Fifth Convention of the Fatah Revolutionary Council

Demon the fact you engage in the tactic of simply calling the sites where I obtained my information from hate sites to avoid debating the information they raise speaks for itself.

We all know the tactic. It also speaks for itself.

For you to state as you dod there was no organized expulsion of Jews from Arab league countries when even the Arab League admitted to the organized expulsions also speaks for itself.

You stated, "your comparison of the situation of Jews in Arab countries to slaves is just another act of ethnic slander..." is illogical. There was no slander or libel for that matter. No one's character was defamed. It is a fact Jews live in dhimmitude in the Arab world. That is a fact. You can try revise history to pretend Jews or Christians or non Muslims who live in dhimmitude are not living in an apartheid system but it is and it has nothing to do at all with defaming anyone's character.

You want to try justify Muslim dhimmitude go ahead. But trying to suggest because I raised it as a fact and a reason why Jews would not want to live in dhimmitude does not mean I have slandered anyone and your continued denial dhimmitude exists like your contined denial Jews were forcefully expelled from Arab league nations as direct retaliation for the Arab League's losing the war it started also speaks for itself.

You stated and I quote, "I am not looking to justify any abuse a government or group of individuals committed on the basis of ethnicity.." but that is exactly what you hav done. You engage in an attempt at revising history to pretend Sharia law and dhimmitude is not apartheid and discriminatory against non Jews and you engage in revisionist history trying to deny Jews were forcefully with deliberate premeditation expelled from Arab league nations.

You choose to ignore both precisely because you are trying to justify the abuse of Jews in the Middle East and by engaging in denial do not have to respond to it and accept it as part of the conflict. In your world only Palestinians were displaced, no one else. In your world of revisionism, the only people of the Middle East to be displaced were Palestinians and in the statement Mira made and you then followed up on, you suggest while denying the expulsions were organized, in the same breath do say they were caused by Zionists because had the Zionists not created a country there would have been no need to have expelled Jews from Middle East countries.

Now your attempt to deny but admit the expulsions depending on how you twist your arguement speaks also for itself.

You did though make one accusation as to my responses you stated and I quote; " but your attempts at belittling the suffering of Palestinians and exaggerating the suffering of Jews.."

Please provide the words I used that belittled Palestinians or exaggerated the suffering of Jews. When you make such accusations back them up or cease and desist with the name calling. I used no words to belittle any Palestinians nor did I use any references exaggerating the suffering of Jews. If you want to disagree with my opinion do so but don't make sweeping allegations as to words I did not say. Now either back up your allegations with the precise words I used that belittled Palestinians or kindly take back that allegation as it is completely unfounded.

As for your opinion that my comments can and I quote" only be explained as ethnic slander aimed at demeaning one people in favor of another.." no Demon sorry but at no time did I ever state the suffering of Jews was worse than Palestinians. You are just dead wrong. My words speak for themselves. I have always maintained and stated both peoples have equal arguements as to displacement.

When you stated these words, " Sorry, but I cannot stand that." may I suggest you at least make an effort to read what I write before you misrepresent and mistate it.

Go on Demon provide one word I stated that compared the suffering of Jews to Palestinians and said it was worse. You are wrong Demon to misquote and misrepresent what I said. Try at least to read what it is you are responding to. Please do not try suggest I said something I did not.

Demon when you make sweeping denials of historic fact, I will produce info to repudiate what you said. If you want to avoid debating it with name calling to avoid having to respond, your tactics will speak for themselves and Demon people can decide for themselves whether what I quote is hateful or the sites or sources are hateful.

Here's a hint Demon, the fact that I or others do not agree with you or your subjective biases as to what are the origins of the current conflict in Israel-Palestine does not make us hateful or belittling in nature against Palestinians.

You do not have a righteous monopoly on having the only position possible that does not ridicule Palestinians. One could even argue Demon your attempts to misrepresent what I said do in fact belittle Palestinians because they can be interpreted as patronizing to Palestinians and suppose Palestinians are not aware of the many Muslim Arabs that also displaced them from their lands and now claim their land as Palestinians or are not aware of the Arab League's role in forcing them into camps and treating them as second class Arab peoples refusing them citizenship in other countries and to this day treating them like criminals.

Some of us Demon are well aware the Arab world's fondness of Palestinians is a myth the same myth that would have us believe the only people at war with each other are Palestinians and Israelis and that no Arab country has had a problem with Palestinians.

Demon the denial as to the prejudice deeply engrained in the Arab world against Palestinians or the dhimmitude of Sharia law, theyd on't disappear because you deny them and try avoid discussing them.

Mika-El. Sources that are biased in favour of Israel will tell one thing and sources biased in favour of the Arabs will tell a whole different story.

The truth is neither the latter nor the former, the truth lies somewhere in the middle or perhaps outside of these sources.


enough said, this place saddens me .

Marry Christmas Mira. Lol, why is it when I quote from a site rather then address its issues I get a blanket accusation the site is bias? Is that debating, of course not. Its name calling. Its a tactic to avoid debating and I do not buy it nor should anyone else. Bias? Right. The Middle East Quarterly a Zionist rag? Right. Yah. Whatever.

