally and are not to grow externally (expand).
So there you go, your confusion solved.
 
Last edited:
Not to mention those that fought against them and got nothing in return but a settlement expansion

Who fought against them? Fatah? You think they did it out of ideology or because they were the ones being attacked and because they were losing Gaza to another party?

Nevertheless they didn't get settlement expansion, that's bull and the settlements have not expanded for years.

Anyway regardless of the falsehood you've promoted above you've yet to address my first post as you said you would, I'm still waiting Dave.
 
Last edited:
I was actually actually speaking of the existence of basic rights for Palistinians, regardless of what crimes individuals from the population might be guilty of.

But if you feel better ignoring my point, I'm ok with that too


PS and you're still ignoring that all Palestinians are not members of Hamas

Murdering Jews is not a right.

As far as you false claim is concerned, I already addressed that in post #74.

What has not occured is your acknowledgement of any responsibility on the part of these Arabs for electing a genocidal terrorist organization to represent them. Good grief, if Mississippi or South Carolina were to elect an organization advocating the genocide of African Americans, would you be so supportive?
 
Murdering Jews is not a right.

what are you even speaking of? No one claimed the above


As far as you false claim is concerned, I already addressed that in post #74.

and you continue to ignore the issues I raised with your reasoning


What has not occured is your acknowledgement of any responsibility on the part of these Arabs for electing a genocidal terrorist organization to represent them. Good grief, if Mississippi or South Carolina were to elect an organization advocating the genocide of African Americans, would you be so supportive?

Again, no one is supporting Hamas, or their aims towards Israel. But we both know you'll continue to ignore this
 
what are you even speaking of? No one claimed the above

The majority of Palestinians voted for those with such an agenda.



and you continue to ignore the issues I raised with your reasoning

You have brought forth no valid issues. You have just indulged in some banalities in regards to the obvious regarding the fact that not every Palestinian Arab supports Hamas.



Again, no one is supporting Hamas, or their aims towards Israel. But we both know you'll continue to ignore this

Actually, the majority of those to whom you are offering your unquestioning support voted them into power. The problem here is that you attack Israel, but you are unwilling to hold the Arabs to even the most minimal standards of human decency.
 
Well the topic of this thread is supposed to be the alliance between the US and Israel and its reasons if I get it right.
I'll be waiting for Dave to address my post regarding the OP.
 
Actually, the majority of those to whom you are offering your unquestioning support voted them into power.
the majority? the 700,000 children of Gaza did not vote them into power.

those children deserve the basics that all children in the world should have. things that so many other people take for granted like food, clean water, healthcare and safe places to play and learn. i support and defend their basic human rights and am criticial for the role that Hamas and Israel play in abusing those rights.
 
In case you were referring to the rights of Jewish people to have self determination....
this should go without saying but i absolutely support Israels right to self determination.

having said that, self-determination does not allow Israel the right to continually impose their one sided vision of government on others who do not share that vision. it does not allow Israel the right to take land by brutal force, just because they desire that land, and are self-determined to have it. it does not allow Israel the freedom to acquire it by force just because they have some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world at its disposal and are happy to use it without mercy. it does not allow Israel the right to establish a government that treats citizens unequally, even if that is their self-determined desire.

and it most definitely does not allow Israel the right to ignore the self-determination rights of other people.
 
I think what America "gets" is the promotion of a secular democracy with similar values to America in a region that has many theocracies and a terrible human rights record. Israel is a democracy that is governed by a secular government. They basically share common American values, and many of Israel's enemies support the enemies of America (terrorists and extremists).
 
The majority of Palestinians voted for those with such an agenda..

actually they did not. They received somewhere around 44% of the vote





You have brought forth no valid issues. You have just indulged in some banalities in regards to the obvious regarding the fact that not every Palestinian Arab supports Hamas.

