#2. "Jews aren't Real Jews"

mbig · May 15, 2009

and ergo, are just a religion, and not a people and have no ties Genetically to the Holy Land.
(the 'Zand' string and others)

Really?

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes
PNAS
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences)

""... A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora.

Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were Not significantly different from one another at the genetic level.
Admixture estimates suggested Low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities.

A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively Tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians.

Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora....."
[....]

Evidence for Common Jewish Origins.

Several lines of evidence support the hypothesis that Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors.
First, six of the seven Jewish populations analyzed here formed a relatively tight cluster in the MDS analysis (Fig. 2). The only exception was the Ethiopian Jews, who were affiliated more closely with non-Jewish Ethiopians and other North Africans. Our results are consistent with other studies of Ethiopian Jews based on a variety of markers (16, 23, 46). However, as in other studies where Ethiopian Jews exhibited markers that are characteristic of both African and Middle Eastern populations, they had Y-chromosome haplotypes (e.g., haplotypes Med and YAP+4S) that were common in other Jewish populations.

Second, despite their high degree of geographic dispersion, Jewish populations from Europe, North Africa, and the Near East were less diverged genetically from each other than any other group of populations in this study (Table 2). The statistically significant correlation between genetic and geographic distances in our non-Jewish populations from Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is suggestive of spatial differentiation, whereas the lack of such a correlation for Jewish populations is more compatible with a model of recent dispersal and subsequent isolation during and after the Diaspora..""
[....]

Middle Eastern Affinities.

A Middle Eastern origin of the Jewish gene pool is generally assumed because of the detailed documentation of Jewish history and religion. There are not many genetic studies that have attempted to infer the genetic relationships among Diaspora Jews and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations. A number of earlier studies found evidence for Middle Eastern affinities of Jewish genes (4, 5, 7, 51); however, results have depended to a great extent on which loci were being compared, possibly because of the confounding effects of selection (4). Although the NRY tends to behave as a single genetic locus (52), the DNA results presented here are less likely to be biased by selective effects. The extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed here (Tables 2 and 3) supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin. Of the Middle Eastern populations included in this study, only the Syrian and Palestinian samples mapped within the central cluster of Jewish populations (Fig. 2)...."

again, above excerpted from the longer:
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes ? PNAS

mbig · May 15, 2009

2b. Why should One/A 'religion', Judaism, have a state and not others?

This of course denies Jews are a People/Race/Nation which above and much history indicates they are.

Zionism started as a SECULAR movement of 19th European Jews in response to persecution.
In fact, it's opposition was religous and the main/remaining fringe of 'anti-zionist' Jews are the ultra-Orthodox sects, Neturei Karta (aka 'jewsnotzionsts' that bashers love to use for 'cover', etc) and Satmar.

The Persecution of Jews WAS as a people/Race, not as a Religion.
Hitler killed Orthodox Jews, Atheist Jews, Catholic 'half-Jews'. In short, the Race we all know does exist.

So why is it the National aspirations of only One people is illegitimate?

Muslims have 57 States.
Arabs have 22 States (going for pre-Cleansed/Judenrein #23/Palestine); All more Religous. Not to mention 'Jordan' is 70% 'palestinian'.
So why is it Jews can't have a tiny one?
One, it shares with it's 20% fully enfranchised Arab population no less.

And unlike it's more religous, at least partial Sharia Neigbors, Israel IS a Secular, not religous State.
With no 'Eye-for-an-eye' justice and not even a death penalty for terrorists.
Where People of every Race, Religion and Gender (male, female, Gay), Vote, Worship and walk the streets without fear.
As opposed all it's neighbors.
-

G-Man · May 15, 2009

mbig said:
and ergo, are just a religion, and not a people and have no ties Genetically to the Holy Land.
(the 'Zand' string and others)

Really?

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes
PNAS
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences)

""... A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora.

Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were Not significantly different from one another at the genetic level.
Admixture estimates suggested Low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities.

A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively Tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians.

Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora....."
[....]

Evidence for Common Jewish Origins.

