#3 Creation of the 1948 Refugees.

creation said:

The surrounding arab nations took on lots of refugees, spent billions of dollars and the blood of their citizens in their name.

I dont think you can ask for more.

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creation said:

The arab states Created No Refugees but did indeed suffer from it.
The palestinians did indeed refuse partition, as anyone else would have done.

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"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, Imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and Threw them into Prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The ARAB States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did Not Recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is Regrettable".

- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, March 1976
...

"The Arab streets are Curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."

- London Times, May 5, 1948


"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as Renegades."

- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948


"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."

- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949


"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa."

- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25


The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine.....

- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31



I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the Direct Consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem,

Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the Official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, Beirut, Daily Telegraph, Sept 6, 1948



The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.

-Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949 (recently cited by Dereez)



We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.

- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."

- Jordan daily Ad Difaa, Sept 6, 1954


"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."

- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948


"[The Arabs of Haifa] fled in spite of the fact that the Jewish authorities Guaranteed their Safety and rights as citizens of Israel."

- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949



"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did."

- Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee,- UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14


"the military and civil authorities and the Jewish representative expressed their profound Regret at this grave decision [to evacuate]. The [Jewish] Mayor of Haifa made a passionate appeal to the delegation to reconsider its decision"

- The Arab National Committee of Haifa/Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, Schechtman, 1963


"The existence of these refugees is a Direct Result of the Arab States' Opposition to the partition plan and the reconstitution of the State of Israel. The Arab states adopted this policy unanimously, and the responsibility of its results, therefore is theirs.
...The flight of Arabs from the territory allotted by the UN for the Jewish state began immediately after the General Assembly decision at the end of November 1947. This wave of emigration, which lasted several weeks, comprised some 30,000 people, chiefly well-to-do-families."

- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948


"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave...
We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave...
We have rendered them dispossessed...
We have accustomed them to begging...
We have participated in lowering their moral and social level...
Then We exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of Political purposes..."

- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war


"As early as the first months of 1948 the Arab League issued orders exhorting the people to seek a temporary refuge in neighboring countries, later to return to their abodes in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and obtain their share of abandoned Jewish property."

- bulletin of The Research Group for European Migration Problems, 1957


One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as Conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.

Commentary Magazine -- January 2000


And many more at: Refugees, The Palestinian Refugees - The Peace FAQ

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Laila said:

I blame Arabs and International community more than Israel and Palestinians for this mess.

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Everyone knows the Jewish version and the Arab version.
But there is a third side, that of those who lived there and still do- the Israeli Arabs....."
Misinformation surrounds the story of 1948....."
The question is: why did Arabs flee the area that became Israel? After all, the ones who remained in their homes still live there today and prosper. The fact is that the Arab world warned the Palestinians against staying with the Jews.

"...Many Palestinians trusted these Arab leaders and left as Instructed. Those who had lived with Jews for a long time were Not as easily convinced of the danger, and these Arabs stayed home. Among them was MY family, which saw cars traveling the area. The cars contained Jews. They reassured Arabs that they would Not be Harmed. Thus, we had a situation where Jews begged Arabs to stay and live with them, while Arabs from foreign countries told them to leave right away.

"....Ask yourself why Jordan or Egypt or Syria never gave the Palestinians a country? If I hear another non-Palestinian, especially an American Muslim, repeat the phrase "over 50 years of the Zionist occupation," I'm going to Burst. Can no one actually read history? It’s not ancient history, just 1948-1967. Who had that land? Even if Arabs want Palestinians to have "all" the land, this is no excuse for denying them an independent state. And yet, we blame Israel!
[.......]
Let's go to the refugees. Arab governments first used scare tactics, and then took whatever they could get from the United States and Israel. Finally, They stuck Palestinians in camps with deplorable living conditions. Why didn't they leave them alone in their homes? Why promise them refuge and reward them with nothing more than Prison camps? And, most of all, why didn't they provide Palestinians with homes in the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights when Arabs had control over them?
[........]
As a Palestinian, I ask the world to please stop Exploiting our issue...."
To the average Arab citizen, stop crying Crocodile tears for us. To the Arab and Islamic governments, fix your own problems. Do not use our misery to blind your subjects to domestic problems. Are you afraid that the people will wise up, and stop hating Israel, and turn on you? You, who have Condoned so much Hatred, may one day Pay the price. You've created monsters, and you won't be able to handle them. Worry about creating jobs for your own poor people and educating the children, and leave us alone. In short, to all those invested in driving our children to Die, please, stay away from us.