Nope, I keep pointing out they won a majority in the legislature and that one can support the basic rights of the Palestinians, without supporting Hamas. But we know you'll continue to ignore this and claim anyone who disagrees with you is a terrorist supporter








Actually, the majority of those to whom you are offering your unquestioning support voted them into power. The problem here is that you attack Israel, but you are unwilling to hold the Arabs to even the most minimal standards of human decency.

1) I don't offer the Palestinians unquestioning support. In fact, near the beginning of the discussion, it was *YOU* who was advocating unquestioning support for Israel. Because, in your eyes, not offering unquestioning support was akin to supporting terrorists

2) I attack Israel policy. This isn't the same as attacking Israel

3) You clearly know nothing of my views regarding the Arab states, because I'm extremely critical of them. But regardless of that, the discussion isn't about me, so I am unsure why you feel the need to continue to focus on completely irrelevant points, as a means to making personal attacks against those that disagree with you
 
Last edited:
I cannot possibly claim that the settlement expansion is limited to natural growth, since the two terms are rejecting each other, one is the expansion of settlements' land and the other is the internal growth of existing settlements.
What I did do is to refer to the Israeli government settlements policy as its called, which is the allowing of natural growth.
Your entire basis for the claim that the term is misleading is an opinion piece and not a factual one, thus I'm afraid that you have highlighted nothing.

1)and as the article you refuse to address clearly states, "natural growth" is a problematic and misleading term

2) irrelevant dismissals don't amount to much

3) if you have any issues with the article you will need to actually address it. Simple hand waving doesn't accomplish that



It's bull, if Givat Ha'eytam is in Efrat's municipality region then building there is indeed natural growth and not expansion, thus the term is indeed correct.

again, from the article: <<<Last February, Israel declared the expanse of land on which Givat Ha’eytam sits to be “state land” after rejecting Palestinian ownership claims to it as unsubstantiated. Only a small section, whose ownership by Palestinians Israel acknowledged, was exempt. Mayor Oded Revivi told the Forward that applications to develop the area as part of Efrat are currently “waiting on the desks” of Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak.

This hill epitomizes the ambiguity of Netanyahu’s stance on settlements that has even America’s peace envoy, George Mitchell, confused. When it comes to natural growth “there are almost as many definitions as there are people speaking,” Mitchell said at a press briefing June 16.

Netanyahu’s office refuses to clarify whether natural growth, as Israel understands the term, would involve expanding settlements beyond the perimeters of their already built-up environments — thereby substantially changing the reality on the ground, with Jewish settlements covering a much wider area — or whether natural growth just involves construction within the perimeters of already built-up areas.>>>

<<<Efrat is not alone among the 120 West Bank settlements in having jurisdiction over land well beyond its built-up sector. Among the most generously endowed settlements is Kibbutz Mitzpe Shalem, close to the Dead Sea. The settlement, with a population of just 200, offers housing to nonmembers of the kibbutz and has outlying jurisdiction of some 13.6 square miles — a spread of land equal to that of the central Israeli city of Petah Tikvah which has a population of 189,000.>>>

Active control, sure, but it didn't "seize control of extensive stretches of West Bank land in favor of the settlements" as you have claimed.
You were talking about property control here, not active control.

again, I'm not following: <<<Using a complex legal-bureaucratic mechanism, Israel took control of some 50 percent of the land of the West Bank, primarily for establishment of the settlements and preparation of land reserves for their expansion. The main means used for this purpose is declaring and recording the land as “state land.” This procedure, which began in 1979, is based on the manipulative application of the Ottoman Land Law of 1858, which was in force on the eve of the occupation. The mechanism resulted in the declaration, mostly between 1979-1992, of 913,000 dunams as state land, which comprise 16 percent of the West Bank. The other methods used, each based on a different legal basis, were requisition for “military needs,” declaration of land as “abandoned property,” and expropriation of land for “public needs.” In addition, Israel has aided citizens in purchasing land on the “open market.” Simultaneously, in many cases, settlers independently seized control of private Palestinian land, while Israeli officials failed in almost all cases to enforce the law and return the land to its lawful owners. >>>

B'Tselem - Land Expropriation and Settlements - Taking Control of the Land





The natural growth policy does not "promote the settlements", it maintains the status quo until negotiations are bearing fruit.