Several lines of evidence support the hypothesis that Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors.
First, six of the seven Jewish populations analyzed here formed a relatively tight cluster in the MDS analysis (Fig. 2). The only exception was the Ethiopian Jews, who were affiliated more closely with non-Jewish Ethiopians and other North Africans. Our results are consistent with other studies of Ethiopian Jews based on a variety of markers (16, 23, 46). However, as in other studies where Ethiopian Jews exhibited markers that are characteristic of both African and Middle Eastern populations, they had Y-chromosome haplotypes (e.g., haplotypes Med and YAP+4S) that were common in other Jewish populations.

Second, despite their high degree of geographic dispersion, Jewish populations from Europe, North Africa, and the Near East were less diverged genetically from each other than any other group of populations in this study (Table 2). The statistically significant correlation between genetic and geographic distances in our non-Jewish populations from Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is suggestive of spatial differentiation, whereas the lack of such a correlation for Jewish populations is more compatible with a model of recent dispersal and subsequent isolation during and after the Diaspora..""
[....]

Middle Eastern Affinities.

A Middle Eastern origin of the Jewish gene pool is generally assumed because of the detailed documentation of Jewish history and religion. There are not many genetic studies that have attempted to infer the genetic relationships among Diaspora Jews and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations. A number of earlier studies found evidence for Middle Eastern affinities of Jewish genes (4, 5, 7, 51); however, results have depended to a great extent on which loci were being compared, possibly because of the confounding effects of selection (4). Although the NRY tends to behave as a single genetic locus (52), the DNA results presented here are less likely to be biased by selective effects. The extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed here (Tables 2 and 3) supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin. Of the Middle Eastern populations included in this study, only the Syrian and Palestinian samples mapped within the central cluster of Jewish populations (Fig. 2)...."

again, above excerpted from the longer:
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes ? PNAS

What ties did the African-American Sammy Davis Jnr have to the holy land and why did this change one morning when he woke up and decided that he would like to follow the Judaism religion?

Did his ancestors live in the region?
Did his family live in the region?
Had he ever seen the holy land?

He joined a religion which is exactly what Judaism is. It is not a 'people' since its members are limitless. Everybody could convert and become a Jew tomorrow if they wanted. If 'Jews' were a 'people' this would not be possible.

Tashah · May 15, 2009

G-Man said:
What ties did the African-American Sammy Davis Jnr have to the holy land and why did this change one morning when he woke up and decided that he would like to follow the Judaism religion?

Jeesh. The old Sammy Davis Jr canard.

Jewish Law (halakhic) defines anyone who fully converts to Judaism as fully Jewish.

G-Man said:
Did his ancestors live in the region?
Did his family live in the region?
Had he ever seen the holy land?

Answered above.

G-Man said:
He joined a religion which is exactly what Judaism is. It is not a 'people' since its members are limitless.

Becoming Jewish does not begin and end with conversion. It also requires embracing the history and culture of the Jewish people

G-Man said:
Everybody could convert and become a Jew tomorrow if they wanted.

What a simplistic notion! :rofl

That's not how it works. This isn't The Church of What's Happening Now. It takes many years to convert to Judaism.

G-Man said:
If 'Jews' were a 'people' this would not be possible.

A Jew (Hebrew: יְהוּדִי‎, Yehudi (sg.); יְהוּדִים, Yehudim (pl.); Ladino: ג׳ודיו, Djudio (sg.); ג׳ודיוס, Djudios (pl.); Yiddish: יִיד, Yid (sg.); יִידן, Yidn (pl.))[3] is a member of the Jewish people, an ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish people and the religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, and converts to Judaism have been absorbed into the Jewish community throughout the millennia.

Despite the evident diversity displayed by the world's distinct Jewish populations, both culturally and physically, genetic studies have demonstrated most of these to be genetically related to one another, having ultimately originated from a common ancient Israelite population that underwent geographic branching and subsequent independent evolutions.[36]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew"]Jew - Wikipedia[/ame]

The yardsticks of genetics, culture, ethnicity, history, and religion do indeed verify that the Jewish people are a distinct people.

danarhea · May 15, 2009

G-Man said:
What ties did the African-American Sammy Davis Jnr have to the holy land and why did this change one morning when he woke up and decided that he would like to follow the Judaism religion?

Did his ancestors live in the region?
Did his family live in the region?
Had he ever seen the holy land?

He joined a religion which is exactly what Judaism is. It is not a 'people' since its members are limitless. Everybody could convert and become a Jew tomorrow if they wanted. If 'Jews' were a 'people' this would not be possible.

About Sammy Davis Jr......

