Harshaw

What do you mean, "how can we"? Why can't we?

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2001-2008: Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
2009: Dissent is the highest form of racism.

gree0232

Allright, pull it back in. I am not sure why you and Gardener, based on the posts above, seem to think it is OK to accuse the other side of irrationality and subterfuge whenever you are pressed. It is NOT a valid debate tactic.

Let's start out with a basic premise: Israel, like any other Nation on Earth, is not perfect.

The challenge then is to look at criticism and find out what is legitimate and what is not. For the most part, people do not come onto this forum without having put some thoughts into their opinions. As a result, when you find that the criticism particularly stinging, its probably because there is something to the criticism.

This is really about policy in the end. If there is valid criticism of a policy, and that criticism is simply dismissed as irrational, then the damage of bad policy continues until people rebel against it.

That being said, I ask you to look at one of your statements in which you are absolutely right: Israel does not deserve to be attacked simply because it exists.

However, Israel is not about to be attacked. After the 1972 War, which happened before many of the posters on this forum were even born, it became widely known that Israel had nuclear weapons. That effectively prevented Israel from being attacked by a monolithic Arab block. The Camp David Accord did politically what Israeli nuclear capacity did militarily; it split the Arab Camp into two separate and very unequal camps. The residual powers are:

1. Syria - Does anyone seriously believe that Syria is a military threat to Israel?

2. Iran - If it were to border Israel, it might have the capacity to do some damage (in reality, I doubt that). As it is, they are quite literally on the other side of the region with no capacity to project power beyond their immediate border areas.

The dispute with Iran is really about balance of power, or rather the lack thereof between the ME bookends. I would say there is plenty of room for compromise between the two current positions being advocated respectively -- perfect nuclear balance or perfect assymetry allowing one to attack the other with impunity.

3. Lebanon - Remains hostile, and they have valid reason for that hostility given the Israeli invasion, but they have no desire to head South.

In short there is no Arab or Muslim block standing up and trying to throw Israel back into the sea. The residual conflict is no longer Arab-Israeli, but Israeli-Palestinian.

What remains of Israel's success the conventional and high spectru, end of conflict is an assymetric enemy using tools of the lower end of the spectrum. This presents some challenges as Israel attampts to address these issues. Please bear in mind that assyemtric tactics, to be successful, require the broad support of the civilian population in the areas of operation.

This means that in areas like the West Bank and Gaza, a uniformed combatant military will be hard pressed to move in and decisively defeat an enemy using these tactics. A clear challenge.

It also means that Israel is basically immune for an existential threat from forces using these tactics. It would be an interesting scene indeed if a Hamas operative walked into downtown Tel Aviv and said, "Who wants to help me overthrow the Israeli government!"

There are challenges that remain to Israel's residual security concerns, and there is obviously a great deal of frustration in trying to eliminate these threats. The remaining centerpiece of Israeli security and survival rest upon the resolution of the I/P conflict. To do this still requires a great deal of bravery and effort, but it will also require more compassion than muscle to settle.

The Palestinians want the same thing Israel wants, to exist freely. The challenge is how to divide the land that both peoples live on freely and equitably. The challenge on ths forum is to look at that problem and realize that one side or the other is not inherently irrational.

Apocalypse

It is certainly not a valid debate tactic to partake in history denial, doing so earns your opinions the label of irrationality.

*I have emboldened the words 'your opinions' to show that I have simply accused creations' opinions to be irrational.

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Gardener

[QUOTE=gree0232;1058273810]The Palestinians want the same thing Israel wants, to exist freely. [QUOTE]



and this is why they have created a death cult where they indoctrintate their children to be mass murderers, reserve their highest honors to bestow on mass murders, and place the killing of Jews above any other duty a Palestinian can undertake?

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You lack lust; you're so lackluster. Is that all the strength you can muster?

gree0232

Well, you have clearly eviserated the logic I wrote about. How about you take a deep breath, take a fresh look at what I woret, and then honestly try it again.

In a debate forum, your idea and your argumentation are your power.

Simply tossing out that others opinions are irrational, er, irrationally, is exactly what my previous post was about. It is not a very strong idea or arguementation on this forum.

You are absolutely right, I can very much be wrong. However, there are no holes exposed in my logic by simply defaming it as irrational. Take a hard look at it, and explain to me where the holes in the logic are.

Again, simple premise, people do not come to this forum without having put some thoughts into their opinions. If you can show holes in the logic presented to you, most people will change their opinions to address those holes.

If all you offer is a charge of irrationality rather than a reasoned rebuttal, not only will you not change anyone's mind, you will be written off by most members of the forum -- particularly those most interested in policy making.

Apocalypse

You misunderstood, I did not speak about your opinions, but on creations' denial of history.
You can't deny historical facts, you can't claim that a certain war that was declared by one side was actually declared by another.
Doing so would mean by definition that you are irrational, it is not I who label the poster but his words that act as the judge and prosecutor.

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"If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."

Lewis Carroll

gree0232

[quote=Gardener;1058273820][QUOTE=gree0232;1058273810]The Palestinians want the same thing Israel wants, to exist freely. Sure they do. EVERY single Palestinian child indocrtinated in death. Really?

So the Palestinians I run into all the time over here are all wearing suicide vests?

Abbas is clearly the head of the militant wing of the Palestinian cause?

Or could it be that there is a challenge? Just as we face when fighting extremist groups, perhaps?

There are indeed members of Hamas in particular, and Palestinian resistance groups in general, that must be killed or captured. I would be very wary however, of pulling the ideals of the fringe and extrapolating it to the majority.

This leads to bad policy, and the general, rather then specific, application of violence.

If Israel only goes after those that are irreconcilable, that is a message. If Israel goes drops bombs on the general population, that sends an entirely different message.

Also bear in mind, the borad brush strokes you use can be turned against you. Shall we present Israel to the world as only the most extreme settlers, whose children are armed for defense at early ages, and whose discipline can be brutally enforced? Is that the image of all of Israel?

I certainly don't think that this would be an accurate presentation of Israel, just as I do not think that the most radical members of Hamas are an accuarte representation of all Palestinian. Or indeed, the neo-Nazi fringe here in America is not an accurate representation of America.

Apocalypse

What's your opinions on American forces dropping bombs on the general population instead of going after insurgents, dear alleged American vet?

__________________
"If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."

Lewis Carroll

bub

[quote=Gardener;1058273820][QUOTE=gree0232;1058273810]The Palestinians want the same thing Israel wants, to exist freely. don't forget to answer the post # 159

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gree0232

A:
You are clearly intelligent, and you obviously care a great deal about Israel -- and you should.

The intent of what I write next is not an insult. Ignorance and irrationality are not the same things.

The Yom Kippur War was fought before most of the posters here were born. Most of what people are familiar with the current situation, and tend to view backward through that lens. When someone introduces an arguement that rests upon non-factual data, that presents you with an opportunity. That is your chance to educate and to change minds.

Point out the error, correct the error, and show the effect that it will have on the opinion. If he or she refuses to acknowlegde the fact, then their subsequent answer will expose them as irrational, and you can let their talking do the insulting for you.

That is a far better tactic than aiming a charge at a person. All it invites in the end is a counter charge and insults galore.

Please remember that tere are two sides to this issue, and that while setting the record straight is important and drives rationality into the subsequent resolution, personal charges do the exact opposite.