Israel Palestine Solutions Poll

1. Just stops the killing and doesn't preclude small adjustments even though called 'peace in place'.

2. What many are pushing for now; but I think some of them just hoping to Bludgeon a difficult Netanyahu to #4.
Though many want this as THE solution.

3. is uncoventional but perhaps shouldn't be. 20% of Israel is Palestinian Arab. Don't know why palestinians have to have a Judenrein state.

4. Negotiations, New "secure and recognized borders" what's called for under Resolution 242.
My choice based on that Res that all say they agree on. Looking very much like: http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2008/08/18/55037.html

5. Not going to happen; suicide for Israel demographically, but some want that outcome so must include in any fair poll.
Some also feel 'palestine' after settlements, if no exchanges/adjustments/accommodations are made isn't 'viable'.

6. Both Fatah and Hamas want only a single Palestine, but Both want to be it's ruler. Reconciliation talks of years have been unfruitful with Iran encouraging Hamas to be difficult.

7. Also IMO, Not going to happen but added for full range.
After the 1948 War Jordan, which is 70% 'Palestinian' (as it's Queen) Annexed the West Bank and Egypt ruled Gaza.
Some, ergo, on the Pro-Israel side have oft asserted "jordan is Palestine" citing that fact and other early history of the conflict.
It's biggest plus would be a gaurantee of Stability within two of the most peaceful Arab states. It's Minus, no state called 'palestine' and therefore it's a very, very, Unlikely outcome.

I think that covers them all, tho combos are possible, and there are some more exotic ones. I have Several more, but haven't posted the more theoretical ones. May post two more after these main ones are discussed.

EDIT: Thanks to CaptainCourtesy for finally making this OP into a poll/happen.
Thanks to Tashah, Hugh Akston, and Redress, for previous help attempts.

dismantle settlements, 1967 borders, three states

I like the one-state solution though not a complete integration of the regions. However, if the territory must be divided I cannot see a two-state solution as workable. You would have an Arab nation bisected by a Jewish one. Renewed conflict would be inevitable.

I accidentally selected the wrong one. -_-

Demon of Light said:

I like the one-state solution though not a complete integration of the regions. However, if the territory must be divided I cannot see a two-state solution as workable. You would have an Arab nation bisected by a Jewish one. Renewed conflict would be inevitable.

Click to expand...

I don't see how 'one state' is workable.
Calling them autonomous regions of one state would be in name only.
A tip toward and then to a Muslim Majority made Lebanon a War zone.

The 1947 Partition plan made both state roughly 'bisected' regardless of any territorial gains since.
Some of that based on local population majorities.
You'd have to propose a map and reconfiguration and explain it's viability in re defense and other matters.

Orion said:

I accidentally selected the wrong one. -_-

Click to expand...

But you're keeping it a secret. (and wasting a post as well)
Which one you really want and which one you accidentally chose.
and, of course, why.
-

I say the Palestinians should go back to the countries that abandoned them after the '67 war.

Vader said:

I say the Palestinians should go back to the countries that abandoned them after the '67 war.

Click to expand...

Jordan and the WB could work out a deal but WBers don't want to.
They're thinking statehood late 2011.

Egypt wouldn't touch Hamas with a 10 foot poll and Hamas wants nothing to do with Egypt.
Relations between the two are worse every year, even every month.
Closed borders, violence, and charges and countercharges are daily occurences.

Report: Egypt cutting Hamas off

Al-Mesryoon reports Cairo has decided to deny entry visas to movement's officials, freeze diplomatic channels with Gaza rulers, 'in response to defamation campaign against Egypt'

Click to expand...

Hamas: Egypt torturing Palestinian detainees
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3888723,00.html

The only just solution would be one state, secular, multicultural, democratic for all. While this would seem rather impractical at the current moment, I think it will be the solution some generations from now. For this to happen peacefully, a two state solution on the '67 borders would have to take effect soon. The end of zionism will come about eventually because it cannot overwhelm the natural course of human assimilation and integration. All eventually must and will live as equals on the land, but the deciding factor will either be through a peaceful middle east renaissance some generations from now started by a two state solution now and a gradual dismantling of Zionism and all religious supremacy (this will occur naturally and gradually just as the process of racial integration in america took it's course from emancipation to full civil rights), or a destruction of Zionist supremacist rule by violent means, some years from now. Israel the Zionist Jewish State has reached it's zenith and cannot sustain this just as Al-Saud cannot sustain their kingdom as it is.