Whether or not he is Jewish can easily be cleared up. He should expose himself on national TV. If it is a helmet, and not an anteater, then at least part of him is Jewish. :mrgreen:

Blunt · May 15, 2009

danarhea said:
About Sammy Davis Jr......

Whether or not he is Jewish can easily be cleared up. He should expose himself on national TV. If it is a helmet, and not an anteater, then at least part of him is Jewish. :mrgreen:

Or Muslim! they too mutilate their sons genitals

G-Man · May 17, 2009

Tashah said:
Jeesh. The old Sammy Davis Jr canard.

I guess we could pick someone else, there are after all thousands (maybe millions?) of converts and persons whose mother was a convert.

How about Marilyn Monroe or Elizabeth Taylor. It seemed to be the 'in thing' to convert back in the golden days of Hollywood.

Jewish Law (halakhic) defines anyone who fully converts to Judaism as fully Jewish.

Yes, since Judaism is a religion it would seem obvious that anyone who 'joins' this religion is a fully paid up member of said religion. Joining a religion does not, however, change where you were born, where your parents were born, what your genetics are, what your history is and not (as some seem to believe) grant you a right to live in a land thousands of miles away which you have never seen.

Answered above.

Yes, see above. Nothing you have said so far convinces me that when one person converts he wakes up the next day with a different history, culture or genetic make up as a result of said conversion. He/she is, infact, exactly the same person but just someone who now chooses to follow a different religion.

Becoming Jewish does not begin and end with conversion. It also requires embracing the history and culture of the Jewish people.

If 'Jews' are a people surely becoming a Jew would not be dependent on your knowledge of history or culture?

What a simplistic notion! :rofl

What is simplistic is arguing that someone who is say Russian, has lived in Russia all his live, all his ancestors have lived in Russia, has never been to nor seen the Middle East, decides to convert to Judaism one day and now you are telling me he is a member of a 'people' who lived in the ME 1000's of years ago and he has a genetic link to these 'people' - which apparantly he did not possess prior to changing his religion :roll:

I know Religions cause normally sane people to lose any idea of rational thought but in the cold light of day the above must surely be obvious to an educated person such as yourself.

That's not how it works. This isn't The Church of What's Happening Now. It takes many years to convert to Judaism.

Lots of different religions/cults require propspective members to go through long periods of trial/apprenticeship before they are accepted in, this is hardly a concept unique to Judaism.

The yardsticks of genetics, culture, ethnicity, history, and religion do indeed verify that the Jewish people are a distinct people.

This makes no sense whatsoever. 'Jews' are a mix of persons from different genetics, different cultures, different ethnicities and different histories and somehow all these differences makes them a distinct 'people'. The only similarity all these people have is that they follow the same religion, but that does not make them a 'people' in any way.

Tashah · May 17, 2009

I even bolded the descriptive the Jewish people from Wikipedia just for you. Sociologists define a people as a group sharing many or all of these commonalities: origin, ancestery, history, religion, language, tradition, culture, foods, physical characteristics, biological inheritance.

It's not a difficult concept. The Kurdish people. The Flemish people. The Native American people. The Jewish people. etc.

G-Man · May 17, 2009

Tashah said:
I even bolded the descriptive the Jewish people from Wikipedia just for you. Sociologists define a people as a group sharing many or all of these commonalities: origin, ancestery, history, religion, language, tradition, culture, foods, physical characteristics, biological inheritance.

It's not a difficult concept. The Kurdish people. The Flemish people. The Native American people. The Jewish people. etc.

Fine, then just explain exactly which commonalities from your list "origin, ancestery, history, religion, language, tradition, culture, foods, physical characteristics, biological inheritance" are shared between Jewish persons who live in Israel and whose direct ancestors have lived in the ME for 1000's of years and a Russian convert (or any other convert) whose ancestors have always lived in Europe, who has no Jewish relatives and who has never been to the ME.

Quite clearly these two persons cannot share the same origin (one was born in Europe, the other in the ME).

They cannot share the same ancestery (since they have different ancestors).

They share the same religion yes.

The same language well clearly not.

The same traditions is a no since traditions are passed on from one person to another.

Culture - well I doubt it.

Foods seems a strange one to list but I guess so. Are we now labelling vegetarians as a distinct people?

Physical Characteristics - well no. You can get Asian and European Jews so I am presuming these people will not share any physical characteristics.