What are you talking about? The actions taken to promote the settlements are more commonly financial incentives: <<<The Israeli governments have implemented a consistent and systematic policy intended to encourage Jewish citizens to migrate to the West Bank. One of the tools used to this end is to grant financial benefits and incentives to citizens - both directly and through the Jewish local authorities. The purpose of this support is to raise the standard of living of these citizens and to encourage migration to the West Bank.

Most of the settlements in the West Bank are defined as national priority areas (A class or B class). Accordingly, the settlers and other Israeli citizens working or investing in the settlements are entitled to significant financial benefits. These benefits are provided by eight government ministries: the Ministry of Construction and Housing (reduction of price of the land and generous loans for the purchase of apartments, part of which is converted to a grant); the Israel Lands Administration (significant price reductions in leasing land); the Ministry of Education (Compulsory Education Law from Age Three, the long school day, extension of the school year, incentives for teachers, and subsidized transportation to school); the ministries of industry and trade, tourism, and agriculture (grants for investors, development of infrastructure for industrial zones, indemnification for loss of income resulting from custom duties imposed by countries of the European Union); the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs (incentives for social workers); and the Ministry of Finance (reductions in income tax for individuals and companies). In 2003, the Ministry of Finance cancelled the income tax reduction that residents of settlements previously received. >>>

B'Tselem - Encouragement of migration to the settlements



Another opinion piece, how about you'd start referring to actual articles of facts and not to what some person decides to write in his opinion piece.

again, more irrelevant dismissals. if you are saying that financial incentives were not increased to the settlements, or that they don't receive finacical incentives from the government, you will need to show that. Otherwise you have some pointless hand waiving



[/QUOTE]Well I don't see the problem here. If the settler carries an Israeli citizenship he is an Israeli citizen, so he would be judged by Israeli law. Not Israel's fault that the Palestinians are living under an autocracy.[/QUOTE]

1) extending administrative law to foreign territories is seen as effectively annexing such territory. This is why the security council ruled against both the "Jerusalem law" and the "Golan heights law"

ODS HOME PAGE

The Avalon Project : United Nations Security Council Resolution 497

2) the Palestinians are under the military administration of the IDF. The settlers do not live under the same system: <<<The Emergency Regulations (Offenses in the Occupied Territories - Jurisdiction and Legal Assistance), 5727-1967, enacted by the Minister of Defense in July 1967, provided that Israeli civilians who committed offenses in the Occupied Territories were to be tried in Israeli civil courts>>>

B'Tselem - Settler Violence

I'll address the rest in a separate post
 
Last edited:
actually they did not. They received somewhere around 44% of the vote







Nope, I keep pointing out they won a majority in the legislature and that one can support the basic rights of the Palestinians, without supporting Hamas. But we know you'll continue to ignore this and claim anyone who disagrees with you is a terrorist supporter










1) I don't offer the Palestinians unquestioning support. In fact, near the beginning of the discussion, it was *YOU* who was advocating unquestioning support for Israel. Because, in your eyes, not offering unquestioning support was akin to supporting terrorists

2) I attack Israel policy. This isn't the same as attacking Israel

3) You clearly know nothing of my views regarding the Arab states, because I'm extremely critical of them. But regardless of that, the discussion isn't about me, so I am unsure why you feel the need to continue to focus on completely irrelevant points, as a means to making personal attacks against those that disagree with you

You talk about "Personal attacks" and knowing nothing about your views, yet you started up in post 63 with some complete garbage about me. Are you a sock puppet?

You talk about "basic rights" without articulating what those "Basic rights" are.

