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Wanted: A Muslim, Reformation.

Red_Dave said:
So asassinations are a more effective mesure of public opinion then elections?
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No but the public and official support of it is. Pakistan has gone mad.

Edit: Mind you you might be right. People are extremely scared there. Might be if there were proper elections people might do something different but I think it is going to be a hell of a struggle getting that nuclear country back from the brink.
 
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alexa said:
No but the public and official support of it is. Pakistan has gone mad.

Edit: Mind you you might be right. People are extremely scared there. Might be if there were proper elections people might do something different but I think it is going to be a hell of a struggle getting that nuclear country back from the brink.
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What was wrong with the 2008 elections? You would have thought that if the Islamists had mass popular support then the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam would have performed better.

Pakistani general election, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Red_Dave said:
What was wrong with the 2008 elections? You would have thought that if the Islamists had mass popular support then the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam would have performed better.

Pakistani general election, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I think it has to do with the Taliban, the stance Pakistan took with the US over Afghanistan, corruption and so on. I remember Imran Khan saying a year or so ago that Pakistan was bordering a failed state and that a great deal was to do with the Afghan war and civilians in Pakistan being bombed and bombed. That drove people to the Taliban. Once they found out what they are about they usually wanted out if they could.

Then there is corruption. Remember the floods. I watched a program on that and it appears that area would not have been flooded if it were not a damn or something constructed to prevent the natural river flooding from going on some land owned by the rich with connections. Instead it went on an extremely heavily populated area. I don't know how many lost their homes and lives but I do know that Pakistan seemed to be doing sfa to help.....so who does? You've guessed the Islamists. They provide everything including a little religion but they do provide good, quality camps with proper medical help and 3 meals a day - the islamist stuff is a side.

I have heard that Muslims who think differently have been killed, mosques destroyed, churches destroyed and so on. People are scared to talk, scared to say what they want so they all start saying the same thing.

Somewhere I saw Salman Taseer described as 'the last Liberal'.

It is a scary situation. Even if there was a new election now, who would dare speak up against what is going on. How would anyone be able to stand for something different without being killed by his bodyguard like Taseer? You might get the odd one or two but they are getting less and less. I guess people are pragmatic.
 
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Red_Dave said:
I will ask again, if literalism is mainstream in Islam then why do secularists win elections in Muslim countries?
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I agree that not all Islam is literalistic. Again going back to what Imran Khan said about a year ago, he believed that if Pakistan was going to be saved from being a failed state and from going down that route, the US had to get out of Afghanistan tout de suite. I don't know if it is now too late or not.

This little video is worth watching to see courage and another side of Islam in Pakistan.

Sufism Under Attack in Pakistan - Video Library - The New York Times
 
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Albert Di Salvo said:
What happened to the moderate Muslim governor of Pakistani Punjab when he came out against blasphemy laws? Bang, bang.
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And yet I read again and again that there is no law against Blasphemy in Islam

NewAgeIslam.com: The War Withing Islam; No injunction in Islam to punish a 'blasphemer ': Maulana Wahiduddin Khan

and here several people have written an open letter to the sect Taseer's killer came from complaining about the killing and their susequent celebration.

NewAgeIslam.com: The War within Islam; Open letter to Maulana Ilyas Qadri, the founder of Dawat-e-Islami, to which the killer of Mr Salman Taseer belonged
 
alexa today said:
I agree that not all Islam is literalistic. Again going back to what Imran Khan said about a year ago, he believed that if Pakistan was going to be saved from being a failed state and from going down that route, the US had to get out of Afghanistan tout de suite. I don't know if it is now too late or not.
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Still going with the irrelevant strawman 'all' so to deceive about the Basic overall situation.
Unseemly if persistent.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/87827-terror-uks-new-christmas-export-60.html#post1059207479
mbig said:
alexa last week said:
What I have said is that not all Muslims are literalists. That remains the case. Why do you think Wahhabi was invented? It was because Traditional Islam was not taking the Koran literally.
Well given that your first sentence was not accurate, this one clearly isn't either.
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Most Muslims are literalists. So of course you are FORCED to try the Strawman/absolute "all" .. [because] language like this can never be refuted because "all" 1.5 Billion Muslims Obviously aren't literalist.
However they are in Great Majority and therein lies the problem, which you seek to avoid by using the Tricky "not all".
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alexa today said:
Sufism Under Attack in Pakistan - Video Library - The New York Times
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Again and part of the same attempt at deception.

Same post as I linked above
mbig said:
alexa last week said:
Have you never heard of Ijtihad? Think sufis are literalists?
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And what Percent of Muslims are Sufis?
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Unanswered by alexa the last time...
So.. let's take a look!

Answers.com - What is the world's Muslim Sufi population
"What is the world's Muslim Sufi population?"