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mbig said:

That would, AGAIN, put you well outside even a centrist Palestinian version of History.

Really, these opinions of yours are pulled fom a hat and, as I said, beyond even that of the Leftist/Islamist/Most extreme Palestinian version, and WAY beyond a centrist/Reality based one.

Let's look at some Mainly Arab/Palestinian Contemporary opinion on this.. with some thrown in from Mainstraem prss like Time, The Economist, London Times, etc.

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Mira said:

There are different versions and more details to how the Palestinians left, but that is Not the question.

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mbig said:

That IS the question of This string. "Creation of.."
Itself provoked by some outlandish statements about the responsibility for such.
I don't need re-definition of my String topic. Thanks.

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creation said:

"It is not at all clear, as maintained by a conventional Israeli myth, that the Palestinian exodus was encouraged by the Arab States and by local (Palestinian) leaders. Benny Morris, (historian, Ben- Gurion University) found no evidence to show ‘that either the leaders of the Arab States or the Mufti ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus’. Indeed, Morris found evidence to the effect that the local Arab leadership and militia commanders discouraged flight, and Arab radio stations issued calls to the Palestinians to stay put, and even to return to their homes if they had already left. True, there were more than a few cases where the local commanders ordered the evacuation of villages. But these seem to have been tactical decisions taken under very specific military conditions; they did not respond to an overall stategy either of the local Palestinian leaders or of the Arab States."

(Shlomo Ben-Ami, SCARS OF WAR, WOUNDS OF PEACE, Oxford University Press, 2006, p. 43)

Scars of war, wounds of peace: the ... - Google Books

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mbig said:

So you're claiming this one Paragraph (of Ami citing OUTDATED Morris!) refutes the Statements of all those Arab/Palestinion leaders; including the Current Palestinian PM?
:^)
Revisionists wil debate/fudge as they please but I posted the Current Palestinian PM! (30 years before he was)...
and Contemporary TO the time:
Syrian PM,
Head of the Arab High Committe/Offiical Leadership of the Palestinians,
Iraqi Prime Minister
Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the Official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs
Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee
The Arab National Committee of Haifa/Arab League,
ad-Difaa
London Times
Falastin
Time
The Economist
etc.

AND, also untouched, an artice BY a current Israeli Arab who herself was there at the time and wrote an article about it! Pre and Personally-refuting any 60 year later speculation by pundits.

Not that your bitsy paragraph even adresses your Other also wrong assertion that Arab leaders couldn't have done more. etc!
-

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2.How did they become refugees?



Like all refugees, the Palestinians left their homes out of fear for their safety due to the military conflict. Many fled due to direct military assaults on their towns and villages; others were forcibly expelled by Zionist forces. Massacres of Palestinian civilians created an atmosphere of fear that understandably caused many Palestinians to seek safety elsewhere. The most famous massacre occurred in Deir Yassin (not far from what is now Israel’s Holocaust Memorial) where, by most conservative estimates, Jews murdered more than 100 Palestinian men, women and children.[3]



Israelis understandably have a difficult time accepting that their independence came at the expense of the indigenous Palestinians, who were dispossessed of their homeland and property. Consequently, Israel perpetuates a number of mythologies with respect to the causes of the Palestinian refugee crisis, including: Arab armies ordered the Palestinian refugees to flee; Arab radio broadcasts ordered the Palestinians to leave; Palestinians do not originally come from Palestine, and that the refugee crisis was the result of a war started by Arabs (even though the New York Times documents thousands of Palestinian refugees prior to any Arab invasion). These mythologies have been debunked not only by newspaper reports, UN documents and Palestinian sources, but also by Israeli historians such as Ilan Pappé and Benny Morris.