Mira as I said in an earlier post, when I debate, I don't get sad or happy-emotions for me during debates are pointless. You want to throw a bottle at me during debate go ahead but I would hope it does not have fine wine in it. If its port fine. I hate port.

There are disagreements as to opinions. That is life. Rational people try talk them out. If someone gets happy or sad, I have no control over that simply because they don't agree with my opinions or vice versa. It's life. So don' be sad. Drink a nice glass of red wine and remember, the fact I diagree with you does not mean I will not wink at you. The appreciation of a woman's presence always precedes political opinion.

That said, I am now harumph humbug responding to the issues. I again repeat, in this conflict we continue to discuss there are two displaced people. I do not agree when Demon or anyone else tries to revise history to select out only certain story lines and ignore the rest.

At the present time, Mr. Abbas has refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and Mr. Netanyahu has refused to freeze settlements. To me that shows neither is ready to negotiate.

Now in regards to the currently stalled peace talks no Mr. Abbas does not come with any more clean hands then Netanyahu does. His hands are just as dirty so to speak and the tactic of trying to negotiate with ultimatum barks which is what he does has failed time and time again.

Every time Abbas barks an ultimatum he simply locks himself in an entrenched position or corner he can't move from without losing face. So he is ignored. He has become a pointless source of hot air.

The fact is he won't recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Right. Heard it a million times since 1948 and prior as well.

Please, to stand up and refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state saying it will harm his position on arguing self proclaimed Palestinian Arabs should be allowed en masse to return to Israel and with their majority end the state as a Jewish one speaks for itself. Why beat around the bush. It is no different then what Moe Ghaddafi has said and we all know what a gentle and peaceful man Moe is. Nothing for that matter that Mr. Arafat, Mr. Nasser and so many others have said before either. Been there. Heard that.

Mr. Abbas is touting the same tired line from 1948. No Jewish state.

Before any serious negotiations take place there will have to be a settlement freeze yes but the Palestinian people as a collective through its leaders are also going to have to stop playing the double speak game and put up or shut up. This half assed way of trying to get rid of Israel fools no one.

Oh let's negotiate. Either we violently attack you until you cease to exist, or you agree to become extinct voluntarily.

Right.

No Israeli, leta lone Benji Netanyahu has any intention of negotiating with a toothless hot air balloon who sends the same message Israel has heard since 1948-no to a Jewish state and anyone who calls themself Palestinian should be able to walk into Israel, be given land and Israeli citizenship.


That is the mandate Abbas pursues. The only difference between him and Hamas is Hamas believes it needs to be done violently, and Abbas by posturing and engaging in double speak.

Either way no Israeli is going to agree to extinction so let's stop beating around the bush.

For a major psychological break through to set the stage for both sides actually negotiating in good faith it won't be with Hamas, Netanyahu or Abbas. That is just a fact. It might be sad, but its a fact. All three are entrenched in their positions.

Hamas won't renounce the violent destruction of Israel. Abbas clings to the pathetic double speak used to tell Palestinians he won't stop until Israel is re-obtained but wink wink talk on the other side of his mouth at the same time and tell the Western press he offers to recognize pre 1967 borders loudly and then he can somply mumble quietly and put into small print the second part of that deal which demands anyone calling themself a Palestinian be allowed back in Israel and given land not to mention all Israelis removed from the West Bank.

Right. Netanyahu? Does anyone think he or Tzipi Levni or Ehud Barak or any other Israeli leader is going to allow another farse like the one with Arafat and agree to enter into negotiations that are meaningless and just a hoax...a stalling tactic to dismantle Israel?

Does anyone think Netanyahu or other Israeli leaders moderate or extreme will negotiate their extinction?

Show me one Palestinian moderate who has said openly-we will recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Show me 1. Not 1. Not 1. Each 1 has refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Each one demands anyone calling themselves a Palestinian should be able to return there. If they don't claim they will use terrorism, no matter how unreasonable that is they get defined as moderates. Its moderate after all to demand someone become extinct without shooting them dead.

Of course.

Please do me a favour for Christmas. Find Palestinians willing to live side by side a Jewish state so Israelis can find them and reach out to them. That is the solution. Its time grass roots Israelis and Palestinians reach out to one another.

Israelis need no lectures from anyone no different then Palestinians do. They have been trying to find someone serious to negotiate with since 1948 and no they will not negotiate their extinction.

So far no one in the Arab world has the petunias to dare say-a Jewish state exists and we will live side by side it without trying to destroy it and we recognize its Jewish identity. Until that happens all the rest is b.s.

It takes peace loving people on both sides to negotiate. The peace groups in Israel are shut out of the process right now because no one from the Arab side has the political power or will to reach out to them and dare enrage Hamas.

Time and time when Israelis have tried to reach out they have been able to find no one willing to renounce violence or accept their right to live in a Jewish state.

Until that happens we will continue to play double speak while what we are reading is the same b.s. the Arab League broadcast before, during and after Israel was created demanding it go away. It won't.

Thank you for the well wishes Mika-El but I don't celebrate Christmas or any other religious holiday, I'm a fervent atheist.
Other than that you are absolutely correct, I'm trying to avoid debating and been posting less and less. I only do so when I get bored and thank goodness, that happens very rarely.

We absolutely don't have to agree and neither of us has to take the other's sources seriously. I'm not an Internet person at all actually.

take care