Jakers

That might be true if we were discussing two separate states with no prior history of violence. After over a century of internecine, stop-and, nearly one-sided aggression on the Zionist side, the responsibility lies totally with the original and persistent aggressor--Zionist Israel. Temporary truce ended and the same ol' same ol' of the past century resumed. Don't try shuffling off 100 years of conquest, appropriation, dominance, and robbery on Hamas, simply because they make some pathetic effort to prove that their vastly more powerful invader has not yet totally cowed, subdued, and enslaved them.

Of course it does!! All these phony overtures add up to is the exact same thing--an admission of defeat for the Palestinians, and a recognition of the "right" of the Israel to seize its spoils of war. That game was forced by European colonialists on people with inferior firepower all around the world. Heck it's the same game they're still playing, even as we speak, with the last of the Amazonian Indian tribes. It was evil in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries, and it's equally evil today, both in the Amazon and in Palestine.

I do not know Sri Lanka's history as well as I know that of Palestine, so let me ask you about it in order to discover whether or not were are discussing identical, or near identical cases.

1/Was Sri Lanka a sovereign state, or at least a nation made up of a population of Sri Lankans, a population that had inhabited that island for many generations, thus making the Sri Lankans the indigenous population? Or was this population the Tamils?

2/Was it the Tamils or the Sri Lankans who were the original majority at the time that two populations began to occupy the same island, and who were the emigres from elsewhere?.

3/Which population imposed its laws and governance upon the other, and curtailed the political rights of the other, effectively creating an uberclass and a permanent underclass?

4/ Have the Sri Lankans treated the Tamils justly and equitably wrt lawe and social services, or have they been treated as a defeated underclass?

5/Lastly, is it the stated historical position that the goal of Sri Lanka is to eventually create a Sri Lanka state, ethnically cleansed of all Tamils or other non-Sri Lankans?

We all know the answers to these question wrt Israel/Palestine. Please compare.

Israel is a legal state, but it is not a legitimate one. Let me explain the distinction. It is a 'legal' state because the UN says it is. It is an illegitimate state because the UN violated its own charter to create it, after being bullied and bribed, chiefly by the USA, to break its own law and pronounce that territory stolen by violence and intimidation by Zionist emigres from its indigenous Palestinian population could be kept and held by the conquerors.

To be 'legitimate, ie., "authorized, sanctioned by, or in accordance with law ("A legitimate government") Israel had to be in accordance with the law, the law being the brand new UN Charter. It was, is, not. It won't even surrender the territories it siseized in '48, 53[?], '67, and '73, even though the charter clearly states that it holds them illegally and illegitimately. Instead it fills them with 'settlers' and builds walls through them. No thief holds stolen property legitimately, no matter what any crooked judge may say.



No more than a robber, coming into a house, has the right to keep the valuables he has stolen at gunpoint, just because the Mafia [read USA] terrorized and bribed the neighbours into agreeing to let the crime pass unchecked, unreversed, and unpunished.

Jakers

To have been "re-established" it must have been a legitimate nation state at one time, but became, 'dis-established". Just when was that? To my admittedly limited knowledge, "the land of Israel" was never ever and actual political state, but rather a mental construct central to the Judaic tradition.

Heck, every guerilla resistance or insurgency is a 'terrorist' organization. The Zionists should know, because it was the terrorist tactics of the Haganah and other Zionists paramilitaries [see, Stern Gang] that has acted as the template for Palestinian terrorist insurgent resistance fighters ever since.

Without terrorism, [killing both Palestians and the British], the Jews would never have garnered the territory that became Israel in 1948, and nor that which has been added to Israel since that time. Especialy the territorial war Israel provoked in 1967. Don't play "holier than thou" with someone who has read some history.


That's their opinion. So what? They have right to believe what they believe, just as you and I. Israel has something similar, no doubt.

Personally religious justifications tend to turn me off, but that applies to Zionists as well, be they Jewish or xtianish.

They may not be 'embodied' in that dubious document, but their are plenty of other Zionist writings, from Herzl to the present, where the principles of Zionsm [you call it "the Jewish people's", which is false, first, because those are not Hamas' words, and second, since at a least a few Jews are still anti-Zionist].

No, it is some Jews secular political expression.