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Abu Mazen's speech
at the meeting of the PLO's Palestinian Central Council,
9 September 2000


We went to Camp David carrying our well-known positions, positions that were adopted by several of our legislative bodies. The positions we adopted are, in our point of view, the minimum that we can accept. They are positions that are based on United Nations Resolutions 242, 338 and 194. They are based on agreements signed between the Israelis and us, they are based on Israeli documents concerning the 1948 nakba (catastrophe) and the forced expulsion of Palestinians from their homes, and they are based on UN Security Council resolutions dealing with Jerusalem and Jewish settle

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creation said:

Is this the same Abu Mazen who's organisation states that;


:: Negotiations Affairs Department ::

??

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creation said:

"It is not at all clear, as maintained by a conventional Israeli myth, that the Palestinian exodus was encouraged by the Arab States and by local (Palestinian) leaders. Benny Morris, (historian, Ben- Gurion University) found no evidence to show ‘that either the leaders of the Arab States or the Mufti ordered or directly encouraged the mass exodus’.
Indeed, Morris found ......

(Shlomo Ben-Ami, SCARS OF WAR, WOUNDS OF PEACE, Oxford University Press, 2006, p. 43)

Scars of war, wounds of peace: the ... - Google Books

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Benny Morris:

Madam, - Israel-Haters are fond of citing - and more often, Mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections.

The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In Defiance of the will of the International community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181),
They launched Hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps Destroying that community.
But they Lost; and one of the RESULTS was the Displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.

It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in Dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders Advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to STAY, to no avail.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of War (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of Victorious Arab Invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as 2/3's of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country
(which is the usual definition of a refugee)
- was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the RESULT of a national conflict and a WAR, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was NO Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing"....."

[..........]
Prof Benny Morris, Li-On, Israel.
Israel News: Israel and the Palestinians - according to Benny Morris

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It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in Dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders Advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to STAY, to no avail.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of War (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of Victorious Arab Invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

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creation said:

from your own link;

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Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of War (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of Victorious Arab Invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as 2/3's of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country
(which is the usual definition of a refugee)
- was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the RESULT of a national conflict and a WAR, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was NO Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing"....."

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heres more from benny;

Making Israel - Google Books

try page 12 regarding the 50/60 000 expelled from Lydda and Ramle.

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As for Abbas, youve presented a misleading account of what he said in the 70s to criticise his Arab brethren which is demonstrated by his later statements.

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Ill deal with all the rest of your FrontPage magazone stuff once you can be honest about Abbas and Benny Morris.

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mbig said:

You mean a TRUNCATED version of my link (I DID NOT LEAVE OUT) which doesn't show the whole Benny opinion.
Something you Deceptively present AS IF you are revealing more material I left out.
But in fact Did Include as part of his WHOLE opinion about the 1948 refugeees and how they came about.. which you cut off.
Like the Conclusion ofit all

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Again:

Which Refutes your statements that I quoted in the OP.
(since you agree to use this link)
"My link" indeed!

(and which also bolsters 'Turbeaux's opinion about a religous conflict as much as a land one)

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You still haven't haven't dealt with Benny's later Summary I posted; Post-dating your two citations of him.

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You continue to Lie/Deceive (because you can't deal with the fact) that The NAD-PLO is NOT the same as Abbas' statement 30 years earlier.. Mixing and Matching th two.
What the NAD-PLO has on it's website now is NOT a refutation of what he said then... Nor of Many other Arab Leaders quoted.

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the 1948 nakba (catastrophe) and the forced expulsion of Palestinians from their homes

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Indeed, You Haven't even dealt with a Single quote I presented, much less the article.
Your only 'answer' was an attempt at deception, that the NAD-PLO's website somehow refutes what Abbas said before the polished propaganda exist that do now on sites LIKE the NAD-PLO-- That's what was so inappropriate/Deceptive for you to use/meld the word "same". Which it never was.