"2 to 5 million practicing"
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That looks very low to me. btw, that's what 1/3 of 1%?
But even at 10x the number, pretty damn small, and no threat to the Fact that "Literalism is Mainstream."

another
Muslims in America - muslims religion | Ask MetaFilter
The number of Sufis around the world is generally estimated at around 5 to 10 million. That's 1% of all Muslims. Their exclusion in that wiki chart is defensible.
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Actually that's less than 1%.


another
Wild World Of Politics: Good Muslim, Bad Muslim? Gov. Paterson Inserts Foot -- Again
"...There are 3 main branches of Islam – Sunni, Shiite and Sufi. Sunnis make up almost 85% of the Muslim population globally, while Shiites account for perhaps 13%. (Sunnis are estimated to account for about 90% of U.S. Muslims.) Sunnis and Shiites split in the 7th century over who should succeed the Prophet Muhammad.

Sufism is a far smaller, mystical branch of Islam, more a type of Islamic practice than a stand-alone denomination. Besides Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam behind the Lower Manhattan Islamic center, the 13th-century Persian poet Rumi was probably the best-known exemplar of Sufism to most Americans (followed by Yusuf Islam, the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, who became a Sufi Muslim).

Sufism is much smaller than the other two branches, and to make matters more complicated, its adherents can identify as either Sunni or Shiite. And Sufis are often the object of prejudice and persecution from other Muslims, as William Dalrymple explained in a recent New York Times op-ed...."
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Claiming Sufism is some sort of even signicant minority practice would be like claiming [similarly mystical] Kaballah/Madonna was a significant representation of Judaism.

That Literalism is Majority and "Mainsteam" not only Untouched by the attempted sandbagging above (as it was last week)... but is now re-enforced.
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alright Mr Big. You believe that wahhabi and salafi Wallabi are true Sunni Islam. So do they. They believe everything else is not true Islam and the more extreme even kill those people.

The rest of Islam and there is a mass of it. Far far more sects and ideas than I know but the rest of Islam is not literalistic. You appear to be a Wahhabi supporter. I am a traditional Islam supporter.

Sufism in Pakistan is substantial, so much so that more than half of our Pakistan immigrants come from a Sufi base.


You know I do not like debating with you. I find your style and sometimes your honesty not too good. You are not here to debate. You are here to prove your point and only your point by fair means and foul and not debate issues raised. This makes for tedium.

again you believe that wahhabi/salafism is the 'true' Islam. Myself I believe traditional Islam is the true islam. There we differ. With a moire open debater it would be possible to look at these issues and see how they contribute to current issues. That open person is not you.

Get over yourself and your psychology and your insane beliefs that everyone is up to deception. That may well be what you are up to but stop imagining other people are too.

Now I am done with you.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Debate the topic -- exclusively.
 
alexa said:
alright Mr Big. You believe that wahhabi and salafi Wallabi are true Sunni Islam. So do they. They believe everything else is not true Islam and the more extreme even kill those people.
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No, I believe Islam, the True Mainstream Majority Body of Islam Is the 'true Islam' (whatever that is) and have many times presented the Numbers and commentary.
While you try and pass off that most Muslims aren't literalist and that 1% Sufi IS the 'true Islam'.

The rest of Islam and there is a mass of it. Far far more sects and ideas than I know but the rest of Islam is Not literalistic.
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Really?
Not again!
I guess you missed not only the Numbers I've posted previously, but the commentary from Muslims Reformers who are in Great/Single Digit Minority, like this
Perhaps it's 30th posting on this board alone.
In fact, Posted in THIS string already

"... The trouble with Islam today is that Literalism is Mainstream.

Even Moderate Muslims take the Koran as the final word of God: unfiltered, unchanged and unchangeable.
This Supremacy Complex inhibits us from asking hard questions about what happens when faith becomes dogma.
Such a path can lead only to a dead end of More Violence...

- The Australian: Irshad Manji: Denial is scourge of Islam [August 23, 2005]

And btw, Wahhabis and Salafis, who alone Far outnumber Sufis, aren't nearly the only literalists. Literalism, again, is Mainstream.
(this apparently has to not only be proved, but repeated endlessly)
Wahhabis and Salafis, in Addition to being Literalist like Most other Muslims, interpret and observe the Koran more fastidiously.

Previously discussed here and below:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...osexuality-0-fer-500-a-24.html#post1058650915



You appear to be a Wahhabi supporter. I am a traditional Islam supporter.
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I'm a Wahhabi supporter? :^)


again you believe that wahhabi/salafism is the 'true' Islam. Myself I believe traditional Islam is the true islam. There we differ. With a moire open debater it would be possible to look at these issues and see how they contribute to current issues. That open person is not you.
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Again this is Incorrect.
I believe Islam, Mainstream Literal Islam is the True Islam, while you try and paint 1% Sufis as the 'True Islam'.

Personal attacks not responded to for obvious reason.
 
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