See above. Israel never had any "area of historic roots". It was an idea, a concept of a religious group, never a country. There were a succession of political entities in the ME that contained that religious group, among others, but there was never any exclusively Hebrew Judaic state. the closest to that being the Kingdom of Judah, as best I remember. Feel free to rehearse my jewish history, as I've never put a lot of study into it. Anyway, anything that even resembled the ideal of "Israel" existed at at least 2,700 years ago, I believe? Let's get real, shall we? That gives the gives the Israeli's no right to march in from romania or whereever and say, "Hey, people, we only stepped out for a minute and now we're back home, so clear off, there's a good Palestinian.".



So justify that opinion.I justified the "blame Israel first" position. You could at least try to support your opinions.

Firstly, the Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, are Semitic themselves, as that label was originally applied to that Newr Eastern population. Whether the blond and blue-eyed imigrant Jews should be so classified is moot, but nevermind, trying to label every critic of every Israeli/Zionist crime "anti-semitic" debases that charge and brands the accuser a bigot. Next you'll be telling us that anyone who ever called Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lansky vicious gangsters is also an 'anti-semitic. That accusation, like "communist" and "pinko" used to cow and silence people once upon a time, but that bucket has been to the well too often, and now the bottom is falling out.

Calling me, and other critics of Israeli inhumanity, 'anti-semites' and 'hatemongers', may get us kicked off of Zionist moderated message boards, but it won't change the truth of what we say.

Change "Jewish" to "Palestinian", and that statement is still just as true.

Whether or not Israel has ever made that official statement, it was very much a part of Zionism, and is still part and parcel of the belief system of certain [mostly right-wing US Jews] to this day. From Wiki--
"Greater Israel occasionally refers to the Promised Land (defined in Genesis 15:18-21) or to the Land of Israel, and is also called Complete Land of Israel or "Entire Land of Israel" (Hebrew: ארץ ישראל השלמה‎, Eretz Yisrael Hashlemah). This is a more accurate translation than "Greater" Israel, which is used in English but has no real counterpart in Hebrew.

The Bible contains three geographical definitions of the Land of Israel. The first, found in Genesis 15:18-21, is vague. It describes a large territory, "from the Nile to the Euphrates", comprising all of modern-day Israel, the Palestinian Territories, and Lebanon, as well as large parts of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

Nuff said.

donsutherland1

After Israel was re-established in 1948, it was the Arab armies that launched an invasion in a bid to extinguish the new nation. Israel won that war.

Israel didn't initiate that war. Had the Arab representatives taken a moderate course and cooperated with UNSCOP, much of the 1948 war would not have occurred and the tragic history that followed the 1948 war would not have been necessary. Had Yasser Arafat had the courage and foresight to accept President Clinton's bridging proposal of December 2000, there could have been a sovereign Palestinian state today. Bad Arab leadership in 1948, bad Palestinian leadership in late 2000 and early 2001, and the presence of extremist organizations such as Hamas are the reason the historic dispute persists today.

So long as Palestinians view compromise as "defeat," they will not gain a sovereign state of their own. Hopefully, pragmatists within the Palestinian Authority will embrace compromise so that a two-state solution can become viable and stability return to the region.

The island of Sri Lanka is home to Sinhalese, Sri Lankan Moors, Indian Tamils, and Sri Lankan Tamils. The Palestine region was home to Arabs and Jews, both of whom had historic roots in the region and shared historic legitimacy.

That's irrelevant to the Palestine issue. There had never been a sovereign Palestinian state. Jews had a longstanding historic presence in the region. Jewish immigrants were admitted legally by the Ottoman Empire and later British Empire. Legal immigrants have full legal standing.

The Sinhalese had dominated. The Tamils assert that they have not enjoyed the privileges held by the majority Sinhalese.

Like many developing countries, there have been some inequities. However, those inequities have little relevance to the Israel.

Just as is the case with Israel, there is no desire for ethnic cleansing. Not surprisingly, Sri Lanka remains home to a Tamil minority population and Israel remains home to a minority Arab population.