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And of course, even when you Have dealt forthrightly with the Abbas quote (which you Can't beause it alone Busts your previous assertions).. theres at least a dozen more by Credible people and publications... many Arab/Palestinian.
-

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creation said:

No I meant what I say, from your own link;

No Arab radio broadcasts

700,000 fled or expelled.

From Benny's book in 2007 50/60 000 expelled from Lydda and Ramla. Do you think Benny's changed his opinion between 2007 and 2008?

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Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of War (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of Victorious Arab Invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as 2/3's of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country
(which is the usual definition of a refugee)
- was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the RESULT of a national conflict and a WAR, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was NO Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing"....."

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You mean to refute my quote about creating refugees, yet even your own links cant do that. This even from
Benny Morris, who we both know is no friend of the Palestinians and who blames the Palestinians and the Arabs for the start of the war.

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And you continue to peddle your misleading quotes from sites that dont even offer the actual text in full.

It is quite unlikely that Abu Mazen would write one thing 30 years ago, then, decades later be elected to lead the PLO, to fight for refugees rights and have his own organisation speak of matters to which he believes in a contrasting view.

Further you fail to explain why, if your interpretation is not entirely mis-leading, then does Abu Mazen in his latest speeches say such things as;

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Why on earth would I deal with your other nonsense from propaganda sites when theres so much other nonsense to be dealt with first?

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mbig said:

The book was PUBLISHED in 2007, meaning it was probably written earlier.. perhaps over several years.

My letter was Real Time 2008.

And again his Ultimate conclusion was CONTRARY to yours, despite the fact there were SOME acts of expulsion, this was NOT the basic cause for the Refugees.

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Yes, slither and slide.. you stand rebutted by Morris.

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Again, Morris says MOST of the refugees were created by "the flail of War".. "[War] Launched by Arabs Themselves" "In defiance of 181".

Alas, Morris may no longer be, but is probably still the most quoted Historian by Palestinian, Leftist, and Anti-semite websites (and you too).. using some of his OLD refuted materal Like "Birth of...".

So saying the the man who has now come clean due to refutation and Israeli document realease, "is no friend of the palestinians" is even more revisionist than the revisionists themselves.
And his new position therefore even more cogent as he didn't have a pro-Israel position/bias to start with.. only new information changed his mind.
In fact, you're still up in the air yorself, quoting his old stuff, but Porked by his latest!

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:^)

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And yet YOU pedal a much Shorter, Completley Unlinked and uncontexted quote in rebuttal!
Overlooked, or ultimate Hypocrisy?
And even That Only after Dishonestly trying to refute an Abbas quote with the the NAD-PLO Site^$^%$^%^#!, until I pointed out how Ridicuous that was.
At least I got you off that Inapt/intentionally deceiving comparison.

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I never expected to to directly address them.
They Gut your Absurd/Laughable assertions.

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At least they're not Lies (as your Morris or Abbas intentional deceptions above) as one has to have knowledge in the first place and then intentioanally deceive. Knowledge you clearly never had.

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And why you can make those absurd claims in the first place.
Many Arabs and palestinians lay alot of blame at the other Arab states doorstep.. precisely because quotes like I posted are true.

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creation said:

Yes, it was published in 2007, the article was actually written much earlier. Yet Benny has not changed it, in fact he included it in a book of various other historians deliberately.

Your letter was 2008. So do you think he changed his opinion between 2007 and 2008? Answer the question please for once.

He blames the Arabs for the war but the Israelis for the expulsions, what more do you want? Do you want some more analysis into the causes and history behind the war?

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Indeed,the flail of war, like the 50/60000 expelled from Ramla and Lydda.

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Indeed Morris is often quoted, for the simple reason that Israelis won’t believe Arab historians. Morris is not my most quoted historian, please mbig, you know this already. Avi Shlaim and Finkelstein are.

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Unlinked? Uncontexted?
See post #9. If you think he didn’t make this speech please say why.
My use of the NAD-PLO site completely refutes your weak and indirect interpretation of Abbas’s 30 year old article. Why? Because it is quite unlikely that Abu Mazen would write one thing 30 years ago, then, decades later be elected to lead the PLO, to fight for refugees rights and have his own organisation speak of matters to which he believes in a contrasting view.