You do not acknowledge the extreme human rights violations so endemic to Palestinian society, whether it is abuse of children, abuse of women or abuse of gay people, and you do not acknowedge the genocidal hatred that drives so many of them.

You do not admit the extent to which Palestinians support terrorism.

You claim to attack only Israel policy, yet this thread is not about any Israel policy, but is simply a hit piece on Israel, and you are not talking about Israel policy in it.
 
You talk about "Personal attacks" and knowing nothing about your views, yet you started up in post 63 with some complete garbage about me. Are you a sock puppet?

so your refutation to a claim of personal attacks is to engage in even more irrelevant personal attacks? Mind boggling

You talk about "basic rights" without articulating what those "Basic rights" are.

basic human rights

You do not acknowledge the extreme human rights violations so endemic to Palestinian society, whether it is abuse of children, abuse of women or abuse of gay people, and you do not acknowedge the genocidal hatred that drives so many of them.

1) the discussion isn't about me

2) again, I am extremely critical of the Arab states, including the PLO, PNA, and Hamas. In fact, I have been critical of Hamas in this very thread. So why not butt-waffle yourself back to the beginning and review the material in question, and save both of us from these embarrassing episodes, that add absolutely nothing to the discussion

3) such points seem irrelevant to the discussion, unless your appealing to some notion that individuals acting this way forfeit an entire peoples basic rights. Which is a premise I flatly reject as absurd



You claim to attack only Israel policy, yet this thread is not about any Israel policy, but is simply a hit piece on Israel, and you are not talking about Israel policy in it.

1) again, this thread isn't about me

2) indeed I have discussed Israeli policy here, on numerous occasions

3) why should anyone care what you think of this thread? If you don't like it then don't participate in it
 
Last edited:
One cannot dehumanize that which is not human.
When committing the acts of terrorism one engages in the murder of innocents for the purpose of acheiving political goals and causes. The more important part here; an individual engages in the deliberate killing (murder) of innocent human beings (civilians from a specific nationality). For a person to commit the act of murder, of innocents who have done nothing to him but to be born to a nation he hates, he has to lack in humanity. Thus inhuman.

Hence and therefore, in practice, one cannot dehumanize he who engages in murder, and thus no one is dehumanizing terrorists. There are however those who try to humanize the terrorists, and they clearly operate for ill and immoral intentions.

There is nothing ill or immoral about insisting that human beings should be regarded as human beings. If you do not consider them human then there is no reason to treat them with humanity. You are also more likely to become just like them if you will not even consider them human and thus deserving of empathy.

What happens here is that people have simply decided to support something. In this case, "Palestinians". When faced with the reality of what they are suporting, they deal with the cognitive dissonance by imagining an alternate reality that allows their support to continue. They don't really care about the beliefs in question, and whether these beliefs are held by many or by few, only that they need to show their support.

Yeah, I can't possibly have purely moral reasons for objecting to Apocalypse dehumanizing people. :roll:

In a world where Palestinians start training their children from the time of birth in the glories of killing Jews, they pretend Palestinians are liberals. If Mein Kampf is a best seller, so what? When Palestinians vote for a terrorist organization to lead them, just come up with a new excuse - -do anything to create the false impression that these MAINSTREAM Palestinian attitudes are just fine and dandy, while attacking anybody who actually rejects these attitudes.

In a world where questions such as "What does the U.S. get in its aliance with Israel" are considered perfectly legitimate, questioniong "who are these Palestinians" are ignored. When are people ever going to take a cold, hard look at who they are supporting here, anyway?

Thank you for demonstrating that you were not just dehumanizing the Palestinian leadership, but instead dehumanizing Palestinians in general.
 
There is nothing ill or immoral about insisting that human beings should be regarded as human beings.