The UN violated no aspects of its Charter. If Israel were illegitimate, the Arab state proposed under partition have been just as illegitimate. The fact is that the British Mandate was coming to an end and the UN was confronted with the issue of how to bring sovereignty to the region. Given that the area's two peoples had irreconcilable differences and were engaged in a low-level ethnic conflict, a single state solution was not viable. Such a solution would, more than likely, have been a recipe for a blood bath. The most practical approach was a partition plan that respected each of the two peoples' equality in their right of self determination. A core tenet of the UN Charter is the principle of "equal rights and self-determination of peoples." The partition plan was wholly consistent with the UN Charter. A single state solution that would have placed one people's rights as superior to that of the other people would have violated the Charter.

First, the territories were captured in defensive wars. Second, Israel is not seeking to maximize its territory. Israel has returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt. Israel attempted to return virtually all of the Golan Heights to Syria, but Syria rejected that peace agreement. Israel attempted to give the Palestinians 97% of the West Bank, 100% of the Gaza Strip, and virtually all of East Jerusalem (except for the Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site). Yasser Arafat squandered that opportunity.

donsutherland1

According to the Library of Congress' Country Study on Israel:

The conquest of Canaan under the generalship of Joshua took place over several decades... For a long time the various tribes of Israel controlled the higher, less desirable lands, and only with the advent of David did the kingdoms of Israel and Judah come into being with a capital in Jerusalem.

There is abundant archaeological evidence to bolster the biblical account of ancient Israel.

The Jewish leadership chose to cooperate with UNSCOP. The Arab leadership refused to do so. Ultimately, the Jewish leadership abandoned their desire for the entire region and agreed to partition. That leadership was instrumental in Israel's evolving into a modern, free, and democratic state.

It's more than opinion. Hamas' actions have demonstrated that Hamas remains committed to its Charter's ambition of Israel's destruction. Hence, Hamas' rejectionism is an enormous barrier to peace, as it rules out diplomacy and the compromises necessary for a two-state solution.

Israel, on the other hand, accepted President Clinton's bridging proposal. Its actions have demonstrated that it holds no positions that are remotely like Hamas' rejectionism.

The quotes I provided were Hamas' words. They were taken directly from Hamas' Charter.

With all due respect, that is utter nonsense. Archaeological evidence debunks that myth. Ancient writings that predate the modern Arab-Israeli dispute e.g., from Josephus, refute it. I suggest that you visit the library to read relevant sections of The Cambridge History of Judaism. Then, you will discover that the region was the ancestral home of the Jewish people.

I made no comments whatsoever that Arabs are not a Semitic people. Anti-Semitism, however, has come to refer to bias against the Jewish people. The term can be found at: anti-semitism definition | Dictionary.com. I use the term in a fashion consistent with its generally-accepted usage.

I did not refer to you as an anti-Semite. Name-calling does not bolster arguments.

By accepting President Clinton's bridging proposal, Israel's government made clear that official Israeli policy was not aimed at restoring Eretz Israel. Israel's government has never taken the position that Israel should hold all the land between the Euphrates and Nile Rivers. As noted previously, Israel's returning the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt and its accepting President Clinton's bridging proposal highlighted the reality that Israel's official policy does not seek an Israel that covers the territory you described.

justone

Jakers,
***** ***** ** *** ****
Sure European civilization is an evil to you. It has been establishing itself with the help of the sword. It has been guarding itself with the help of the sword. It has its laws and they are supported by the sword. Your laments of a criminal about cruelty of a cop and illegitimacy of the laws and their unfairness towards you and your tribal Amazonian or Kenyan traditions are as old as the Western civilization.

Sorry, if you sold you land for a bottle of whiskey you cannot claim it back when you sober up on the next morning, however white and Arian you are. Sorry, if you take justice in your own hand and shoot a stone arrow in the new landowner you will be hung and your property will be confiscated. If you go to jail for committing a crime, do not expect that your house will not be repossessed.