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But tell us mbig, is Abu Mazen a liar? Or is he telling the truth as you see it 30 years ago but now he is lying? Which is it?

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Try using some actual books from real historians first rather than websites with an axe to grind then maybe somebody will take you seriously.

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Where am I lying? What am I deceiving about? I simply ask you to explain with reference to your own interpretation the apparently contrasting view points of Abu Mazen over the years. Why is this so hard? Is it because youre useless at this sort of thing? At explaining events beyond your own delusions?

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They do indeed lay a lot of blame at Arabian doorsteps for the lack of support over the years as their lands are expropriated etc etc, but that doesn’t mean they jump in with your rubbish. Try doing some actual reading by actual Arabian historians, or even Israeli ones - whatever.

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mbig said:

He Blames "The Flail of War", That WAR "Launched by Arabs Themselves" for Most of the Refugees.
Just [Another] 100% Lie/decepetion by creation.
and Quoted several times just above.
Despicable.

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Above all, let me re-iterate, the refugee problem was caused by attacks by Jewish forces on Arab villages and towns and by the inhabitants fear of such attacks, compounded by expulsions, atrocities and rumours of atrocities – and by a crucial Israeli cabinet decision in June 1948 to bar a refugee return

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Out of 700,000! And he's not exactly a Likud member either.
LOL
Just keep posting/Emptily and embarrassingly last-wording and maybe you can obsure the facts.

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Incorrect .. and even THEY in turn Cite?source Morris' REFUTED/Recanted work as THEIR source... just as you/Your link did on the Last Page!!!!
Oh the Irony/Forgetfullness of just hours.

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Still wrong.,
NAD-PLO doesn't refute what Abbas said any more than what Likud current website could 'rebut' a Sharon quote yo the contrary of it's party line NOW.
How Ridiculous.
And how emptily and Dishonestly argumentative.

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The two statements aren't 100% in opposition and many politicians are reminded of their old quotes.
Ones made before the GAME had changed.
Alas.. I have them.
You don't.

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This is a message board, not a library.
Nonetheless, you're going to have to decide on Morris one way or the other.
I undertsand you have a large problem now. Just like the Thousands of arab, anti-Israel and anti--semitic sites which carry those old quotes. (of their so-called 'no friend'. His 'Birth of.." book, again, probably Thee most Cited work by the anti-Israel webbers)

On another board many of us came from (PF) it was Daily Morris by the anti-Israel contingent... UNTIL that letter and they like you, the "He was hardly a freind of the palestinainans".
Oooops.

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People often say truthful things AT THE TIME... and then DECADES later become politically invloved, conveniently forget or change them.
My quote at whole or in part exists on Many sites.. UNREBUTTED and UNRECANTED. And True.

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But YOU said the Arabs states couldn't have done more!
You knew NOTHING about the fact they in good measure Caused the Refugee problem and then treated them Poorly to boot.

100% Contrary to what you said, and I quoted in the OP.
That's why.

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"Whatever" being your concession after you're now at least Partially informed by me. Before that... we just have your 100% False/ignorant-of-the-fact statements I quoted.

And as I said and showed previous.. many of your statements are not only Wrong but Outlandish and Off the deep end. Beyond even the Leftist twits you cite and beyond even a one-sides narrative to complete fantasy.
Increasingly so as a matter of fact.

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Mira said:

There are different versions and more details to how the Palestinians left, but that is not the question.

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mbig said:

That IS the question of This string. "Creation of.."
Itself provoked by some outlandish statements about the responsibility for such.
I don't need re-definition of my String topic. Thanks.

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Mira said:

The fact that there are different versions and more details to how the Palestinians left is not the question that I'm trying to raise in the post.

Have you got anything to say about the rest of the post ?

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Mira said:

There are different versions and more details to how the Palestinians left, but that is not the question.

The question is, in any war, civilians are told to leave the battle zones but when the battle is over, the civilians come back. Why weren't the Palestinian refugees allowed to go back ?

