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I am Israel short documentary

So...
You were Wrong.

Israel Already aids Abbas while hitting Hamas.
And further wrong as this policy is sometimes seen as a plus for Hamas and Abbas a sell-out.

And you have Finally almost answered The quetsion ... you would be alright with land exchange as at least part of the settlement.
(after what.. 10 posts and half a novel?)
 
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mbig said:
So...
You were Wrong.

Israel Already aids Abbas while hitting Hamas.
And further wrong as this policy is sometimes seen as a plus for Hamas and Abbas a sell-out.

And you have Finally almost answered The quetsion ... you would be alright with land exchange as at least part of the settlement.
(after what.. 10 posts and half a novel?)
Click to expand...

Well, Israel is currently deadlocked with Abbas. They refuse to to stop the natural growth of settlements within the West Bank, and Abbas refuses to accept any position short of Palestine including E.Jerusalem. Oh yes, did I mention that Ben is refusing to discuss Jerusalem at all?

Please explain to me how this is 'dealing' with Abbas? Explain to me how this prevents Hamas from sitting back and saying, "See, I told you so, attempting to negotiate with Israel is pointless."?

You can theorize all you want, and the quip about asking for 'portions of settlements' with nothing in exchange simply belies the point. We can only deal with the policy that is being enacted.

the policy that Ben advocates undercuts the Palestinian position of negotiation and proves Hamas correct. And, oh yes, Israel is still not currently bombing Hamas.

So, you tell me Big, how does undermining the moderate wing of the Palestinian equate to a peaceful resolution of this issue?

I am all ears. Show me how Ben's actions lead to peace and equitable settlement. If you can.
 
gree0232 said:
So, you tell me Big, how does undermining the moderate wing of the Palestinian equate to a peaceful resolution of this issue?

.
Click to expand...

if you were to assay that actual beliefs in question, the "moderate" wing of the Palestinians would be similar to the extremist right of Israel. Only the most extremely liberal elements among Palestinians could be considered moderate by any consistant standard.
 
Gardener said:
if you were to assay that actual beliefs in question, the "moderate" wing of the Palestinians would be similar to the extremist right of Israel. Only the most extremely liberal elements among Palestinians could be considered moderate by any consistant standard.
Click to expand...

Prove it. I am glad that you think Palestinians fall into a different political spectrum, but I challenge you to actually look at it and prove it.
 
Gardener said:
if you were to assay that actual beliefs in question, the "moderate" wing of the Palestinians would be similar to the extremist right of Israel. Only the most extremely liberal elements among Palestinians could be considered moderate by any consistant standard.
Click to expand...
gree0232 said:
Prove it. I am glad that you think Palestinians fall into a different political spectrum, but I challenge you to actually look at it and prove it.
Click to expand...

For instance...
Where are the Palestinian [self critical] 'Peace Groups', holding their leaders accountable, or demonstrating With Israelis against, ie, Hamas?
A palestinian B'tselem (or Uri Avnery/Amira Hass) would be lynched as collabortors.
 
mbig said:
For instance...
Where are the Palestinian [self critical] 'Peace Groups', holding their leaders accountable, or demonstrating With Israelis against, ie, Hamas?
A palestinian B'tselem (or Uri Avnery/Amira Hass) would be lynched as collabortors.
Click to expand...

That is not quite the claim you made. You made referrence to the Palestinian political spectrum, and even within Hamas you have politicians more worried about jobs and services than you do in the destruction of Israel.

As for peace groups demonstrating, what do you think Abbas did while Israel was pounding the hell out of Gaza? Is Abbas an Israeli collaborator? He has certainly been accussed of it.

What Israel do if another Nation State decided to start dropping bombs on a Jewish enclave in say, Eastern Europe?

The problem is one of perseption, where we ignore the good and focus solely on the bad. The average Palestinian is no different than the average Israeli, they just happen to sit on opposite sides of the power coin in regards to figuring out how the hell the two peoples will live together.
 
gree0232 said:
.....

The problem is one of perseption, where we ignore the good and focus solely on the bad.
The average Palestinian is no different than the average Israeli, they just happen to sit on opposite sides of the power coin in regards to figuring out how the hell the two peoples will live together.
Click to expand...

Well gosh... I know it's not PC to say so, but that's simply NOT true/Empty moral equivalence. (you can see my sig too)
The cultures and their Values are very different.

Witness another string here.
Palestinians would never trade away 500 Israeli hostages to get back one common Palestinian soldier as Israel does for a Single human life.

Of course that's what Suicide/homocide bombing is all about.....
Lesser value on human life.
Really the complete opposite of the breathtaking values Israeli Jews have.
Please forgive for the simple truth. (and shattering bubbles)
-
 
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mbig said:
Well gosh... I know it's not PC to say so, but that's simply NOT true/Empty moral equivalence. (you can see my sig too)
The cultures and their Values are very different.