Those who try to humanize the terrorists do that out of the belief that their actions, that the murder of innocents due to their nationality, are not inhuman, and thus are motivated by ill and immoral intentions.
They seek to promote such actions and give them legitimization due to their support of the same actions, so they humanize the terrorists.

Yeah, I can't possibly have purely moral reasons for objecting to Apocalypse dehumanizing people.

You cannot dehumanize that which is not human, yet this is a personal attack there.
 
Yeah, I can't possibly have purely moral reasons for objecting to Apocalypse dehumanizing people. :roll:

Moderator's Warning:
Knock off the personal attacks or you get booted from the thread.
 
1)and as the article you refuse to address clearly states, "natural growth" is a problematic and misleading term

2) irrelevant dismissals don't amount to much

You are sourcing your arguments in opinion pieces, mostly from far-leftist radical activists.
It's not that my dismissals of those sources don't amount to much, it is that those sources do not amount to much and thus allow me to easily dismiss them.
If you would wish to refer to actual factual articles and not to opinion pieces or some far-leftist political organization such as Be'tselem and Yesh-Din then by all means you'd get my entire attention.
As it remains now however you barely act as a mirror for those organizations' and peoples' arguments and I do not see why I should argue with you and with them directly.

again, from the article: <<<Last February, Israel declared the expanse of land on which Givat Ha’eytam sits to be “state land” after rejecting Palestinian ownership claims to it as unsubstantiated. Only a small section, whose ownership by Palestinians Israel acknowledged, was exempt. Mayor Oded Revivi told the Forward that applications to develop the area as part of Efrat are currently “waiting on the desks” of Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak.

There is no reference to Israel acknowledging an ownership by Palestinians over that land.

Netanyahu’s office refuses to clarify whether natural growth, as Israel understands the term, would involve expanding settlements beyond the perimeters of their already built-up environments —

That is simply false as I've already referred you to a speech where he makes the statement that the settlements are not to grow externally and are only to grow internally, thus he does clarify and the opinion piece you're quoting is unsurprisingly misleading.

<<<Efrat is not alone among the 120 West Bank settlements in having jurisdiction over land well beyond its built-up sector. Among the most generously endowed settlements is Kibbutz Mitzpe Shalem, close to the Dead Sea. The settlement, with a population of just 200, offers housing to nonmembers of the kibbutz and has outlying jurisdiction of some 13.6 square miles — a spread of land equal to that of the central Israeli city of Petah Tikvah which has a population of 189,000.>>>

The entire point that the article tries to make as can be seen in this quote is that the settlements have bigger municipal boundaries that go beyond the point where it's already built. That is known and recognized, but what is false is to claim that because it is so the building in the already defined municipal boundaries is not natural growth. It definitely is, and the opinion article is wrong in claiming it otherwise.
 
Last edited:
There is nothing ill or immoral about insisting that human beings should be regarded as human beings. If you do not consider them human then there is no reason to treat them with humanity. You are also more likely to become just like them if you will not even consider them human and thus deserving of empathy.



Yeah, I can't possibly have purely moral reasons for objecting to Apocalypse dehumanizing people. :roll:



Thank you for demonstrating that you were not just dehumanizing the Palestinian leadership, but instead dehumanizing Palestinians in general.

It's funny how you are attempting to turn the notion of dehumanization on its ear here. It's perfectly fine to admire those who are so obsessed with dehumanizing Jews that they start brainwashing their children from the time they are born that the highest honor they can achieve in their society is through mass murder. Supporting those who so dehumanize Jews that they wish to exterminate them is just fine and dandy.

Respond with an improper degree political correctness towards those who live to kill, though, and watch out! Attacking those who reject genocidal racism does not make one a moral person even if you have tried to posit it as such.
 
I would like to steer back to the original question, why does the US support Israel.

Here are some possible explanations or theories other than the usual ones I read on this forum that say the "Jewish" lobby controls the US:

Why the U.S. Supports Israel | FPIF

Why Support Israel?

