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Can anyone explain . . . (Israel)

OK Ill have a go.

Other places in the world are indeed worthy of scorn. More scorn indeed.

However these other places do not escape the scorn of the liberal west. The liberal west has been busy in protest against China re Tibet, Burma re its own Junta, South Africa re apartheid, the ex-chilean president Pinochet, Russian actions in Chechnya.

Obviously the liberal west protests Isreal, but in this case on the formal level their viewpoint also has the support and instigation even of the muslim world, who oppose Isreali actions and even Isreal itself. This makes for a louder cacophony.

But more importantly because Isreal/ Palestine is an international problem that has brought the region three wars and a devastating oil shock that conflict has far more significance - and thus its solving is that much important to the liberal west than say, events in Burma. Moreover, the related issue of western involvement in the middle east due to its instability which is related to the Isreal/ Palestine conflct is considered to have led directly to 9/11 and the subsequent global war on terror. Again another reason for liberals to be concerned.

Thank you for an interesting thread where views are asked for rather than assumed.
 
creation said:
OK Ill have a go.

Other places in the world are indeed worthy of scorn. More scorn indeed.

However these other places do not escape the scorn of the liberal west. The liberal west has been busy in protest against China re Tibet, Burma re its own Junta, South Africa re apartheid, the ex-chilean president Pinochet, Russian actions in Chechnya.

Obviously the liberal west protests Isreal, but in this case on the formal level their viewpoint also has the support and instigation even of the muslim world, who oppose Isreali actions and even Isreal itself. This makes for a louder cacophony.

But more importantly because Isreal/ Palestine is an international problem that has brought the region three wars and a devastating oil shock that conflict has far more significance - and thus its solving is that much important to the liberal west than say, events in Burma. Moreover, the related issue of western involvement in the middle east due to its instability which is related to the Isreal/ Palestine conflct is considered to have led directly to 9/11 and the subsequent global war on terror. Again another reason for liberals to be concerned.

Thank you for an interesting thread where views are asked for rather than assumed.
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Great analysis.
 
Thanks for the answer. :)

creation said:
OK Ill have a go.

Other places in the world are indeed worthy of scorn. More scorn indeed.
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Agreed.

However these other places do not escape the scorn of the liberal west. The liberal west has been busy in protest against China re Tibet, Burma re its own Junta, South Africa re apartheid, the ex-chilean president Pinochet, Russian actions in Chechnya.
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Nowhere near to the same degree, or persistence.


Obviously the liberal west protests Isreal, but in this case on the formal level their viewpoint also has the support and instigation even of the muslim world, who oppose Isreali actions and even Isreal itself. This makes for a louder cacophony.
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That's probably true, but it doesn't explain the anti-Israeli noise in many places around the world which don't involve Arab governments. Universities, for example.

But more importantly because Isreal/ Palestine is an international problem that has brought the region three wars and a devastating oil shock that conflict has far more significance - and thus its solving is that much important to the liberal west than say, events in Burma. Moreover, the related issue of western involvement in the middle east due to its instability which is related to the Isreal/ Palestine conflct is considered to have led directly to 9/11 and the subsequent global war on terror. Again another reason for liberals to be concerned.
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You're saying, then, that scorn for Israel is heightened because the conflict makes oil more expensive, or harder to get, or both?

That's interesting, because as a matter of focus, there's probably an amplification effect there.

My question, then, is why is it Israel which gets the scorn there, particularly in the West, which supposedly cherishes what Israel is -- a liberal democracy?

Plus, as far as the "human rights abuses," etc., which are the focus of so many college protests, they don't have anything to do with oil.
 
Apocalypse said:
Then what does it has to do with?
That's the question that Harshaw has brought up here.
Would you be kind enough to answer it?
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I think this is a Arab issue but because the Arabs are Muslims. The rest of the Muslim population support Palestinians by default just because we share the same faith. I mean, we have more in common with other Muslims than we do Jews to put it in simple terms. Its unheard of and would be beyond amazing if a leader of a Muslim country stood up in support of Israel not Palestinians.
Besides, politically. The Israel card is always a hit.

I don't think Europe's criticisms of Israel is based on any form of racism.
I mean if we look back to Israel's formation and beginning. It was Europe who was its main supporter, it was infact France who was Israel's primary military supplier not the US. Weapons and support internationally was given to them. Most European nations supported the resolution in the UN
If we look in more modern times, central Europe seems more Pro Israel but there is alot of anti semetism around.

The 'liberal left' have always focused on many things in the world and they have poured scorn on many countries and individuals including those in the Arab/Israeli conflict but because the conflict has more impact and wide reaching consequences. More attention is given to that than any other conflict

Perhaps we expect more from Israel and seem shocked when it doesn't meet our expectations.
I don't think many people see Israel as a liberal democracy on par with Europe imo.
Europe seemed to have rooted for Israel when it was the underdog after the Holocaust but soon after the image was of Israel oppressing and Palestinians being the victims
 
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Harshaw said:
Nowhere near to the same degree, or persistence.
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Thank you.

Absolutely.