Sorry, the ME east belonged to GB, France and ???, not to Arabs or Jews. That was the decision of the European civilization. Arabs/Muslims has been attacking the West (and each other) for centuries, - they had their will and their chance to establish the Arab civilization, - with the sword, through murder, genocide and robbery. They can have their lament in the same way as German Nazis and then Neonazis could and can have their lament about German territories. 1948? Does Balfour Declaration of 1917 ring a bell? The lament of both Jews and Arabs had been heard, the decision was made by the land owners.
-----------
1500 The Shiite Safavids under Shah Ismail established themselves in Persia (Iran). Shiite Islam became the official religion of Persia. From 1501 until 1722, the Safavids ruled Iran and parts of Iraq.
1508 The Safavids captured Baghdad.
1514 War between the Safavids and the Ottomans. The Safavids aligned themselves with the Austrian Hapsburgs against the Ottomans.
1517 The Ottomans captured Egypt and Syria. An Ottoman protectorate was established over the holy places in Arabia. Palestine fell under Ottoman control and remained so until 1917.
1520 -1566 Reign of the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman I, "The Magnificent." The Ottoman Empire reached its height in his reign. Among his many achievements was the wall surrounding the old city of Jerusalem, built in 1542.
1521 Martin Luther was excommunicated. Beginning of the Protestant Reformations. The same year, the Ottomans reached Belgrade.
1526 - 1707 The Muslim Mughal Empire began in India under Babur (1483-1530) who led invading Muslims into India from central Asia .. The Mughal Empire slipped into decline after 1658, the result of repressive laws aimed at Hindus.
1529 The Ottomans stormed Vienna for the first time.
1531 Second Ottoman siege of Vienna.
1535 The Ottomans captured Baghdad, Tripolitania, Tunisia, and Algiers.
1542 Portuguese traders reached Japan.
1546 The Ottomans established direct rule over Basra (in southern Iraq)
ca. 1550 Publication of Reprobatio Quadruplex ("Four-fold Damnation"), attributed to John of Wales by tradition, but probably the work of a Spanish Dominican monk whose mission was to arm Christian polemicists with arguments to use in debates with Muslims on which of the two religions was superior. (See "Wars of Words and Images")
1551 Libya was absorbed into the Ottoman Empire.
1556 - 1605 Akbar the Great, building on the conquests of Babur (1483-1530) who led invading Muslims into India from central Asia, consolidated and established the Mughal Empire in India. This Empire lasted until 1707. In 1556, construction was completed on the Babri Masjid mosque in Ayodhya, erected on the site of a Hindu shrine designating the birthplace of the Hindu avatar Ram. This set the stage for violent conflicts between Hindus and Muslims in the future, especially in 1993 (following the destruction of the mosque in 1992) and in 2002.
1560 The Battle of Djerba (an island of the coast of Tunisia): the Ottomans overwhelmed a huge joint European fleet sinking half its ships.
1571 The Battle of Lepanto: On October 7, a naval battle took place at the mouth of the Gulf of Patras off Lepanto, Greece between the fleet of the Holy League under the command of John of Austria and the Ottoman fleet under the command of Uluç Ali Pasha. The Ottoman fleet was almost completely wiped out. This was the first major defeat of the Ottomans by a Christian military force.
1593 -1606 Ottoman wars against the Hapsburgs.
1600 The East India Tea Company was founded in England.
1601 English playwright William Percy published his play Mahomet and His Heaven, but the play was never performed. A new edition edited by Matthew Dimmock was published in the UK in 2007. Any depiction of the Prophet Muhammad at all was regarded by orthodox Muslims as blasphemy
1607 The first permanent English settlement in America was established at Jamestown,
1623-1624 The Safavids [Iranians]attacks against Ottoman controlled areas of Iraq gaining control over the northern Kurdish areas, Baghdad, and the holy Shia cities of Najaf and Karbala. The Ottomans had gone into Baghdad to crush a rebellion led by Janissary officer Bakr Subashi, who then appealed to the Safavid ruler Shah Abbas I for aid. Abbas captured Baghdad for the Safavids in January, 1624 as well as other areas of Iraq. The Ottomans recaptured Baghdad in 1638 and a treaty with the Safavids in 1639 ended a century of off and on conflict.
1641 This year, sandwiched between the second and third Ottoman sieges of Vienna, Michel Baudier, court historian to French King Louis XIII, employed the phrase “dirty delicacies” to describe the Muslim enemy in his book Histoire générale de la Religion des Turcs
1658-1707 Reign of Mughal emperor Aurangzeb who reversed Mughal policies of conciliation toward Hindus and began promoting Muslim supremacy. In 1668 he banned music at court and imposed the jizya poll tax on non-Muslims
1784 An American ship, the Betsey, was seized by Moroccan privateers in the Mediterranean Sea. This was the first in a series of skirmishes that came to be known as "The Barbary Wars." (See ahead 1801.)