Why Americans Support Israel And Europeans Don`t

Why the U.S. and Israel Are Strong Allies - The Tech

I will continue with my own personal opinion next post. My point in this response is that some people believe the support from the U.S. at one level is genuine and not based on simply self interest.
 
so your refutation to a claim of personal attacks is to engage in even more irrelevant personal attacks? Mind boggling



basic human rights



1) the discussion isn't about me

2) again, I am extremely critical of the Arab states, including the PLO, PNA, and Hamas. In fact, I have been critical of Hamas in this very thread. So why not butt-waffle yourself back to the beginning and review the material in question, and save both of us from these embarrassing episodes, that add absolutely nothing to the discussion

3) such points seem irrelevant to the discussion, unless your appealing to some notion that individuals acting this way forfeit an entire peoples basic rights. Which is a premise I flatly reject as absurd





1) again, this thread isn't about me

2) indeed I have discussed Israeli policy here, on numerous occasions

3) why should anyone care what you think of this thread? If you don't like it then don't participate in it

What is mind boggling is the way you made me the subject in your earlier postings, and now complain when I respond in kind. If you think I have indulged in personal attacks, then hit that little exclamation point on the comment in question, o.k.?

Now, as to these "basic rights", you STILL haven't said what these basic rights are, especially considering the established pattern among Arab Palestinians in regards to their campaign to deny them for others. Are you actually thinking that it is a RIGHT to terrorize Jews, and if not, then why would you consider the measures Israel has taken to prevent such as denying them a right? Why do you place no responsibility whatsoever upon Palestinian Arabs to act in the sorts of peaceful ways that would engender more freedom for all?

Do you seriously expect Israel to say "hey, come on in and do what you want" to a group of terrorists? They chose to become a terrorist state, themselves. That your sympathies are with them here is certainly noted, but I am certainly free to continue to point out that the people you are supporting chose terrorism willingly.
 
US foreign policy in the Middle East is complex. To me when someone asks what the US gets from its alliance with Israel, I read in that they are already assuming benefitting Israel is of no benefit. In this series of threads I noticed soon after the first question was made by the original poster he followed up with the next comment that terrorists such as Hamas and Hezbollah will only attack enemies of Israel and so if Israel is not supported America has nothing to fear from them. That was the inference in the comment.

I would suggest this notion that terrorists go poof and disappear as long as you don't support Israel is a crock and is based on the ludicrous notion that believes only bad things happen to bad people or in this case only bad things happen if you are a Jew that doesn't k now your place and insist you have the right to a state.

In the case of applying it to Israelis, I would suggest the terrorists only attack Israel because it exists and no one else reasoning is based in fact on a well worn myth connected to all Jews that insist on expressing their collective identity and that is Jews should know their place and having a nation like Muslims have Muslim nations or Christians have Christian nations is not knowing their place.

Terrorists are just humans trying to remind us Jews need to know their place, and forming a collective is not their place and its noble and just to attack Jews worldwide or anyone who supports a Jew collective.

That is precisely what this series of threads deteriorated into a discussion on-a justification of terrorism against Israelis because they are Jews who do not know their place and their place is not in a nation but as second class dhimmits and kafis scattered across the world.

Can we bring some sanity back to this discussion.

US foreign policy to start with has never been simply one sided in the Middle East as much as some try simplistically suggest it is. The U.S. has always supported Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states as much as it does Israel and balances its strategic need for oil from these Aab client states as it does its support of Israel.

This simplistic portrayal that Israel gets all the money in support from the US is also a crock. The US spends as much money in foreign aid to Egypt and its Arab allies as it does Israel.

So the question is why support Israel.

Well for starters how about the people who ask make an effort to try find out who financially benefits from exchanges with Israel. Yes look at the military industrial complex. They are given monumental tax exemptions for work, i.e., research and develop they do with Israel. They are the primary beneficiaries. Israel is only a secondary beneficiary. It is a second beneficiary in that its being a researcher and tester of US military products means it gets Israeli jobs and first choice at certain US weapons but also puts it at a disadvantage in that it must promote US interests above its own on certain issues.

