Can anyone explain . . . (Israel)

creation · 09-26-09, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harshaw

There's about 1/4 of Germany which became part of Poland and Russia following WWII. (Or heck, half of Poland which became Russia.) No one complains about that.

How can we? The Germans dont even seem bothered.

Gardener · 09-26-09, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apocalypse

More importantly, when a person attacks another with the intent of murder, and the attacked person breaks the attacker's arm in self-defense, is it immoral?
Should the attacked person be punished by the law?

Now come on, Apocalypse - -you know full well that it all depends on how convincingly the terrorist supporter can inverse cause and effect, indulge in false moral equivelences and frame the interactions involved. Murdering Jews is A o.k. as long as you are able to bluster away with enough bull**** so that people forget that what you are advocating is the murder of Jews.

creation · 09-26-09, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harshaw

They attacked Israel.

So, you're saying that Israel alone among the community of nations has ever kept land acquired after a war? (Especially one it didn't start?) Even recently?

Thank you.

Obviously Im not saying that. History is full of negative deeds and fights over land.

Ive already explained the question you asked in the OP. Do you have a point re that we can discuss?

creation · 09-26-09, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apocalypse

Is it immoral to conquer land from a nation that has tried to conquer yours?
Was it immoral when Israel took the West Bank from Jordan or the Gaza Strip from Egypt after they declared a war on it with their aims being destroying Israel?

More importantly, when a person attacks another with the intent of murder, and the attacked person breaks the attacker's arm in self-defense, is it immoral?
Should the attacked person be punished by the law?

Good question.

Absolutely it is immoral.
An example brought previously highlights this. Great Britain took back the Falkland islands which contained only its population and stopped at that point. It could have sent its navy further, invaded the coast of Argentina and occupied its ports and nearest airfields. It didnt, instead it stuck only to its central issue, the Falklands.

bub · 09-26-09, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardener

To an antisemite, NOTHING is ever antisemitic. Only those who are fair minded will notice the prejudice.

I know, but it's also a bit too easy to refuse any criticism (about the colonies...) from outside because you're Jewish.
It's like the Morrocan guy caught shoplifting who tells that policemen arrested him because he was a foreigner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardener

This will detail methodology and questions asked to those who ARE fair minded, though.

http://www.adl.org/Public%20ADL%20An...2009%20_3_.pdf

Great link, thanks!

From your study:

Quote:

Overall, nearly one-third of those surveyed, 32 percent, believe
that at least three of the above statements are “probably true,”
while 15 percent believe that all four are “probably true.”

Same study about the USA

Quote:

Middle: People who answer between two and five questions critically are considered to be neither prejudiced nor unprejudiced -- that is, not completely prejudice-free in their attitudes toward Jews, but not an audience to be deeply worried about. (35% in 1998 vs. 41% in 1992)

Most Anti-Semitic: The people who answer six or more questions critically are considered the most anti-Semitic group of Americans, and have been isolated for special analysis and demographic identification. (12% in 1998 vs. 20% in 1992)

Anti-Semitism and Prejudice in America: How Prevalent is Anti-Semitism in America?

which gives:

Europe: 15% "very anti-semitic" and 32% "somewhat prejudiced"
USA: 12% "most anti-semitic" and 35% "middle"

Gardener · 09-26-09, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bub

I know, but it's also a bit too easy to refuse any criticism (about the colonies...) from outside because you're Jewish.
It's like the Morrocan guy caught shoplifting who tells that policemen arrested him because he was a foreigner.

Great link, thanks!

From your study:

Same study about the USA

Anti-Semitism and Prejudice in America: How Prevalent is Anti-Semitism in America?

which gives:

Europe: 15% "very anti-semitic" and 32% "somewhat prejudiced"
USA: 12% "most anti-semitic" and 35% "middle"

Yes, there is much antisemitism in both places.

Your point being?

bub · 09-26-09, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardener

Yes, there is much antisemitism in both places.

Your point being?

don't try to depict Europe as if it was as antisemite as nazi germany. Bear in mind that I was answering this:

Quote:

It being a Jewish state. The Europeans dislike Jews, and have mistreated the Jewish people for millenia. The State of Israel as a powerful force, makes the impotent former powers of Europe envious.

Gardener · 09-26-09, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bub

don't try to depict Europe as if it was as antisemite as nazi germany. Bear in mind that I was answering this:

You were the one that made the statement that antisemitism wasn't widespread in Europe. Now, your motivation for this subterfuge is anybody's guess, but I think at least a couple of people here should be intelligent enough to realize that not only are you not fessing up to your mistaken charge, you are trying to portray me as saying something I did not say. THe reasons for your dishonesty, again, are known only to you, but your reactions here are quite telling.

bub · 09-26-09, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardener

You were the one that made the statement that antisemitism wasn't widespread in Europe. Now, your motivation for this subterfuge is anybody's guess, but I think at least a couple of people here should be intelligent enough to realize that not only are you not fessing up to your mistaken charge, you are trying to portray me as saying something I did not say. THe reasons for your dishonesty, again, are known only to you, but your reactions here are quite telling.

You should read more carefully:
- a poster says that europeans dislike jews
- I answer that antisemitism isn't so widespread in Europe
- you post a study revealing that antisemitism is as present in Europe as in the USA
- that's why I think it's not very honest that you and others always depict Europe as being particularly antisemite (oxymoron did that in post 10) or "brainwashed" by "eurabian propaganda" (like you did in post 129), since we have the same level of anti-semitism

Apocalypse · 09-26-09, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creation

Thank you.

As can be seen here, the local majority population had a settlement imposed on it and sought to prevent it, the civil war already under way before 1948 and only Isreali forces crossed into enemy territory. Hence history puts responsibility for this war on Isreali hands, though one could add in the British and various Isreali support in the UN to this.

"A settlement imposed on it", so you are basically claiming that Israel should be blamed for being attacked and invaded by many Arab nations for the sole reason that it existed.
While this statement is not much different in its rationality than your previous statements, I have to say that you are only showing signs of a more and more different and immoral approach to this conflict.

Quote:

Indeed, another example. Isreali forces strike conventional targets on a number of fronts and seize more land. No Egyptian forces cross the Isreali border and no ships on the straits were actually seized.

The Straits were blocked to Israeli ships - that's an act of war under its definition.

Quote:

Yes, of course, but that is not the basis on which responsibility rests. At this time Isreali forces had been on Egyptian soil for years and were even expanding into new areas for the creation of eretz Isreal. That is the basis of responsibility.

So basically you are claiming that Israel is responsible for being attacked and invaded on Yom Kippur.

Quote:

The thing here is Im sure you already know all these counter arguments, so its really a waste of time presenting them on this thread which is after all about a rather different subject.

Pardon me but you have no right to speak about a waste of time, I am doing nothing but wasting my time when I debate with you after you have partaken in a denial of history, I am giving you an opportunity to make sound of your opinions even though they contradict any kind of common sense, and after all that you claim that I'm wasting your time?

Quote:

Yes, thank you. And I have, though of course it is not solely me.

You are pretty much alone with this statement in the entire forum so far, although I'm quite certain that there are many other irrational posters who would have shown their support for this senseless claim if they would have been here at the moment.

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