Anti-semitism, anti-zionism.. where/when it crosses a line.

Anti-semitism, anti-zionism, Israel Criticism.. where/when it crosses a line.

There seems to be alot of controversy, as everywhere, about about Israel critism and anti-semitism. A discussion that needs airing.

I see very little anti-semitism on this board, even very few 'ant-zionists'.
Anti-zionism to me being objecting to Israel's existence, not as some/many now use it to describe 'aggressive' policies of Israel.
(Check out the former Forum of many here PF, for the routine Bigoted use of the term.)
In fact, that's the usage I find questionable and the one I believe has been forbidden here, the accusation/epithet 'zionist' as if this means "aggressive Israeli" or "aggressive Jew".

To me 'zionism' is a done deal.
There are Israelis who are for retreat to the 1967 borders, those wanting some sort of compromise (those two being the vast majority) and those few settlers who want all of the WB.
But ALL of these people, including those of us who support Israel's existence and right to defend itself, are 'zionists'.
Just as here in the USA there are those for a more or less strong foreign policy. That doesn't make any of them more or less American.

Of course not all Israel critics are biased. And again, on this board, which is perhaps an exception, there is IMO little anti-semitism masked a Israel Bashing. But Proxy-anti-semtism/'The New anti-semitism' IS quite common on others.

Though references/strings about "Genocide" and/or "War Crimes" I do find demonizing; especially in light of the USA and other's 'war on terror' which seem less targeted than Israel's but get less criticism as "War Crimes".

A good piece on this by Alan Dershowitz on HuffingtonPost. July 2005.
Also like the quote by Thomas Friedman.
Alan Dershowitz: When Legit Criticism Crosses the Anti-Semitism Line

"It's interesting how quickly the bigots -- Jews and non-Jews alike -- crawl out from under their rocks as soon as Israel is mentioned. (See the comments to my previous post on Norman Finkelstein.)
The newest form of Bigotry is to claim that I and others who generally support Israel argue that "anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite."
This is a bald-faced lie. I always criticize specific Israeli policies, Israeli leaders, and Israeli actions.

Most Israelis criticize specific policies. Israel is among the most self-critical countries in the world. Several years ago, I offered a large monetary award (payable to the PLO) for anyone who could actually come up with a quote by a prominent pro-Israeli writer who equated mere criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. No one came to collect the reward, because no respectable person has ever made this absurd claim.
As Thomas Friedman of The New York Times accurately put it, "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But Singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction -- Out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East -- is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest".
[......]
A CHECKLIST OF FACTORS THAT TEND TO INDICATE ANTI-SEMITISM
[.......]
A CHECKLIST OF FACTORS THAT TEND TO INDICATE LEGITIMATE CRITICISM OF ISRAEL
[.......]

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I don't think it's necessarily anti-semitic to be anti-zionist. To me, being anti-semitic means that you have an irrational fear or dislike of the Jewish people. I do not have an irrational fear or dislike of the Jewish people. Neither do I have a rational fear or dislike of the Jewish people. However, I am definitely not a zionist.

My views on Zionism is that while I am not specifically for a Jewish state, neither am I specifically against a Jewish state. I am rather decidedly neutral in the belief that there must be independent nations for Jews and Muslim in the land of Israel.

Now, I understand all the hurt that the Jewish people have gone through and what they do go through now. I know that there are people who deny their right to exist, and have done so for thousand of years.

However, I don't think that Israel should be absolutely Jewish. I don't think that Jews should govern Israel in a way that would deny the rights of those of other ethnicities and religions.

Again, I know that the Muslims who surround Israel love to deny the rights of non-Muslims. I realize this is the fear of the Israelis and why they have their stance. However I do not support Muslim nations who deny the rights of non-Muslims. I am against those Muslim nations who would seek to destroy Israel.

Now, I admit that I have never been to the Middle East. I don't live there. Neither am I a Jew nor a Muslim. I don't have a vested interest in either side. Also, I am American, so this could be my naivete coming out to believe that both Jews and Palestinians could eventually come up with a way to live in the land of Israel peacefully with each other. My ideas could be totally unrealistic for both sides. And because I am aware of my own ignorance of all the myriad issues involved in the conflicts in the Middle East, I tend to shy away from the arguments, as the history is so long. I do discuss it or argue it, but I don't keep at discussions involving the Middle East.

In another thread, there were discussions about Palestinians moving away from wanting a two-state solution and instead favoring a one-state solution, basically governing the state of Israel together. In that thread, I mentioned that if the Palestinians really wanted this, they would let Jews in the settlements in the West Bank to take part in the governing of the West Bank. Basically, the Palestinians should experiment with co-rule with Jews in the West Bank. If the Muslims and Jews are able to co-govern the West Bank, then it has the potential to unite the West Bank with Israel and the Gaza Strip to form a greater nation. I don't know how much this particular possibility has been discussed, but it may be a solid step on the long path to peace between the two peoples.

Another possible solution would be to make a confederation out of the Holy Land. Perhaps make a confederation of Greater Israel, made up of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, with Jerusalem protected and governed by both Jews and Muslims. Jerusalem could be the capitol of Greater Israel, while Israel keeps Tel Aviv as it's capitol, and the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have capitols of their own. I don't know if that's been proposed or not. It's something to think about.

So personally, I am neither zionist nor anti-zionist, but I am definitely not anti-semitic. I favor any path that will end the violence in the Holy Land. I wouldn't even mind it if the whole area of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip was protected over by the U.N., with only local governments ruling individual settlements and no national government of any kind.

Whatever it will take for both Israelis and Palestinians and Muslims and Jews of that area to live in peace without either side infringing on the rights of the other I am all for.

I've never known any Jewish people in real life, or if I did, I didn't know they were Jewish.
Religion isn't a topic that seems to come up much in my world.

Any criticism I ever make of Israel can be taken as exactly that: a criticism of Israel.
To me, it's just another country.
If I have no problem criticizing my own country, why should I be afraid to criticize Israel?
My tax dollars subsidize Israel.
I will not accept accusations of anti-semitism.
To me, that's nothing more than white people crying racism.

I've never known any Jewish people in real life, or if I did, I didn't know they were Jewish.
Religion isn't a topic that seems to come up much in my world.

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One can be Jewish without following Judaism.

To me, that's nothing more than white people crying racis

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Jews are olive skinned for the most part.

samsmart said:

I don't think it's necessarily anti-semitic to be anti-zionist. To me, being anti-semitic means that you have an irrational fear or dislike of the Jewish people. I do not have an irrational fear or dislike of the Jewish people. Neither do I have a rational fear or dislike of the Jewish people. However, I am definitely not a zionist.

My views on Zionism is that while I am not specifically for a Jewish state, neither am I specifically against a Jewish state. I am rather decidedly neutral in the belief that there must be independent nations for Jews and Muslim in the land of Israel.

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Thanks for sincere reply.

What do you mean 'Muslim People'?
There are 1.3 Billion.
There are 300 Million Arabs within that.
Do you feel Any group should have state. Ethnic or otherwise.
'Americans', 'Greeks', 'Saudis', 'French', etc?

Now, I understand all the hurt that the Jewish people have gone through and what they do go through now. I know that there are people who deny their right to exist, and have done so for thousand of years.

However, I don't think that Israel should be absolutely Jewish. I don't think that Jews should govern Israel in a way that would deny the rights of those of other ethnicities and religions.

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Israel is 20% Arab.
I'm sure there's some discrimination, but by-and-large everyone has equal rights in Israel. There are Arabs in it's Parliament and Supreme Court.
There are arabs in Israel who openly preach it's end. Yet they are unmolested.

Again, I know that the Muslims who surround Israel love to deny the rights of non-Muslims. I realize this is the fear of the Israelis and why they have their stance. However I do not support Muslim nations who deny the rights of non-Muslims. I am against those Muslim nations who would seek to destroy Israel.

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Muslims Mistreating their minorities has Nothing to do with Israel
Iraqi, Egyptian, Indonesian, Pakistani, etc, Christians are persecuted having zilch to do with Israel.

In another thread, there were discussions about Palestinians moving away from wanting a two-state solution and instead favoring a one-state solution, basically governing the state of Israel together. In that thread, I mentioned that if the Palestinians really wanted this, they would let Jews in the settlements in the West Bank to take part in the governing of the West Bank. Basically, the Palestinians should experiment with co-rule with Jews in the West Bank. If the Muslims and Jews are able to co-govern the West Bank, then it has the potential to unite the West Bank with Israel and the Gaza Strip to form a greater nation. I don't know how much this particular possibility has been discussed, but it may be a solid step on the long path to peace between the two peoples.