Beside the neighbouring Arab countries, most of the people of Gaza (I think about 80%) are refugees from surrounding towns. Why were they not allowed to regain their homes and fields ?

It is an exaggeration that all the Arab countries that took Paelstinian refugees in have mistreadted them.

It was mainly Lebanon that mistreadted its refugees.
As you know, Lebanon has a very delicate balance between Christian and Muslim communities. 200,000 Muslim refugees in a country which at that time consisted of 2 million citizens (4 million today) would have broken that balance. The Christians never accepted to integrate those refugees into the Lebanese society.

The Christian Palestinians are a part of the Lebanese community. There is only one refugee camp for Christian Palestinains in Lebanon and that is Mar Elias. There are only about 1400 refugees in that camp.

The rest of the Christian Palestinians are not only part of the Lebanese community, but they are quite active in Political, cultural and economical domains. The notorious Boustany family is only one example among many others. The Boustanys even have their own village in Lebanon called D'bieh.

edit: You also need to remember that most of the Palestinian refugees are refugees within the Palestinain territories and NOT in neighbouring countries.

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mbig said:

First, that you acknoeledge 'versions' means your 'Joint History Panel' [ to decide a solution] has just one more problem of Scores to resolve.
Aint gonna happen.

Second, The War ended with a Truce, NOT Peace.

The States involved Were, and some Still are, At war with Israel!
Including said 'Palestine'.

Inviting Hostiles (who thought/still think of themselves as such as well) to return clearly wouldn't be/wouldn't have been/Isn't in the cards, nor expected.

Over the Years, there were some Indeed Some returns, I think as many as Tens of Thousands in a few traunches, but don't have a link now and won't/AM NOT making it an official claim until/unless I find the material.
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Second, The War ended with a Truce, NOT Peace.

The States involved Were, and some Still are, At war with Israel!
Including said 'Palestine'.

Inviting Hostiles (who thought/still think of themselves as such as well) to return clearly wouldn't be/wouldn't have been/Isn't in the cards, nor expected.

Over the Years, there were some Indeed Some returns, I think as many as Tens of Thousands in a few traunches, but don't have a link now and won't/AM NOT making it an official claim until/unless I find the material.

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Even if Israel is not the cause of the Arab refugee problem, didn't they do anything to compensate those people?

As a goodwill gesture during the Lausanne negotiations in 1949, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees prior to any discussion of the refugee question.
The Arab states, who had Refused even to negotiate face-to-face with the Israelis, turned down the offer because it implicitly recognized Israel's existence.

Despite this, on Humanitarian grounds Israel has since the 1950's allowed more than 50,000 refugees to return to Israel under a family reunification program, and between 1967 and 1993 allowed a further 75,000 to return to the West Bank or Gaza. Since the beginning of the Oslo process Israel has allowed another 90,000 Palestinians to gain residence in PA-controlled territory.

Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation from Israel's Custodian of Absentee Property. As of the end of 1993, a total of 14,692 claims had been filed, claims were settled with respect to more than 200,000 dunums of land, more than 10,000,000 NIS (New Israeli Sheckels) had been paid in compensation, and more than 54,000 dunums of Replacement Land had been given in compensation.
Israel has followed this generous policy despite the fact that not a single penny of compensation has ever been paid to any of the more than 500,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, who were forced by the Arab governments to abandon their homes, businesses and savings.

- Alexander Safian, PhD, CAMERA (The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)

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mbig said:

BUMP for ilia786 to understand Why and How there are "refugees".
Refugees are mostly because of the ARAB-STARTED 1948 War... and Arab requests to get out of the way while they prevented Israel and eliminated the Jews, NOT because the Jews: 'one religion demand throw out original residents'.

I have answered every point you brought up, indeed, I have created strings on every basic Myth of the conflict previously.
But nice to have a good reason to refresh all the basics for those joining in the last year etc.

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ilia786 said:

refugees had homes and lands before 1948 war yes or not?
if they had, they should be allowed to get back to their homes and lands after that war. if fact Israel didn't allow them to get back.

War is not the reason they lost their lands and homes. the reason is Israel! clear and simple

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