1791 Under the terms of the Treaty of Sistova, the Ottoman Empire agreed to return captured Austrian slaves to Austria

1801 Two months after the inauguration of Thomas Jefferson as President, Tripoli (Libya) declared war on the United States because the Americans had refused to pay tribute to raiding Arab corsairs

1820 The British concluded pacts with Gulf region Arab sheikhs.
1820 -1823 Muhammad Ali conquered the Sudan.
1821 - 1829 The Greek war of independence from the Turks (also).
1832 Ibrahim, son of Muhammad Ali, invaded Syria, challenging Ottoman authority in that region. The Egyptians founded the city of Khartoum in the Sudan.
1840 On August 16, Britain's Lord Palmerston sent Muhammad Ali an ultimatum demanding the withdrawal of Egyptian forces from Syria. The Pasha refused to comply. The British fleet began bombarding Beirut on September 11
1841 Muhammad Ali's peace treaty with the British and the Ottomans stripped him of his empire save Egypt itself and the Sudan. Henceforth, Egypt's economy became an export market for agricultural goods: raw materials were exported to Europe for manufacture into finished products that were then sold back to Egypt.

1854 - 1855 The Crimean War: The Ottoman Empire and its allies, Britain and France, made war on Russia. The struggle was sparked by the Russia's occupation of Romania, an attempt to defend Christian interests in Ottoman occupied territories. Russia was defeated.
1856 - 1857 The Anglo-Iranian War: Britain fought to protect links with India through Iran. In 1857, the British won a concession from the Shah to install a telegraph line across Iran to link Great Britain with its colony India to the east.

1860 Armed conflict between Maronite Christians and Druze (an offshoot of Muslim Shia) in Lebanon led to French intervention. Connections between France and the Maronites went back to Crusader times. The current troubles started when the governor Ibrahim, son of Muhammad Ali, instituted policies that altered the balance of power between the religious groups in the Mount Lebanon area.


1867 A new Ottoman land and tax reform measure changed the pattern of land ownership in Palestine (that is to say well in advance of Zionism: extensive Jewish investment and colonization in Palestine did not begin until after 1882). This was the second of two land reform initiatives (the first was in 1858).
Palestinian farmers who had the opportunity and the means to buy land under the reforms chose not to out of fear of landing on the tax rolls and of becoming subject to military conscription. So, many Christians moved in to buy up the land instead. Peasants continued to farm the land but were willing to let ownership pass into the hands of big landowners. Thus occurred a gap or break between peasants and the lands they farmed. Most of the landowners were Palestinian notables or Christians from coastal regions. Titles and deeds, then, ended up in the hands of a relatively small number of owners while the peasants continued to assume they had rights to live on the lands and cultivate them. Since many of the landowners lived in Beirut, subsequent sales of lands to Jewish immigrants were less visible to those who were actually living on them. Journalistic opposition to Zionist colonization first emerged among Palestinian Christians (not Muslims) before World War I.

to be continued, - history is long

justone

continiued

1875 Faced with bankruptcy, Egypt's Khedive Ismail sold Egypt's shares in the Suez Canal Company to Britain.
1878 Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid II dissolved the parliament and abolished the constitution. The Russo-Turkish War ended with the Treaty of San Stefano: the Turks lost control of Rumania, Bulgaria, and Thrace.

1881 a nationalist revolt against rising European influence in Egypt led by an army colonel, Urabi Bey, under the slogan, "Egypt for the Egyptians!" This prompted the landing of a British and French occupation force the following year.

1881 Pogroms in Russia in 1881 sparked the first wave of Jewish immigration into Palestine. Between 1881and 1885, Muhammad Ahmed al-Mahdi led a successful revolt against Egypt in the Sudan.

1882 British and French forces landed at Alexandria to occupy the city and protect Europeans. Urabi was exiled to Ceylon (known after 1972 as Sri Lanka). Also in 1882, the first Aliyah ("ascension"), the first well-organized wave of Jewish immigration into Palestine, took place. The First Aliyah consisted of individuals and small groups, mainly under the inspiration of "Hibbat Zion" ("Love of Zion," an organization of Russian Jews) and the BILU movement, an organization of mostly students from eastern Europe.