Biological inheritance, ugh this is actually my point. How can a group whose members convert in possibly claim a biological inheritance

Basically we have a group who share the same religion and eat what their religion tells them to. And this is supposed to make them a people?

Going by the description of a 'people' provided by yourself it is clear that 'Jews' do not meet this criteria. 'Jews' are just followers of a religion like millions of other people across the globe.

Real Talk · May 17, 2009

Judaism is an ethnicity.

Race is an obsolete social construct.

Most Israeli jews have no history in palestine before the 1950's.

The palestinians (or people that were to later become palestinians), including long inhabiting jews and all people of the land were the indigenous people of the land, and thus the natural gatekeepers of land rights.

As foreigners, the imigrating jews who were later to become israeli jews (I will call them zionists, and I do not believe this to be an emotive term in this context) were colonisers of land against the will of the vast majority fo the people of the land.

Thus my objection to the formation of the Israeli state has nothing to do with the concept of race at all, but to do with the right of indigenous peoples.
If it were German land, or even the land of any involved power, or if the people of the land had been gracious enough to offer the land, I would feel diferantly. But I do not accept the legitimacy of the imperial sovereignties who made the decision.

Real Talk · May 17, 2009

doublepost.

Kernel Sanders · May 17, 2009

G-Man said:
Fine, then just explain exactly which commonalities from your list "origin, ancestery, history, religion, language, tradition, culture, foods, physical characteristics, biological inheritance" are shared between Jewish persons who live in Israel and whose direct ancestors have lived in the ME for 1000's of years and a Russian convert (or any other convert) whose ancestors have always lived in Europe, who has no Jewish relatives and who has never been to the ME

Judaism is not a proselytizing religion, and converts are rare relative to other religions (~10% of Christians are converts compared to ~3% for Judaism). Furthermore, 95% of conversions to Judaism happen through marriage (which affects diversity less than outright conversion). It's obviously true that a convert will no more change their ethnicity than a convert to any other religion, but two randomly selected Jewish people would be far more likely to be of the same ethnicity than with the other major religions.

Goshin · May 17, 2009

The Jewish people have an ancestral and historical claim to that land, they aren't interlopers.

As noted above, there is a "genetically Jewish" racial type. The old crap about "they're not real Jews, they're Ashkenazi and converts" is untrue for most.

Given the persecution in their history, who could blame them for wanting to reclaim their ancestral homeland and have one country on the planet they could be sure wouldn't turn against them?

The average middle-eastern Muslim doesn't really give a **** about the Palistinians. In their own lands they tend to treat them like second-class scum in many cases. For many, their only use is as an excuse to hate Israel and as agent-provocateurs of an ongoing conflict.

G.

bub · May 17, 2009

Tashah said:
I even bolded the descriptive the Jewish people from Wikipedia just for you. Sociologists define a people as a group sharing many or all of these commonalities: origin, ancestery, history, religion, language, tradition, culture, foods, physical characteristics, biological inheritance.

It's not a difficult concept. The Kurdish people. The Flemish people. The Native American people. The Jewish people. etc.

I don't know about Kurdish or Native American people, but "flemish" do not define themselves with "biological inheritance" or "physical characteristics".

The main things that unites them is language (which they had to construct in the 19th century, as they actually spoke dozens of different dialects) as vector of a "common culture" (which has actually been constructed and "mythified" during the 19th century)....

These things evolute: Northern France was in the County of Flanders, and now it is French. New-York was Dutch, now it is American. Louisiana French, now it is American. South America was Aztec/Maya/Inca..., now it is mostly European

Real Talk · May 17, 2009

Goshin said:
The Jewish people have an ancestral and historical claim to that land, they aren't interlopers.

The historical claim is ancient and flimsy (for a jewish nation)

Real Talk · May 17, 2009

Goshin said:
a **** about the Palistinians. In their own lands they tend to treat them like second-class scum in many cases.

Sidetrack. And I question the motives of introducing it.
Are u trying to demonise the palestinians with a side track?
What were you trying to imply?

Tashah · May 17, 2009

G-Man said:
What is simplistic is arguing that someone who is say Russian, has lived in Russia all his live, all his ancestors have lived in Russia, has never been to nor seen the Middle East, decides to convert to Judaism one day and now you are telling me he is a member of a 'people' who lived in the ME 1000's of years ago and he has a genetic link to these 'people' - which apparantly he did not possess prior to changing his religion :roll:

As was noted, conversion to Judaism is a rare and lengthy process.