Witness another string here.
Palestinians would never trade away 500 Israeli hostages to get back one common Palestinian soldier as Israel does for a Single human life.

Of course that's what Suicide/homocide bombing is all about.....
Lesser value on human life.
Really the complete opposite of the breathtaking values Israeli Jews have.
Please forgive for the simple truth. (and shattering bubbles)
-
Click to expand...


Big, understand that evidence is weighed on a forum.

Why is Shalit being held? Is it to demonstrate the magnanimity of the Palestinian people?

Did the Palestinian 'people' kidnap Shalit? Or did Hamas? Was Israel seeking to show its humility when it captured hundreds of Palestinians in simiar fashion?

So Israel is honorable because it releases more hostages than Palestine.

That Palestinie does not release 100% of the hostages it holds, taken in similar fashion to Israel's for political leverage by one of Palestine's political groups is the basis of your arguementation that all Palestinians are fundamentally flawed?

Specious and spurious.

And bear in mind, the Japanese have an incredible regard for human life. That did not prevent their use of kamikazis in WWII. You do what you need to do in war.

You might also want to take a look at places where suicide bombers have been used. Iranian blew themselves up to stop the Iraqi advance into Iran. The Tamil Tigers used hundreds of them in Sri Lanka. The IRA used proxy suicide bombings, in that they kidnapped and forced people to wear explosive belts by holding families at gun point essentially turning entire families into suicide bombs.

The first recorded use of a suicide bomb though?

"During the Crusades the Christian Knights Templar destroyed their own ship killing 140 Christians but vastly more Muslims."

So, Christians were the first to devalue life during war?

And since EVERY Palestinian is a suicide bomber, we can take these actions and extrapolate them onto an entire society. Yep, Israel is definied solely by its most militant, orthodox settlers, and America is solely described by Tim McVeigh.
 
So aside from ANOTHER deflecting /afield ramble, you have no direct reply to this simple Contrast I painted.
 
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mbig said:
So aside from ANOTHER deflecting /afield ramble, you have no direct reply to this simple Contrast I painted.
Click to expand...

I can see that you have no reply to gree's post beside swiftly brushing it away as "another deflecting/afield ramble".
 
mbig said:
For instance...
Where are the Palestinian [self critical] 'Peace Groups', holding their leaders accountable, or demonstrating With Israelis against, ie, Hamas?
A palestinian B'tselem (or Uri Avnery/Amira Hass) would be lynched as collabortors.
Click to expand...

Even though I would like to see moderate Palestinians join hands with moderate Israelis to protest against Hamas, may I remind you that both Rabin and Sadat were assassinated for making peace with the enemy?

While there are still important steps to be taken by Palestinian moderates (besides joining Israeli/Palestinian peace groups and working on common cultural projects) what is the difference between Israeli and Palestinian fundamentalists who are a real threat to peace ?
 
Mira said:
Even though I would like to see moderate Palestinians join hands with moderate Israelis to protest against Hamas, may I remind you that both Rabin and Sadat were assassinated for making peace with the enemy?

While there are still important steps to be taken by Palestinian moderates (besides joining Israeli/Palestinian peace groups and working on common cultural projects) what is the difference between Israeli and Palestinian fundamentalists who are a real threat to peace ?
Click to expand...

Sadat was Egyptian. (Talk about 'reminding')
NO Palestinian Leader has offered any serious compromise whatsoever on borders, while several Israeli leaders Have.
-
 
mbig said:
Sadat was Egyptian. (Talk about 'reminding')
NO Palestinian Leader has offered any serious compromise whatsoever on borders, while several Israeli leaders Have.
-
Click to expand...

Really that whole Arab peace proposal should be ignored because it didn;t specifically come from a Palestinian leader?

The Road Map to peace, which did not come from Israel, uses the 1967 borders as a basis for negotiation.

Exactly what border concessions has Israel offered? We'll keep a portion of 1967 West Bank? That is not a concession on the basis of the 1967 border. Even keeping 1% is keeping a portion Big.
 
There is no rebuttal above as alway. Just deflection.

The 'arab peace proposal' (for the EXACT 1967 borders. OOOPS) is not the Palestinian peace proposal (whenever they can even get together to make one) and AGAIN, Israel has offered Territorial compromise, Palestinian leaders and the Arab one above have not.
-
 
mbig said:
There is no rebuttal above as alway. Just deflection.

The 'arab peace proposal' (for the EXACT 1967 borders. OOOPS) is not the Palestinian peace proposal (whenever they can even get together to make one) and AGAIN, Israel has offered Territorial compromise, Palestinian leaders and the Arab one above have not.
-
Click to expand...

well, once again there is no compromise when you are TAKING from what is considered Palestinian territory ala the 1967 borders.

Most peace plans acknowledge the need from some changes, none states that the changes should only go in Israel's favor. It is not a territorial compromise when you are taking something from the other side.

It is quite linear actually.
 
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