1886 In France, Edouard Drumont published his book, Jewish France, arguing that the influence of Jews on France had been destructive. Drumont called for the ejection of the Jews from the country and the division of Jewish property. Anti-Semitic rallies followed.
1891 In Iran, Shah Nasir al-Din's harem erupted into open rebellion against him: his 1,600 wives, concubines, and eunuchs swore an oath to renounce the smoking of tobacco in protest against oppressive taxation and the Shah's arbitrary confiscation of private fortunes. During the Shah's forty year reign of prodigal spending Iran had gone bankrupt. He had begun selling "concessions" to foreign interests (largely British) to make up the shortfall.

1902 The Saudis recaptured their home town of Riyadh from the rival Rashidi tribe.
1905 The Saudis under King Ibn Saud (reigned 1901-1953) secured control over the Arabian peninsula by signing a peace treaty with the Ottomans.

1907 Britain and Russia divided Iran into "spheres of interest." France and Spain divided Morocco:
From 1908 until 1922 there was almost constant warfare in the Ottoman Empire and Turkey.
1909 Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid II was deposed following the suppression of an Ottoman counter revolt.
1910 Albania rose up against Ottoman rule.
1912 The Ottomans ceded Libya to the Italians.
1913, a Philippine-American expedition under the command of U.S. General John ("Black Jack") Pershing mounted a campaign in Zamboanga against seafaring Muslims who had been kidnapping Christians for ransom.
1914 The Ottomans entered World War I on the side of Germany. Enver Pasha (age 31) was the Minister of War. Eager to forge an alliance with a European power to protect Turkey from Great Britain and to regain Egypt from Great Britain and the Caucasus Mountains from Russia, Enver on August 1, the eve of the war, made a secret pact with Germany. The Turks conspired with the Germans to attack Russia. Russia then declared war on Turkey, and the British and the French, Russia's allies, followed suit. The Ottomans proclaimed a jihad against Britain, France, and Russia… pushing Turkey into a war it did not need to fight, Enver sealed the fate of the entire Middle East
-------------
You are a raging anti-Semite, as the term is correctly used, - those who hate Jews, even if Palestinians are technically Semites, too. If you were not, you wouldn’t be splitting a hair on the term, you would try to look into real history. ‘’Don't try shuffling off 100 years of conquest, appropriation, dominance, and robbery on Hamas, simply because they make some pathetic effort to prove that their vastly more powerful invader has not yet totally cowed, subdued, and enslaved them.’’ Only raging anti_semite could write such a nonsense, were not even a word reflects the truth, but all words are twisting the truth. “”Enslaved? Cowed? Subdued?’’. Nothing except for hatred could bother those who call themselves palestininas to enjoy freedoms, eqality, hard labor and products of their own hard labor in Israel. They could prosper more than the majority of those who call themselves Palestinians do in Jordan. Why the majority does not claim their land from Jordan?

As one can see Muslims has been calling troubles upon themselves for centuries. Their colonization brought slavery, murder and genocide to the colonized, while European colonists brought Trade, telephone, rail roads, commerce, and printing presses.

As it can be seen from historical and legal records those who call themselves Palestinians have neither legal nor legitimate right on any state or territory. Those who ever owned any territory legally and legitimately gave up their rights voluntarily, living for the war with the legal and legitimate state of Israel. They have lesser legal and legitimate right to claim any territory than Saddam Hussein had the right to claim Kuwait as the legitimate territory of Iraq. He had the same reasoning and references as you do.


If there is something Jews are guilty of it is election of Obama and Obama like efforts to represent/make the UN some kind of a world government that can ever supersede the US government. They are full of rosy but shiity ideas. They fight Arabs but they want all kind of Arab and African tribes to rule the US.

Your call to elimination of the state of Israel, - as I see it is the only conclusion that can be drawn from your tripe, - has no rational, but only a blind hatred behind it. It is also can be seen clear, that even if to imagine that you could succeed in achieving your goal, - you will not stop, you need to get back to the evil for all your failures in the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. No concessions should be made to you, you can be dealt with only with a help of the sword. Jews are protecting not only themselves, but also my civilization. And it seems the west slowly comes to understanding of such a fact, while the US elects Obama. You have scored on Obama, but on other end you may loose Russia, it is not the USSR anymore. Even if Obama forces Russia to ally with you, don’t expect it to be a choice desirable by Russia.
.....
.....
It seems I will never get to my promise to tear donsutherland1 apart and make him helplessly ban me… First it was Billo, now it is you.