As well if someone bothered to do their homework they would see Israel pays back all its loans from the US including interest and is tied into military deals where it can not purchase military technology from anyone else or help any competitors of US military companies. It is not a one way street where only Israel benefits.

If the U.S. did not financially benefit from its relationship with Israel first and foremost it would not be there. Its not stupid. Its business first as is the case with all countries when they devise foreign policy not just the US.

US foreign policy is first and foremost based on protecting its oil supplies, secondly on propping its no.1 employer and economic activity, military sales, and thirdly a genuine ideological alliance with Israel. In the first two motives, it is no different then any other nation that supports any other nation. In regards to the third motive, it is genuinely different, particularly from the EU's position on the Middle East.

The US has a strong Christian voter base that supports Israel for religious reasons. However it also has ordinary grass roots non religious people, democrats and republicans, just ordinary non Jewish people even Muslim Americans who time and time again have supported Israel because they believe it is the only democracy in the Middle East and believe Jews have the right to form a nation no different then Americans did. They see Jews as having rebelled against colonialists no different then Americans once did and some people forget that.

It was the average American not the American government that supported Israel's creation. It was a battle waged by Elenor Roosevelt single handedly not the US state department which fought tooth and nail for support of an Israel state. Without her Israel would never have come about. She is the most crucial reason Israel exists if we are to look at the actions of one person only. She was the no.1 singular force in demanding Jews have a right to a nation. It was then a bunch of Americans mostly non Jewish who went and supported Israel. Most of those Americans were not even religious Christians. They were WW2 vets who remembered the holocaust and realized Jews had no where to go and these Americans fought the British who fought on behalf of the Arab League nations.

The British and French propped the Arab League armies and the British flew the Egyptian air force planes. It was a sudden release of thousands of Jews from the Soviet Union, the state of Czechoslovakia and a bunch of American war veterans that fought and enabled Israel to come about.

In fact Harry Truman had to go against his Joint Chiefs of Staff and state department both who were threatening to impeach him when he supported Israel.

In Israel's embryonic battle to come about only the Soviets and Czechs rallied to their assistance as formal nations and Stalin soon turned on Israel when he realized it was of better financial interest to support the Arab League nations who he first referred to as colonial stooges.

US foreign policy in the Middle East was always pro Saudi Arabian. It was only because of Elenor Roosevelt and a reluctant Truman who at the last second supported Israel because his gut told him it was the right thing to do, that caused a change in American policy-that and those grassroots Americans of no one political party who helped Israel.

We can spend hours disecting US foreign policy and show how financially it benefits far more then what it gives to Israel. We can also show how its motives are based on protecting its oil supplies. That can be easily done just as it can be done for Britain, France, the EU, Russia, China, etc.

But what can also be shown is Americans, non Jewish Americans including certain Muslim Americans have always supported the notion that Jews have a right to form a collective nation. Its not more complicated then this genuine believe at one level that Jews have a right to universal sufferage the exact same reason Americans wanted a nation at one point.

Sometimes we forget that at the pith and substance of a policy is a very simple belief that endures. I think people underestimate that unlike Europeans, Americans can be very stubborn about certain ideals they will not give up under any circumstance for any price.


Europeans see the Middle East as a pain. Other than Holland, European sees Israel as a problem that gets in the way of its oil supplies and sees befriending the Arab world as a business imperative. Holland has always had a gut support of Israel based on a genuine ideological compassion. Other then that the biggest ally of Israel, the US does so for many complex reasons but at the bottom of it all, a gut one of fairness.

If you must type an American it is that they are stubborn. They don't turn on their genuine allies or friends no matter what the down side is.

Not everything the US does is simply based on money hard as that is for some to believe.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom