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A G-dless claim to the Jewish land

you said:
ב"ה
Again! With no G-d that historical right is an immoral one. And their claim for everything is right.
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Says you. The United Nations wisely thought otherwise.
 
mbig said:
You just admitted/agreed to Two states.
and You seem to move quite 'easily'/Disingenuously between Bibical non-entitlment to political support of the Palestinians.

That's why we see this ilk at things like Ahmadinjihad's Holocaust denial conferences.
Any old anti-Israelism will do to show they are Holier than thou/Land is beneath them. (it should only be the other way around!)
Like this Perverse string.ב"ה

ב"ה
No!!!!!!!!!!!
With no G-d =(no claim) there is a one state solution for the Palestinians.


OK, so let's play politics since Genesis is Crap.

Both peoples got states (the Palestinians 2 if you include 'Jordan'/70%), but Palestine was rejected by the Arabs.
Reoffered several times.
So what's your problem. Zionists agreed to "Palestine'" while Arabs and Ultra-orthodox wack jobs did not.
Genocide Genociders!
Maybe do a protest/clear your conscience, "Masada II: We're guilty".
-
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ב"ה
No!!!!!!!!!!!
With no G-d =(no claim) there is a one state solution for the Palestinians.
 
you said:
ב"ה
No!!!!!!!!!!! With no G-d =(no claim) there is a one state solution for the Palestinians.
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החוצה

Hishtagata? You're going to lecture Israelis on identity? I suggest you pander your archaic fundamentalism elsewhere.

History, religion, and culture are all valid components of identity. One component here is not more important than the others nor greater than the whole.
 
Tashah said:
Despite your insistence on a sole religious rationale, the Jewish people possess both historical and cultural ties to their homeland.
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So do the Palestinians.

That argument doesn't really work. I support the Zionist because he has that land now, he has established a viable Democracy in the Middle East and he is a friend of ours in a region dominated mostly by enemies and the only solution the Arabs truly want is the death of the Jewish people and the isolation of the Jews in the Middle East, hence there public and state policy towards Jews (the elected Hamas and Hezbollah governments for starters). Of course we cannot allow such a tragedy to re-occur as we did in the 30's and 40's.

They only want a two state solution as a second best option, otherwise they'd have you out on the streets in no time and there would be nothing to stop them if it wasnt for Western support.

I dont care about Jewish claims to land through culture and history.

Infact, i think they obtained there homeland in a more honourable way and thus have greater rights to there nation. Through a fair contest of war in which they arose victorious.

So putting aside claims that Jews believe Israel is there's because the Torah said so, i believe they gained there land through fair measures. This is why, with our without religion, the Jew has every claim to Israel.
 
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kaya'08 said:
Infact, i think they obtained there homeland in a more honourable way and thus have greater rights to there nation. Through a fair contest of war in which they arose victorious.
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Jews legally regained their homeland via UN Resolution 181 in 1947.
 
Tashah said:
החוצה

Hishtagata? You're going to lecture Israelis on identity? I suggest you pander your archaic fundamentalism elsewhere.

History, religion, and culture are all valid components of identity. One component here is not more important than the others nor greater than the whole.
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ב"ה
Lord Balfour I his introduction to Zionism realized how those components are interrelated with religion and can’t be extrapolated from one another.
Sure they are valid components but their validities are profoundly interdependent.
 
you said:
ב"ה
Lord Balfour I his introduction to Zionism realized how those components are interrelated with religion and can’t be extrapolated from one another. Sure they are valid components but their validities are profoundly interdependent.
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Religion, history, and culture all contribute to an identity collective as do language, customs, and ethnic traditions.
 
Tashah said:
Jews legally regained their homeland via UN Resolution 181 in 1947.
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It doesn't matter what resolution or mandate the UN passes because quiet simply the UN is irrelevant.
Legally or not, the Jews gained Israel through conflict. I think that's a more than fair way.

Clearly the Zionist movement was fuelled because of the second class treatment the Palestinians imposed on Jews at that time, its no surprise the outcome was what it was. They only have themselves to blame.
 
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you said:
B”H
A G-dless claim to the Jewish land
For years, the Lubavitcher Rebbe our Moshiach spoke with contempt of those who absurdly remove G-d from the Jewish claim to the land, demanding that our true, eternal ownership be pointed out in The Bible.
Hence the only way to eliminate international pressure is to voice the only right Israel has.
Israel by denouncing its religious values has no claim.
It is the Israeli atheistic claim to a religiously recognized piece of land which really confuses spectators and in turn drives world opinion against Israel.
Secular Zionism sees the Bible as a mere historical document, striped of all spiritual values.
But with no g-d to bequeath the land Jews of the bible would appear to be a blood thirsty nation imposing themselves upon the land’s indigenous nations.
That seems to be the case today.
We don’t G-d forbid deny Israel’s right to settle the land
But one could understand the contempt with which Israel is held in the west.
Israel is attempting to claim land but at the same time in absolute denial of the only right she has.
The only approval given to Israel could only be based on religion.
Without religion Israel has no prerogative to claim sovereignty in any part of the land- let alone “Eretz Yisroel Hashlema! (the greater Israel).
Israel is in denial of the only approval it could have.
Lord Balfour in his introduction to Zionism clearly bases the Jewish prerogative on religion and no doubt so did those who voted for Israel in 1948.
However immoral Arab strategy is Israel will always be wrong since she is audibly in denial of her only right!
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I disagree with that view. If Israel doesn't have a right to its land, then most surrounding Muslim countries don't either, as most of them, exactly like Israel, were also carved out of what was the defunct Ottoman Empire the same way Israel was. Israel has just as much de facto right to exist as those Muslim countries that were also carved out of the defunct Ottoman Empire.

However, since Israel was conquered via jihad in the latter part of the 7th century by the Dar al Islam, the global Muslim ummah views Israel as “fay territory” or, in other words, as booty to be governed by Islamic law only, as all Muslims are inculcated to believe that land once conquered by Islam must forever remain under Islamic rule, which is also why OBL and many other Muslims as well also advocate the Islamic reconquista of Al Andalus (Spain).
 
Tashah said:
Religion, history, and culture all contribute to an identity collective as do language, customs, and ethnic traditions.
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ב"ה
Very good that’s all I’m saying
With out G-d= (religion) all components of our identity just fall apart.
Most nations don’t need an ideology to claim geographical right. Usually the geographical localization of a nation speaks for it self and creates an identity. Take the Kurds, Albanians, Scots, the, alleged, Palestinians and Any other group of people seeking independence. We, on the other hand, are profoundly different.
Being outsiders for much of history we lose that geographical virtue that others have. Hence; our geographical right is dependent, from the very beginning, on ideology. And in order to impose sovereignty alien to the indigenous nations that ideology had better be crystal clear.
Dogmatic Statements such as “we are here and that’s the reality’’ or “we exist and the Arabs had better get used to it”, don’t really help the situation and prove inflammatory. It only helps if you can explain your motivating philosophy. And to claim the holly land (as it is known in the west) with an atheistic, historical, right just isn’t enough.
 
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kaya'08 said:
It doesn't matter what resolution or mandate the UN passes because quiet simply the UN is irrelevant.
Legally or not, the Jews gained Israel through conflict. I think that's a more than fair way.

Clearly the Zionist movement was fuelled because of the second class treatment the Palestinians imposed on Jews at that time, its no surprise the outcome was what it was. They only have themselves to blame.
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And if they lose it through conflict is it just as fair?
 
Karl Rove said:
I disagree with that view. If Israel doesn't have a right to its land, then most surrounding Muslim countries don't either, as most of them, exactly like Israel, were also carved out of what was the defunct Ottoman Empire the same way Israel was. Israel has just as much de facto right to exist as those Muslim countries that were also carved out of the defunct Ottoman Empire.

However, since Israel was conquered via jihad in the latter part of the 7th century by the Dar al Islam, the global Muslim ummah views Israel as “fay territory” or, in other words, as booty to be governed by Islamic law only, as all Muslims are inculcated to believe that land once conquered by Islam must forever remain under Islamic rule, which is also why OBL and many other Muslims as well also advocate the Islamic reconquista of Al Andalus (Spain).
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The land was viewed as Islamic for much of history true it has undergone different nationalities but all were Islamic .it has always been the geographical centre of Islam’s powers’. We are pretentiously introducing something absolutely alien.
 
you said:
it has always been the geographical centre of Islam’s powers’.
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Bulldookey. Makkah is the religious and geographical center of Islam.

you said:
We are pretentiously introducing something absolutely alien.
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Bulldookey. Jews have been living in the Levant for 3000 years.
 
you said:
The land was viewed as Islamic for much of history true it has undergone different nationalities but all were Islamic
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You are trying toclaim, now, that the aforementioned Hittites, Jebusites et al were Isamic?
:doh


you said:
.it has always been the geographical centre of Islam’s powers’.
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By whom? Most knowledgeable people would say Mecca.




you said:
We are pretentiously introducing something absolutely alien.
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Have you been imagining this for long? If Jews are alien to this land, how do archaeologists keep finding ancient Jewish artifacts and ruins?

Do you just make things up as you go?
 
Gardener said:
By whom? Most knowledgeable people would say Mecca.
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Correction: All knowledgeable people.
Have you been imagining this for long? If Jews are alien to this land, how do archaeologists keep finding ancient Jewish artifacts and ruins?

Do you just make things up as you go?
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Or he has a 'mentor' who does that.

It's always one of the two.
 
kaya'08 said:
They only want a two state solution as a second best option...
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I disagree. They only want a two state solution as a step to the ultimate destruction of Israel. Indeed, the so-called peace process is nothing but a political ploy, as any so-called Palestinian that agrees to peace with Israel will be slaughtered, in the same way Anwar Sadat was slaughtered.

As a matter of fact, it was the same reason that Arafat refused a state in 2000. Arafat was many things including a terrorist, but he wasn't a fool. Indeed, for any Muslim to make peace with Israel and with Jewish kafirs at that, would be blasphemous. That Muslim would be signing his own death warrant and would become a dead man walking.
 
Apocalypse said:
Or he has a 'mentor' who does that.

.
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I'm reminded of all the hate sites people reference to validate their points of view like one in a different thread where a page from a group dedicated to the destruction of israel, and whose members harbor terrorists and shout "death to Jews" at their so called symposiums was used to validate certain claims.

I think most people mentor themselves when it comes to the internet, though. Their internet exploration takes the form of confirming their preexisting views, and the stronger such views, the more willingly do they accept without question.
 
Tashah said:
Bulldookey. Makkah is the religious and geographical center of Islam.


Bulldookey. Jews have been living in the Levant for 3000 years.
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1. True there has been Jewish presence in the holly land but it has been outnumbered by Islamic inhabitants and sovereigns for much of the holly land’s history. That is not enough to claim Israeli sovereignty.
2. I don’t mean the spiritual centre. I meant that it is geographically in the middle of all Islamic powers, it is literally Islam’s back yard and to claim it you had better have a bloody good reason.
 
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There is so much about the Israeli quest that I do not understand. Not really having a dog in the fight all I know is what I watch on TV and have read in the old testament. I should have studied it more but I just have all I can handle wading through the world I live in.

I understand that the jews escaped slavery from the Pharoah. But where did the jews come from before they were taken into captivity? They had to come from somewhere. I know not where. Please adivise.

I can get passed all the "parting of the seas/pillar of fire" bull****, understanding that is how people wrote back in those days. I can see how they escaped, perhaps, utitizing low tide at the Sea of Reeds and the pillar of fire being the lamp usually in front of the night travellers, being placed in the rear, instead to fool their persuers.

Then the old testament I read spoke of generations of Israelites brutally and visiously taking what they considered to be their holy ordained, or as the thread calls it, "G-d", place in the world. I can also understand how centuries of being on the "recieving end" the Arabs have becomed conditioned to hate the Israelite.

I also understand how a few wars between then and now and a few global agreements have finally decreed the land to Israel. I'm cool with that.

As I said, there is so much I do not understand. I probably have no right to an opinion on a subject I am so un-informed about. But I confess this hoping to understand. Anyone willing, please feel free to educate me.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
And if they lose it through conflict is it just as fair?
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You mean the way Palestinians lost it? Life isnt fair, Tammerlain.
It all depends how the war is carried out. Hitlers war was cowardly and barbaric. He had no historical claim to the land he took, and no real economical or political claim apart from the crap he made up.
If the Jews currently systematically killed and opressed Palestinians, and they rose up and took Israel, then yes, it is fair. How did your current homeland come about, and are you willing to hand it back?
 
Karl Rove said:
I disagree. They only want a two state solution as a step to the ultimate destruction of Israel. Indeed, the so-called peace process is nothing but a political ploy, as any so-called Palestinian that agrees to peace with Israel will be slaughtered, in the same way Anwar Sadat was slaughtered.
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This is more or less what i said. They are only settling for second best because of the Western powers.
If they had there way they would pillage and destroy the Jews and Israel with it.

Maybe a peace deal is exactly that in disguise; a secret agenda, as you have stated. But im not willing to debate conspiracy theories because they have no substance in real life.
 
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Captain America said:
Pharoah. But where did the jews come from before they were taken into captivity? They had to come from somewhere. I know not where. Please adivise.
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Archaeological evidence suggests they branched off from Canaanites 3300+ years ago.


Captain America said:
I can also understand how centuries of being on the "recieving end" the Arabs have becomed conditioned to hate the Israelite.
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WHAT Arabs? There were no Arabs involved in the biblical conflicts. If you are talking about times a couple of millenium closer in time to that you reference, though, it is Jews who have been at the receiving end vis a vis Arabs, and not the other way around.
 
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you said:
The land was viewed as Islamic for much of history true it has undergone different nationalities but all were Islamic .it has always been the geographical centre of Islam’s powers’. We are pretentiously introducing something absolutely alien.
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Unless you are a weak pathetic dhimmi that accepts the superiority and supremacy of Islam and Islamic law, which is something I reject and denounce totally as it is antithetical to everything I believe in and stand for, then you are wrong. Islam is a very primitive, violent, and barbaric ideology that calls for the subjugation of the world, and it deserves nothing whatsoever, as it is an abomination.
 
Captain America said:
There is so much about the Israeli quest that I do not understand. Not really having a dog in the fight all I know is what I watch on TV and have read in the old testament. I should have studied it more but I just have all I can handle wading through the world I live in.

I understand that the jews escaped slavery from the Pharoah. But where did the jews come from before they were taken into captivity? They had to come from somewhere. I know not where. Please adivise.

I can get passed all the "parting of the seas/pillar of fire" bull****, understanding that is how people wrote back in those days. I can see how they escaped, perhaps, utitizing low tide at the Sea of Reeds and the pillar of fire being the lamp usually in front of the night travellers, being placed in the rear, instead to fool their persuers.

Then the old testament I read spoke of generations of Israelites brutally and visiously taking what they considered to be their holy ordained, or as the thread calls it, "G-d", place in the world. I can also understand how centuries of being on the "recieving end" the Arabs have becomed conditioned to hate the Israelite.

I also understand how a few wars between then and now and a few global agreements have finally decreed the land to Israel. I'm cool with that.

As I said, there is so much I do not understand. I probably have no right to an opinion on a subject I am so un-informed about. But I confess this hoping to understand. Anyone willing, please feel free to educate me.
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If one would think that Jews do have a claim to the land what should it be based on?
please just give a logical opinion based on what you do know
 
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Gardener said:
WHAT Arabs? There were no Arabs involved in the biblical conflicts. If you are talking about times a couple of millenium closer in time to that you reference, though, it is Jews who have been at the receiving end vis a vis Arabs, and not the other way around.
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My apologies. I refer loosly to the people the Israelites slaughtered in the old testament as "Arabs" for lack of a better understanding. In short, I meant the people in that region that is said in the old testament as those that that the Isrealites invaded and slaughtered. To me, that's pretty much being on the "receiving" end. But no doubt, the Israelites too, have been on the "recieving end" at historic points in time. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. I was merely referring to the generations post escape from Egypt. They were a very vicious and barbaric bunch if we are to believe the bible, no?
 
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