I am Jewish. My familiy lived in Russia and Ukraine for centuries. I had a genetic analysis done some years ago to ascertain if I possessed the genetic mutations for such Jewish conditions as Tey Sachs etc. The genetics clearly showed a baseline haplotype that is the common denominator of all semitic people of ancient Middle East origin.

Real Talk · May 17, 2009

Goshin said:
Given the persecution in their history, who could blame them for wanting to reclaim their ancestral homeland and have one country on the planet they could be sure wouldn't turn against them?

I dont blame them for wanting one. I blame them for taking one off other people by force.
For what its worth, I wish more were invited to my home country.with open arms. we had ample space and good land at that time. and could have used the (skilled and unskilled) labor. Infact, our current primeminister is a child of the diaspora (austrian jewish parents iirc). But we were too ethnocentric and racist to take real numbers. A real crime (collectively, by the western world, to maintain our ethnocentric imigration limits against jews (particularly non western european ones) while we give away other peoples land to 'solve' problems they had nothing to do with... a real tragedy, imo.

Tashah · May 17, 2009

Real Talk said:
I dont blame them for wanting one. I blame them for taking one off other people by force.

Correction. A UN Resolution according to the recomendations of the United Nations Special Committee on the Mandate (UNSCOM).

Real Talk · May 17, 2009

Tashah said:
Correction. A UN Resolution according to the recomendations of the United Nations Special Committee on the Mandate (UNSCOM).

I blame the other actors involved for the sequence of events also.
I must note, local palestinian actors are not without blame either.
However, it was their turff. As far as im concerned. Their rules when it comes to who gets to settle. As far as im concerned.

But yeah. The U.N. sanctioned the zionist colonistation of palestinian (the people who lived there already) land

p.s. i added to my other post.

danarhea · May 17, 2009

Real Talk said:
Judaism is an ethnicity.

Race is an obsolete social construct.

Most Israeli jews have no history in palestine before the 1950's.

The palestinians (or people that were to later become palestinians), including long inhabiting jews and all people of the land were the indigenous people of the land, and thus the natural gatekeepers of land rights.

As foreigners, the imigrating jews who were later to become israeli jews (I will call them zionists, and I do not believe this to be an emotive term in this context) were colonisers of land against the will of the vast majority fo the people of the land.

Thus my objection to the formation of the Israeli state has nothing to do with the concept of race at all, but to do with the right of indigenous peoples.
If it were German land, or even the land of any involved power, or if the people of the land had been gracious enough to offer the land, I would feel diferantly. But I do not accept the legitimacy of the imperial sovereignties who made the decision.

As foreigners, the imigrating Europeans who were later to become Americans were colonisers of land against the will of the vast majority of the people of the land.

As foreigners, the imigrating French, Romans, and Vikings, who were later to become the English were colonisers of land against the will of the vast majority of the people of the land.

As foreigners, the imigrating Spanish who were later to become Mexicans were colonisers of land against the will of the vast majority of the people of the land.

etc, etc, etc.

Why pick on only the Jews? What is YOUR heritage? I bet you dollars to donuts I can pick on it too. :mrgreen:

But maybe you are right. Let's put everything back the way it was. No more Israel. NO more England. No more America. No more Mexico. Where do we go from here? Hey, lets all emigrate to Antarctica.... Nah, we can't do that either. We would be trampling the rights of the penguins. :mrgreen:

Blunt · May 17, 2009

Tashah said:
As was noted, conversion to Judaism is a rare and lengthy process.

I am Jewish. My familiy lived in Russia and Ukraine for centuries. I had a genetic analysis done some years ago to ascertain if I possessed the genetic mutations for such Jewish conditions as Tey Sachs etc. The genetics clearly showed a baseline haplotype that is the common denominator of all semitic people of ancient Middle East origin.

Tay-Sachs disease is very rare in the general population. The genetic mutations that cause this disease are more common in people of Ashkenazi (eastern and central European) Jewish heritage than in those with other backgrounds.

Tay-Sachs disease - Genetics Home Reference
is that baseline haplotype shared by Palestinians as they too are semites

mbig · May 17, 2009

Real Talk said:
Judaism is an ethnicity.