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An interesting thought, but 'one state' would mean the end of Jews in the M-E.
Christians are going going.... and Muslims are even more hostile to Jews.
A one State would be the end of Jews as it has meant the end of Palestinian Christians. Even worse/faster.
If I was a Jewish Israeli I would Pre-flee and not wait around for the inevitable.

And at the Moment the Palestians can't even agree on a single goverment among trhemselves. Hamas/Hamastan/Gaza and Fatah/WB.
I don't think throwing Israelis/Jews into the mix would help.

So personally, I am neither zionist nor anti-zionist, but I am definitely not anti-semitic. I favor any path that will end the violence in the Holy Land. I wouldn't even mind it if the whole area of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip was protected over by the U.N., with only local governments ruling individual settlements and no national government of any kind.

Whatever it will take for both Israelis and Palestinians and Muslims and Jews of that area to live in peace without either side infringing on the rights of the other I am all for.

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Would you consider/risk instead of the USA, a "Greater America", ruled by say, Hugo Chavez and Daniel Ortega?

OxymoronP said:

One can be Jewish without following Judaism.




Jews are olive skinned for the most part.

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Hogwash.
Ashkenazi Jews are whiter than me.

1069 said:

Hogwash.
Ashkenazi Jews are whiter than me.

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You didnt say Ashkenazi Jews, you said Jews. And yes some Ashkenazi Jews are quiet white, while others are olive skinned. For example my brother is olive skinned, where I am blue eyed.

OxymoronP said:

You didnt say Ashkenazi Jews, you said Jews. And yes some Ashkenazi Jews are quiet white, while others are olive skinned. For example my brother is olive skinned, where I am blue eyed.

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Ashkenazi Jews make up over 80% of the world's Jewish population.
Before the holocaust, they made up almost 95%.
I shouldn't have to specify it.
They comprise the vast- the overwhelming- majority.

I'm Scots-Irish.
I'm olive-skinned, dark-haired, dark-eyed.
You won't see me crying racial discrimination. I'm white.

1069 said:

Ashkenazi Jews make up over 80% of the world's Jewish population.
Before the holocaust, they made up almost 95%.
I shouldn't have to specify it.
They comprise the vast majority.

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Yes that is true, and like I said some are White and some are olive skinned. Not all Ashkenazis are white like I told you before.

I'm Scots-Irish.
I'm olive-skinned, dark-haired, dark-eyed.
You won't see me crying racial discrimination. I'm white.

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I was just pointing out an error you made, but the discrimination against Jews is not colored based persay. So its not racism its anti-semitism (Ethnisism if thats a word)

OxymoronP said:

Yes that is true, and like I said some are White and some are olive skinned. Not all Ashkenazis are white like I told you before.

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And that "factoid" (because I don't believe it) is what 'antisemitism' accusations are supposedly about?

Look, I'm constantly hearing that this or that celebrity or public figure is Jewish.
And i'm like, "Oh, really? I had no idea."
Not that I care. But the fact is, I would never have known if they hadn't made the matter public.
There's no way to tell if someone's Jewish by looking at them, because they're just regular old white people.
So I don't get the discrimination part.
They seem to be deeply entrenched in the power structure; I'm not sure how anyone could discriminate against them in this day and age, although they've certainly been through hell in the past, as have a lot of other European peoples (such as the Irish).
But true, their hell was worse, and more recent.
But also true, they seem to have bounced back from it rather smartly.

OxymoronP said:

I was just pointing out an error you made, but the discrimination against Jews is not colored based persay. So its not racism its anti-semitism (Ethnisism if thats a word)

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Ethnicism.

Are Jews subject to ethnicism, in your opinion?

Look, I'm constantly hearing that this or that celebrity or public figure is Jewish.
And i'm like, "Oh, really? I had no idea."
Not that I care. But the fact is, I would never have known if they hadn't made the matter public.
There's no way to tell if someone's Jewish by looking at them, because they're just regular old white people.

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Thats because you have always lived in a melting pot, with many different groups all catagerized as "whites" a term that is very Amerocentric.

In Europe Jews were easily picked out, based on appearance. I for instance can tell who is a Jew by look, my parents can tell who is Russian, who is Finnish, German etc.

So I don't get the discrimination part.
They seem to be deeply entrenched in the power structure; I'm not sure how anyone could discriminate against them in this day and age, although they've certainly been through hell in the past.