No peace solution that includes a Palestinian State will lead to an abiding peace. I voted for no State, that Jordan and Egypt take command of the Palestinian territories as they are the only powers that would be able to impose the necessary security to protect Israel's interests without being constantly subjected to hypocritical and morally risible "condemnations" from European States.

Palisrael anyone?

I doubt much progress on the issue is going to be made while Netanyahu is in charge of Israel, but for the long term I think the most likely solution is a negotiated borders, a withdrawal of the settlements and probably a required mutual defense pact to make up for the security loss of the settlements. Using the '67 border after 43 years is just not going to work so some negotiation reflecting current realities will be needed. Neither Egypt nor Jordan wants the Palestinian territories back so that one is never happening. A single-state, even a secular or multi-cultural one, may have worked a few decades ago but after two intifadas tens of thousands dead and decades of bad blood that is a pipe dream. A three state solution could happen, but I highly doubt it. The Palestinian territories are going to have a hard enough time being a viable state without being split in two. Furthermore, the Palestinians don't want it so it ain't happening.

Civil1z@tion said:

I doubt much progress on the issue is going to be made while Netanyahu is in charge of Israel,

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I agree with you.

but for the long term I think the most likely solution is a negotiated borders, a withdrawal of the settlements and probably a required mutual defense pact to make up for the security loss of the settlements. Using the '67 border after 43 years is just not going to work so some negotiation reflecting current realities will be needed.

Click to expand...

"Withdrawal of the Settlements" is somewhat contradictory with "Negotiated borders" especially since you also mention the 1967 borders won't work and negotiatioins are necessary; recognizing as many do 'realities on the ground'.

Neither Egypt nor Jordan wants the Palestinian territories back so that one is never happening. A single-state, even a secular or multi-cultural one, may have worked a few decades ago but after two intifadas tens of thousands dead and decades of bad blood that is a pipe dream. A three state solution could happen, but I highly doubt it. The Palestinian territories are going to have a hard enough time being a viable state without being split in two. Furthermore, the Palestinians don't want it so it ain't happening.

Click to expand...

I agree but I was posting a fair poll and many of those "unlikely" solutions are some people's choices; a significant percent in fact.

What's I find surprising is a few Regulars in the section on the anti-Israel side have Definitely seen this string/Poll and Not voted.
Are we to assume that's because I didn't include the 'Helen Thomas option'?
-

I'd rather see Israel return to the 1967 lines and allow all the Arab-Palestinian refugees to return to their land in Israel that they either fled from or were forced off of during the Palestinian War and the Six-Day War. Then allow them all to freely participate in a Democratic Israeli government.

mbig said:

What's I find surprising is a few Regulars in the section on the anti-Israel side have Definitely seen this string/Poll and Not voted.
Are we to assume that's because I didn't include the 'Helen Thomas option'?
-

Click to expand...

How do you know who has or hasn't voted? Where does it give the list of posters who voted for each option? I'd like to see that.

Andalublue said:

How do you know who has or hasn't voted? Where does it give the list of posters who voted for each option? I'd like to see that.

Click to expand...

you can only see it if you havn't voted, but here's the link to the page

Israel Palestine Solutions Poll - View Poll Results

spud_meister said:

you can only see it if you havn't voted, but here's the link to the page

Israel Palestine Solutions Poll - View Poll Results

Click to expand...

So, does that mean that if he could see the results, mbig hadn't voted in his own poll either?

Andalublue said:

So, does that mean that if he could see the results, mbig hadn't voted in his own poll either?

Click to expand...

actually, turns out i was wrong :3oops: you can check who voted by clicking on the numbers next to the option. i really should lay off the bourbon when on here :3oops:

Andalublue said:

So, does that mean that if he could see the results, mbig hadn't voted in his own poll either?

Click to expand...

Actually mbig is one of the 16 (as to present time) who have voted on the option "Two states: Negotiated borders. Degrees of withdrawal and/or Land exchange up to 100%+".

Besides that, I for one never vote on my own polls, I create polls to see what other people think and not what I think.

I've voted "Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders", but I think some negotiated land exchange is fine too. I think such a negotiation should realistically be oriented at the 1967 borders to be successful.

mbig said:

What's I find surprising is a few Regulars in the section on the anti-Israel side have Definitely seen this string/Poll and Not voted.
Are we to assume that's because I didn't include the 'Helen Thomas option'?
-

Click to expand...