.... Don, don’t relax, it is coming – sooner or later.

Jessica

I always have this feeling when it comes to war that we are never getting the entire story.

__________________

Jakers

[QUOTE=donsutherland1;1057871438]After Israel was re-established in 1948,[quote]

You sure like to imply that the State of Israel had undergone nothing more than a temporary interruption of service, don't you? Heck, historical facts don't matter when you're selling the world a bill of goods, I guess.

It was the Zionist Haganah [sp.?] terrorists who be looting, burning and killing Palestinians at the mom,ent of declaration who started the bloodshed. They had their guns blazing long before any external arab armies even got their socks on. Try telling the history the way it actually went down. If you're capable of such a thing.


Some say that war isn't over yet, but never mind. Who cares that Israel won the fight the fight the Zionists started in the late 1800's? That doesn't give the Zionists, or Israel, if its possible to distinguish the two, any bonus points on the side of righteousness. It just means that that they were better organized and way better armed. And that's been the story right up this latest butchery in Gaza. What's the tally on dead Palestinian women, children, and non-combatants this time? So far? Self-defense my patootie.


You aren't listening. The Zionist terror squads had been at war with both the Palestinians and the British overseers for years. They started a war that the neighbours joined in on at the point where the state of Israel was given illegitimate recognition thanks to US pressure, and after the Zionists, no longer even mildy restrained by the British Army, went after more territory then even the UN had granted them. So yes, they did so initiate that war.

On the basis of what historical facts do you get to make this pronouncement?
Sounds to me like your making up fairy stories. After all, if this were true, the hundreds of thousands of refugees would have been allowed to return, without finding their property seized by Zionists with no compensation, and they wouldn't still be in refugee camps 60 years later.

You really have no idea what the "terms" were for that "agreement", do you?
There was absolutely no way any Palestinian could have accepted them, no matter how much thethe USA threatened and bullied and bribed.

Yeah, bad victims every time. It's always their fault, isn't it. They're always the ones to blame.


So long as Israel insists on keeping land and water it has no right to have, so long as the policy of a "Jewish State" with a a Palestinian/arab underclass persists, then yes, any accomodation with the Zionists is a defeat for the indigenous peoples of that land.


The last "2-state" solutions I saw Israel/USA offer was the Bantuization of Palestinian "reservations" separated from each other geographically intruding strips of Israeli territory. Ask the Sioux, the Cherokee, and the Apache, not to mention the Zulu et al, just how that little deal worked out for them. You want peace? Get back to the original borders established by the UN in 1948, before the ensuing landgrab, and let the Palestinians out of the camps and back in their own country. Whoops, I forgot. The ultra-right wing settlers in the illegal settlements won't even let those go without bloodshed, even if it means killing their own soldiers to hang on to their stolen properties and luxurious lifestyle. Guess we can forget all about anything like a fair 2-state solution, now or ever.

All this dealing with your historical distortion of what truly was done to the indigenous people of Palestine is turning my stomach. I have to take a break and get this sour taste out of my mouth.

Jakers

Justone;

Do you really think that your long litany of human aggression and man's inhumanity to man somehow lends moral justification to what the Europeans did and are still doing to the Arabs, particularly the Palestianans? "Hey, evil is OK so long as everybody is doing it."; is that your rationale? Might confers right?

Or do moral and ethical issues wrt human interaction mean nothing to you. Just a dog eat dog world of "Natural Selection", of "winners" vs "losers", of dominance and subjection? Sounds like it, which would put you right in line with the US right-wing "value" system, where "property rights" override every and all human consideration.

And, BTW, as a strong anti-zionist [you boys like to call us 'anti-semites', thanks to the right-wing nazi connotations involved] you know as well as I that the pro-Zionist "moderators" on this BB are going to trump up an excuse to ban me long before they even entertain a passing fancy to ban you. You're safe at home, here.

PS--when you download a website, it's common courtesy to supply a link, just so we can assess the authorship, if nothing else.

Tashah

You will ban yourself. Stupid is as stupid does.

__________________