Race is an obsolete social construct.

Most Israeli jews have no history in palestine before the 1950's.

The palestinians (or people that were to later become palestinians), including long inhabiting jews and all people of the land were the indigenous people of the land, and thus the natural gatekeepers of land rights.

As foreigners, the imigrating jews who were later to become israeli jews (I will call them zionists, and I do not believe this to be an emotive term in this context) were colonisers of land against the will of the vast majority fo the people of the land.

Thus my objection to the formation of the Israeli state has nothing to do with the concept of race at all, but to do with the right of indigenous peoples.
If it were German land, or even the land of any involved power, or if the people of the land had been gracious enough to offer the land, I would feel diferantly. But I do not accept the legitimacy of the imperial sovereignties who made the decision.

Arabs DID get 99% of the Ottoman Empire and perhaps now rule 110% of their original 'range'.

People like Kurds/Kudistan were willy-nilly incorporated into 'Iraq' and given to a Saudi Prince. Faisal.

Similarly, 'Jordan' which is 70% 'Palestinian' and which was 77% of the British Mandate, was given to ANOTHER Saudi Prince, Abdullah (Great Grandfather of the present).
British spoils for help beating the Turks.

But people only have problem with the legitimacy of ONE tiny country/Sovereignty; Israel. Ironically too, the only one voted on by a World Body. The UN (and previous intent of the League of Nations before any Holocaust).
Not to mention.... The Weizmann-Faisal Agreement

Despite the fact that the specific parcels that became Israel were 2/3 State Land belonging to NO arab and in fact had a Jewish majority by the time of statehood.
This of course includes the Negev Desert which was thought useless and dumped on the Jews as part of their state.

If one wants to break Arabs up into subgroups, and sub-sub-groups (Gazans, Haifans, Ramallans, anyone?) one can always find 'injustice'.
But it's always attempted on just the scale to deny Jews a State/point to injustice on the scale of 'Palestinians'.. a Nonexistent Nationality or in fact very Mixed 'Race' of Leftovers and refugees.

One could argue Gazans are in fact closer to Egyptians in many ways; accent (they all speak arabic) and cultural
characteristics and West Bankers to Jordanians.
But this Bogus nationality 'palestine' was created conveniently on a scale to delegitimize Israel.

And in fact from 1948-1967 when the Arabs controlled the land in question.. there was NO Palestine.. nor even really Palestinians. Jordan Annexed the West Bank in 1950 and Egypt Ruled Gaza.
If Arabs hadn't lost the 1967 War.. there would still be no 'Palestine' nor palestinians.

Where are all you 'Human Rightsers' on the question of 25 Million Kurds.. the World's largest ethnic group without a state.
A truly Unique People/Language/Ethnicity/Culture (unlike 'palestinians') who are persecuted by all their Muslim Hosts countries.

Does a single one of you make a string on this or post daily on THIS truer and larger injustice? How about Tibet?

Of course not. You're just 'anti-zionists'. COUGH.
-

Blunt · May 17, 2009

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birobidzhan]Birobidzhan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
was this the first jewish homeland?

Real Talk · May 18, 2009

danarhea said:
Why pick on only the Jews? What is YOUR heritage? I bet you dollars to donuts I can pick on it too. :mrgreen:

But maybe you are right. Let's put everything back the way it was. No more Israel. NO more England. No more America. No more Mexico. Where do we go from here? Hey, lets all emigrate to Antarctica.... Nah, we can't do that either. We would be trampling the rights of the penguins. :mrgreen:

I do not pick only on the jews.
My heritage is that of a half belgian new zealander of partial maori decent.
And I have been very open and forthcoming about the crimes of my peoples.
However, most of them were quite a long time ago. Altho in the case of both new zealands indigenous maori, and belgian history in the congo that there is somewhat of an ongoing obligation to do what one can to make things right with these people).

The reason I talk about the Israeli case more than those others ive reffered to is because in the case of Israel/Palestine, opinion still doesnt recognise that it was an issue. There is no recognition from many of the palestinian plight on land that was stolen from them by outsiders. In both New Zealand and belgium its near concensus.

I am not applying any double standard here.

As for your policy proposal, this is not what I would advocate as a solution to where we are now. Iam not advocating Israelis be forced to leave the country.

#2. "Jews aren't Real Jews"

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