Well there are two problems with the poll

1 it doesnt specify if we are voting for the solution we would like in an ideal world or the solution that would actually work. My ideal solution would be one state but if you could pull off one of the more unjust deals peacefully then that would legitimise them.

2 It doesnt define who gets to live in these states, I would be very much in favor of a two state solution if some (obviously there would have to be haggling about the numbers) of those whose families were forced to leave Israel were allowed to come back and/or compensation was given to those who could not go back.

Red_Dave said:

1 it doesnt specify if we are voting for the solution we would like in an ideal world or the solution that would actually work. My ideal solution would be one state but if you could pull off one of the more unjust deals peacefully then that would legitimise them.

Click to expand...

Well obviously it's speaking about one's ideal solution.
If this was about solutions that would work, you wouldn't see the one-state and no-state solutions on that list.

Apocalypse said:

Well obviously it's speaking about one's ideal solution.
If this was about solutions that would work, you wouldn't see the one-state and no-state solutions on that list.

Click to expand...

I thought there was something crazy about me having voted for the same option as you!!!:mrgreen:

I was voting for what I thought would be a workable and potentially viable way through. I'd like to see Israel concede to pre-67 borders, but that isn't going to happen this side of Armageddon. The option that requires current and substantive negotiations based on current realities is the only one that has any chance, and even then, only about the same chance as a virgin leaving a professional footballers' orgy with her cherry intact.

Andalublue said:

I thought there was something crazy about me having voted for the same option as you!!!:mrgreen:

Click to expand...

You had a bad day, your forgiven

Paul

Red_Dave said:

-- 2 It doesnt define who gets to live in these states, I would be very much in favor of a two state solution if some (obviously there would have to be haggling about the numbers) of those whose families were forced to leave Israel were allowed to come back and/or compensation was given to those who could not go back.

Click to expand...

mbig said:

-- 7. Also IMO, Not going to happen but added for full range.
After the 1948 War Jordan, which is 70% 'Palestinian' (as it's Queen) Annexed the West Bank and Egypt ruled Gaza.
Some, ergo, on the Pro-Israel side have oft asserted "jordan is Palestine" citing that fact and other early history of the conflict.
It's biggest plus would be a gaurantee of Stability within two of the most peaceful Arab states. It's Minus, no state called 'palestine' and therefore it's a very, very, Unlikely outcome --

Click to expand...

Firstly, compensation is the key as well as offering real economic development. I don't think Israel should be forced to accept or integrate any Palestinians into the state of Israel as this only creates a small rump of malcontents that would be a permanent and internal cause for concern and security worries.

Until I saw mbig's poll - I'd only read of the large Palestinian population of Jordan - it never sank in that a proper solution could be found. My thoughts - a semi-autonomous region of an enlarged Jordan that was not just the West Bank but also of Gaza. [Palestinians have greater DNA ties to Jordan than to Egypt (IMO)] - any such autonomous region would have to be more than the detritus land that Israel hasn't built settlements on - Israel would have to demolish some of the settlements and hand over a contiguous region that connects Gaza to Jordan and the West Bank to Jordan.

I don't think a connection through Israel would be important - this only brings about a corridor for potential terrorists and malcontents - as a greater Palestine region of Jordan would be formed and people could visit each other's regions around Israels borders.

There can be no going back and removing the jews from what is now Israel - Israel exists but to make for Palestine I think it should be an autonomous region of a greater state rather than an independent state called "Palestine" and that the compensation as described by Red Dave should be a firm commitment from the West and Arab states to provide financial aid and opportunities for development. Jordan shouldn't just feel that it's being given a problem population to deal with without aid, Israel should feel safe and know its right to exist has been acknowledged by the Arab World.

I think I would describe my previous wish as a two state solution - however that has always been a wish without much real conviction it would survive. Certainly it wouldn't survive without similar financial and technical support as Israel has enjoyed over the years from the US. Israel has given itself the problem of two small and divided zones that simply cannot survive on their own and in the circumstances that exist now any contiguous state would be a hostile zone wishing for the destruction of Israel.

Israel has to work with its neighbours - particularly Jordan, both to help and to show that it's not just foisting a troublesome population off its own hands. Jordan has to see benefits and that Israel is making some form of sacrifice and the west (and the UN) have to be involved over the long term.

This will sound cold hearted and maybe even sarcastic...its not meant to...but seriously...you want 'peace'? Let them declare full scale war and wipe each other out...and I dont mean a little wiped out I mean obliterated...not decimated...totally destroyed. Then you would have peace. Thats the ONLY way you will ever truly have peace there.