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Very true in the US today Jews dont face antisemitism as a majour issue, it still happens (Attacks in Seattle on a synaguage, attemted attack in NY). I wouldnt support my country if this was a majour issue here.

Yet anti semitism still exists in many parts of the world especially in Eastern Europe, Middle East, latin American, and some parts of Western Europe(Less so obviously).

OxymoronP said:

Yet anti semitism still exists in many parts of the world especially in Eastern Europe, Middle East, latin American, and some parts of Western Europe(Less so obviously).

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Oh. I didn't know that. I'm sorry to hear it.

Is it not possible to easily distinguish between disapproval of the current actions of the country called Israel, and antisemitism?
Especially in the US, where anti-semitism isn't much of an issue?

1069 said:

Oh. I didn't know that. I'm sorry to hear it.

Is it not possible to easily distinguish between disapproval of the current actions of the country called Israel, and antisemitism?

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I think Israel has many things that could be critisized without it being anti-semitic. If you say Israel is wrong in bombing civilians that is perfectly legit position (Perhaps wrong, perhaps right), saying Israel is inherintely evil because it is a Jewish run state then your being anti semitic.

Like Israel again does this and that, I should have expected that from these (Insert Jewish stereo type here).

OxymoronP said:

I think Israel has many things that could be critisized without it being anti-semitic. If you say Israel is wrong in bombing civilians that is perfectly legit position (Perhaps wrong, perhaps right), saying Israel is inherintely evil because it is a Jewish run state then your being anti semitic.

Like Israel again does this and that, I should have expected that from these (Insert Jewish stereo type here).

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Only stupid people say things like that.
I wouldn't think it would be much of a concern.
I don't take it to heart when ignorant people make stupid comments about women. I know that only uneducated, disempowered, and disenfranchised people make such mindless statements, and as such, they're no threat to me and are only worthy of my pity.

1069 said:

Only stupid people say things like that.
I wouldn't think it would be much of a concern.
I don't take it to heart when ignorant people make stupid comments about women. I know that only uneducated, disempowered, and disenfranchised people make such mindless statements, and as such, they're no threat to me and are only worthy of my pity.

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The only advise I can give you in life is that never underestimate your enemies.

You think the Jews living in modern sophisticated 20th century Germany ever thought they were in real danger from these "stupid ignorant" people? They thought it was a fad, they underestimated the power of hate and anger. It is ones job to take things seriously to understand their significance, in order to understand your strategy to victory you must understand your enemy. Allowing things to be ignored leads to real problems. Basically you must take things personally but not get influenced into irrationality.

OxymoronP said:

The only advise I can give you in life is that never underestimate your enemies.

You think the Jews living in modern sophisticated 20th century Germany ever thought they were in real danger from these "stupid ignorant" people? They thought it was a fad, they underestimated the power of hate and anger. It is ones job to take things seriously to understand their significance, in order to understand your strategy to victory you must understand your enemy. Allowing things to be ignored leads to real problems. Basically you must take things personally but not get influenced into irrationality.

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Yeah, I guess.
I do take opposition to women's reproductive rights very seriously, even though I don't think they have any realistic chance of ever taking my rights away.
But if someone (a particular forum member comes to mind) is just running around randomly spouting off like, "Women are inferior. All women are bitches and ho's", I'm not going to take that person seriously. He's not worth the effort. He's pathetic.

But back to antisemitism.
I'm only interested in it because it seems to be a hot-button issue, and I'm trying to understand better.
Surely there should be some guidelines as to what constitutes antisemitism and what constitutes disagreement with or disapproval of the actions of a particular country, especially when they impact us so personally (my son, for instance, will no doubt be deployed to the middle east at some point in the near future. It doesn't get more personal than that).

The guidelines you presented seem reasonable:

"I think Israel has many things that could be critisized without it being anti-semitic. If you say Israel is wrong in bombing civilians that is perfectly legit position (Perhaps wrong, perhaps right), saying Israel is inherintely evil because it is a Jewish run state then your being anti semitic.

Like Israel again does this and that, I should have expected that from these (Insert Jewish stereo type here)."


But it seems frequently not to be so clear-cut.
I've always stayed out of this forum, but I'm beginning to have a few opinions on the issue, and I want to understand why it's such a point of contention (disagreement with the actions of Israel).
True, we're their "ally". Not sure why, but hell, why not? They're not overtly hostile toward us, might as well be their ally.
But we criticize others of our allies frequently, and there is no question of racism or ethnicism. The accusation simply never comes up.
It seems like a nuisance, to say the least- a barrier to rational and productive discussion- that it comes up so frequently when discussing Israel.