That's probably true, but it doesn't explain the anti-Israeli noise in many places around the world which don't involve Arab governments. Universities, for example.
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Why not? Isreal as explained is a touch stone issue for the west for its wider significance. That significance makes it easier for, for example, university campaigns to spread all across academia. Academics would happily all want to boycott Burma too, but getting so many to sign on the campaign is far harder because the issue is far less pressing.


You're saying, then, that scorn for Israel is heightened because the conflict makes oil more expensive, or harder to get, or both?
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Yes. Couple that with the continuing occurance both of terrorism and international conflict and you can see why its importance to the liberal west is so heightened.

That's interesting, because as a matter of focus, there's probably an amplification effect there.
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Absolutely correct. Excellent point. Also, politics is often thought of as driven by a media echo chamber.

My question, then, is why is it Israel which gets the scorn there, particularly in the West, which supposedly cherishes what Israel is -- a liberal democracy?
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Good question, one which gets to the heart of why conservatives can never see the liberal point of view.

The non-liberal mindset considers that one should support a liberal democracy on that basis, that it should be cherished and supported because its a liberal democracy.

This however, is a mistake and here is why;

If I were to accuse a conservative of not really being a conservative because he doesnt support the actions of the Chilean Junta in creating a free market and ending state control of the chilean economy, then that conservative would be quite correct in telling me to shut my face because his conservatism doesnt require him to support right wing politics by any means.

Similarly, in South Africa, the white minority within their own political boundaries were in fact a liberal democracy. Did the liberals therefore support the South African government? Of course not and rightly so.

Similarly, India is the worlds biggest democracy, it has kept together despite holding countless different tribes and affiliated social groupings - yet India presumes to rule over a part of Kashmir with a muslim majority that wants no truck with it. Should the liberal west support this imposition? Of course not.

In ireland, the people of a famous liberal democracy was aiding and abetting terrorism in the north against a people who treated its minority as second class citizens. Should this have been supported by all liberals because they were/ are liberal democracy working against northern bigots? Of course not, though liberalism was highly split on that issue.

Thus the presence of liberal democracy or even right wing policies is not enough to guarantee the support of people of any persuasion - because in the end it is actions, not political organisation that counts.

Plus, as far as the "human rights abuses," etc., which are the focus of so many college protests, they don't have anything to do with oil.
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No they dont, but the effects of widespread political instability certainly does.
 
creation said:
Good question, one which gets to the heart of why conservatives can never see the liberal point of view.

The non-liberal mindset considers that one should support a liberal democracy on that basis, that it should be cherished and supported because its a liberal democracy.
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You have yet to express a liberal point of view or show any comprehension for liberalism's central tenets. One of these is an understanding of the tyranny of the majority, and your throwing in you lot with a vast majority as it persecutes a tiny minority shows you as completely incapable of promoting true liberalism.

You have chosen blind support of a group of Arabs who hold mass murderers in highest regard, who kill their wives and daughters while calling it "honor", who torture and kill homosexuals and who are motivated by ethnic hatred. You BELIEVE their every contrived Palywood fabrication over those who go about the business of building a viable socity where women occupy its highest ranks, where gay people can hold parades in their largest cities, and this despite how vastly, vastly outnumbered they are by the Arabs you supoport.

There are hundreds of millions of Arabs, the overwhelming majority holding racist views when it comes to Jews. There are well over a billion Muslims, again, with the very large majority holding racist views towards Jews. You have chosen to join them in their persecution rather than stand up for the rights of the tiny minority that are outnumbered by a thousand to one.

You, sir, are no liberal. A liberal understands the fallacy of the argumentum ad populum, understands the principle of the tyrany of the majority, and acts to PROTECT the tiny minority from persecution, not join in it.
 
Gardener said:
You have yet to express a liberal point of view or show any comprehension for liberalism's central tenets. One of these is an understanding of the tyranny of the majority, and your throwing in you lot with a vast majority as it persecutes a tiny minority shows you as completely incapable of promoting true liberalism.

You have chosen blind support of a group of Arabs who hold mass murderers in highest regard, who kill their wives and daughters while calling it "honor", who torture and kill homosexuals and who are motivated by ethnic hatred. You BELIEVE their every contrived Palywood fabrication over those who go about the business of building a viable socity where women occupy its highest ranks, where gay people can hold parades in their largest cities, and this despite how vastly, vastly outnumbered they are by the Arabs you supoport.

There are hundreds of millions of Arabs, the overwhelming majority holding racist views when it comes to Jews. There are well over a billion Muslims, again, with the very large majority holding racist views towards Jews. You have chosen to join them in their persecution rather than stand up for the rights of the tiny minority that are outnumbered by a thousand to one.

You, sir, are no liberal. A liberal understands the fallacy of the argumentum ad populum, understands the principle of the tyrany of the majority, and acts to PROTECT the tiny minority from persecution, not join in it.
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A liberal point of view would also be concerned about the Palestinian minority rights in Israel and espouse a two state solution.
 
windovervocalcords said:
A liberal point of view would also be concerned about the Palestinian minority rights in Israel and espouse a two state solution.
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I actually favor a three state solution, myself.
 
windovervocalcords said:
So they're blended Israel and Palestinian? I'm not sure what you'd propose.
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I don't know what's so hard to understand.