1069 said:

But back to antisemitism.
I'm only interested in it because it seems to be a hot-button issue, and I'm trying to understand better.
Surely there should be some guidelines as to what constitutes antisemitism and what constitutes disagreement with or disapproval of the actions of a particular country, especially when they impact us so personally (my son, for instance, will no doubt be deployed to the middle east at some point in the near future. It doesn't get more personal than that).

The guidelines you presented seem reasonable:..............


But it seems frequently not to be so clear-cut.
I've always stayed out of this forum, but I'm beginning to have a few opinions on the issue, and I want to understand why it's such a point of contention (disagreement with the actions of Israel).
True, we're their "ally". Not sure why, but hell, why not? They're not overtly hostile toward us, might as well be their ally.
But we criticize others of our allies frequently, and there is no question of racism or ethnicism. The accusation simply never comes up.

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It's IN the OP.
Check it out!!!!!!

It HAS Lists:

A CHECKLIST OF FACTORS THAT TEND TO INDICATE ANTI-SEMITISM
[.......]
A CHECKLIST OF FACTORS THAT TEND TO INDICATE LEGITIMATE CRITICISM OF ISRAEL
[.......]

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mbig said:

It's IN the OP.
Check it out!!!!!!

It HAS Lists:

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Is that universally accepted? Are those "official", definitive guidelines?
Or is it the sort of thing where everybody has a different opinion about what constitutes antisemitism?

1069 said:

Is that universally accepted? Are those "official", definitive guidelines?
Or is it the sort of thing where everybody has a different opinion about what constitutes antisemitism?

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It's Not a Law..... obviously.... but it's a start.
Or do you want to be argumentative without even reading/challenging any of those criteria?
Too much time to devote to a mere post huh?
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When people call others who criticize Israel anti-semites, it's just a smoke screen to avoid dealing with the political issues. I usually take it with a grain of salt.

Orion said:

When people call others who criticize Israel anti-semites, it's just a smoke screen to avoid dealing with the political issues. I usually take it with a grain of salt.

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AGAIN the OP:

"....The newest form of Bigotry is to claim that I and others who generally support Israel argue that "anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite."
This is a bald-faced Lie. I always criticize specific Israeli policies, Israeli leaders, and Israeli actions.
Most Israelis criticize specific policies.
Israel is among the most self-critical countries in the world....

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mbig said:

It's Not a Law..... obviously.... but it's a start.
Or do you want to be argumentative without even reading/challenging any of those criteria?
Too much time to devote to a mere post?
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I've read them all. I'm a fast reader.
I don't care to challenge most of them.
I don't think anyone rational would have any problem with "depicting jews as hook-nosed agents of Satan equals anti-semitism". :lol:

Okay, here's one that seems mildly questionable, since you insist:

"12. Blaming Israel for the problems of the world and exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs."

It seems that opinions on the extent of Israel's "influence on world affairs" would vary.
It seems that if someone felt Israel had little influence on world affairs, whereas someone else felt it had quite a bit of influence on world affairs, person number two would be, according to this article, displaying "anti-semitism".

Frankly, I don't see it.

1069 said:

I've read them all. I'm a fast reader.
I don't care to challenge most of them.
I don't think anyone rational would have any problem with "depicting jews as hook-nosed agents of Satan equals anti-semitism". :lol:

Okay, here's one that seems mildly questionable, since you insist:

"12. Blaming Israel for the problems of the world and exaggerating the influence of the Jewish state on world affairs. "

It seems that opinions on the extent of Israel's "influence on world affairs" would vary.
It seems that if someone felt Israel had little influence on world affairs, whereas someone else felt it had quite a bit of influence on world affairs, person number two would be, according to this article, displaying "anti-semitism".

Frankly, I don't see it.

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You present the two choices AS IF the charge of Jews running the world wasn't a Staple of anti-semitism for 100 years.
AS IF they are equal and mere opinions. They're Not.
See ie, 'Protocols of the elders of Zion', 'Jewish Bankers' (Now 'Zionist Bankers'), etc.

Nice try though.
And I guess you agree/don't have that much problem with the other 23 for and against.
And that they Are decent guidelines.
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