Israel as one state. Gaza as one state and what is currently called the west bank as one state.
 
Gardener said:
I don't know what's so hard to understand.

Israel as one state. Gaza as one state and what is currently called the west bank as one state.
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Where is Palestine? Gaza or the West Bank? What characterizes the third state solution as superior to a two state solution? How would this ensure security for all concerned?
 
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Apocalypse said:
Its location, perhaps.

6a00d83451bc4a69e2011571fcc12d970b-800wi


The Muslims have worked so hard in making one big Muslims continent when Israel showed up in the middle - and the rest is history.
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When you see it mapped out like that, it's actually kind of frightening.
 
windovervocalcords said:
Where is Palestine?
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where it has always been. It hasn't really moved.



windovervocalcords said:
Gaza or the West Bank?
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THese are two of the places where those calling themselves Palestinian live -- areas that are non contiguous.


windovervocalcords said:
What characterizes the third state solution as superior to a two state solution? How would this ensure security for all concerned?
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A two state solution attempts to create one state out of two areas that are not contiguous. This necessitates some really convoluted admininistrative as well as logistical solutions in order to be tenable. Especially considering how the west bank and Gaza have already distingiuished themselves politically, the three state solution strikes me as far more practical than the two.
 
Gardener said:
I actually favor a three state solution, myself.
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I believe the problem here is that both sides are not equally willing to compromise.

I don't think most palestinians would accept this as a final solution, but maybe a temporary one, to strengthen their own position. As has been seen before, extremist groups within are more than willing to use territorial concessions as platforms for attack into israeli cities and as political leverage to justify the need for further concessions (It's a very small area, with a dense population).
 
1. They flaunt International Law

2. They mistreat Palestinians living in Israel

3. The brutalize Palestinians living in the occupied territories.

4. Less than a year ago they killed 480 Palestinian children alone in response to rocket attacks that killed 8 Israelis over a two year span.

That's mainly it.

If you wish for examples of this I can post videos of them shooting handcuffed prisoners, shooting a child dead in his Father's arms while he was waiving a flag of surrender, throwing rocks at Palestinan school children, calling Obama a n345gger, or beating 90 year old men with clubs just for the hell of it...............and that's just for starters.
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
Apocalypse said:
Its location, perhaps.

6a00d83451bc4a69e2011571fcc12d970b-800wi


The Muslims have worked so hard in making one big Muslims continent when Israel showed up in the middle - and the rest is history.
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When you see it mapped out like that, it's actually kind of frightening.
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The dark green bits in Africa are wrong - some of those countries have an equal Christian / Muslim population or even (Ghana / Togo etc) have more Christians than Muslims. I've lived and worked in lots of parts of West Africa and from 1st hand experience can say the map is wrong.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
The dark green bits in Africa are wrong - some of those countries have an equal Christian / Muslim population or even (Ghana / Togo etc) have more Christians than Muslims. I've lived and worked in lots of parts of West Africa and from 1st hand experience can say the map is wrong.
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It's only wrong in a few pixels, you can see clearly that they haven't went into extreme details, but it's not like they've spilled green color all over the area and received this result either.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
The dark green bits in Africa are wrong - some of those countries have an equal Christian / Muslim population or even (Ghana / Togo etc) have more Christians than Muslims. I've lived and worked in lots of parts of West Africa and from 1st hand experience can say the map is wrong.
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Ethiopia is also majority Christian with a large Muslim population.
I agree, that map is not accurate.

If we will be colouring every country with Muslims in it then we may as well turn green most of the world.
 
World_Muslim_Population_Map.png

A huge difference.
 
Yes. There is a telling video out of drunken partying right wing Jewish kids just laughing it up for the camera.

You learn so much about the mentality of certain factions when they are free to speak in a relaxed atmosphere. Much of it comes from their Parents of course.

Israeli apologists have this pretense that they're soo much more civilized than Palestinians and are so very serious about racism and bigotry because of what was done to them in the Holocaust.

There were actually t-shirts being sold by Israeli soldiers that depicted a pregnant Palestinian women in the cross
hairs of a sniper rifle....and said something along the lines of "two for one".

This is the humor of hardcore right wing Israelis and they control much of the debate.
 
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dragondad said:
Yes. There is a telling video out of drunken partying right wing Jewish kids just laughing it up for the camera.

You learn so much about the mentality of certain factions when they are free to speak in a relaxed atmosphere. Much of it comes from their Parents of course.

Israeli apologists have this pretense that they're soo much more civilized than Palestinians and are so very serious about racism and bigotry because of what was done to them in the Holocaust.
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I've just learned so much about your mentality, that apparently you would take a video of a few Jewish kids (And I haven't seen this video yet) who call Obama a nigger, as a basis for a generalization of an entire nation - the total opposite from the Liberal thinking that separates individual actions from the collective.

You only do Israel good when you stay on the pro-Palestinian side, you and your disgusting generalizations. ;)
 
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