'No one is above the law in Israel'

donsutherland1 · 05-30-08, 12:02 AM

From today's edition of the Jerusalem Post:

The corruption case against Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has earned Israel tremendous respect throughout the Arab world, where many have called on their leaders to benefit from Israel's democratic system and independent judicial system...

Over the past week, the corruption case against Olmert received wide coverage in the mainstream Arab media, prompting an outcry about the need for transparency and accountability in the Arab world...

The complete story can be found at: 'No one is above the law in Israel' | Jerusalem Post

PeteEU · 05-30-08, 06:40 AM

Err he still in power, and refusing to step down last I heard.. hence what's the difference between Israel and the arab world.. that there was an investigation? What good is an investigation when there is no result from it?

Tashah · 05-31-08, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteEU

Err he still in power, and refusing to step down last I heard.. hence what's the difference between Israel and the arab world.. that there was an investigation? What good is an investigation when there is no result from it?

Err... he has not been formally indicted yet. Do you understand at all how justice works in a democracy?

Politically, it works out this way. Olmert can voluntarily step down and be replaced by another Kadima official until the next general election. His replacement would probably be FM Tzipi Livni.

A "no-confidence" vote in the Knesset or Olmert is indicted. Either scenario would no doubt result in Binyamin Netanyahu as the next Israeli PM.

Somewhat understandably, the Palestinians want neither of the above possibilities to transpire. They insulted Livni when she visited the settlement negotiations, and Netanyahu leans very far to the right.

donsutherland1 · 05-31-08, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tashah

Err... he has not been formally indicted yet.

Very well said, Tashah. The presence of allegations and the undertaking of an investigation into allegations is quite different from an indictment, much less a conviction.

Iriemon · 05-31-08, 08:24 AM

Still, the point in the OP is a valid one, IMO.

Ultimately, the best way to spread democracy and the rule of law by sticking to its principles and demonstrating its benefits; as opposed to abandoning parts of it to justify trying to shove it down a nation's throat.

Jenin · 05-31-08, 08:54 AM

I have a different take... I think this is a huge sherade inorder to delay the peace negotiations and effectively stop them. Israel wants to impose it's own solution to the palestinian problem, and they have effectively done so since the earliest days of the Yishuv. Olmert's continuing excuse to Condi regarding Israel's extremely slow implementation of lifting checkpoints, easing the seige, ect., is that he is under immense pressure from all sides of the government. In the meantime, Bibi the enemy of peace getting ready to move in and take over as P.M. Barak will probably concede defeat early given Labor's constant decline since 2000.

Sharon once commented on the Gaza disengagement:
[i]"The Gaza withdrawal would allow Israel to delay negotiations, and a Palestinian state, until such time that their leadership abandons violence. The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

Ariel Sharon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ofcourse, Olmert was sharon's right hand man... and he took over the Kadima after god's token gift for the palestinians, sharon the butcher having a stroke.

The jerusalem post used to be called the Palestine post until Israel's establishment.

700,000 or 25% of palestinians have been detained by Israel since 1967. Kangaroo trials, indefinite illegal detention of thousands for years without contact with attorneys or family, torture and humiliation. Surely no palestinian is above Israel's racist laws.

Lets not forget extrajudicial killings, american made f-16s bombarding innocent civilians that murder and maim and accomplish the israeli 'justice' of killing 'suspected' enemies of the state along with their children, bretheren, neighbors and parents. wonderful justice.

Life for jews in Israel is good, (at the cost of palestinian blood, water, land and freedom ofcourse...) The democratic process (putting aside my suspicion of slimy zionist capitalist nwo "democracy") is to be envied. The arab dictators, uncle sam's lapdogs, are a little more worried now that they see that zionist murderers are indeed better than them in representing the interests of their people of interest.

donsutherland1 · 05-31-08, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenin

I have a different take... I think this is a huge sherade inorder to delay the peace negotiations and effectively stop them. Israel wants to impose it's own solution to the palestinian problem...

I strongly disagree with this conspiracist outlook. There is no credible evidence that the investigation was launched primarily or wholly to impede negotiations.

The fact is, negotiations are ongoing. Prime Minister Olmert's tenure has not come to an end. He may yet remain in office for months (or longer, if he is not indicted). Foreign Minister Livni--the likely successor at the head of Kadima--has also been pragmatic. The Palestinians still have time to reach for compromises even before a possible end of Prime Minister Olmert's tenure. Will they show flexibility necessary to reach agreement?

To date, if one accepts some of the news accounts published in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post, both credible newspapers, Israel has made the Palestinians two substantive offers concerning the West Bank. First, it offered 88% of the West Bank exclusive of land swaps. The Palestinians rejected that offer. Israel then offered 91.5% of the West Bank exclusive of land swaps. The Palestinians rejected that offer.

The Palestinians have yet to provide a counteroffer. If they are intent on reaching a negotiated outcome, they should do so. Moreover, they need to take a step in Israel's direction to reciprocate for the step Israel has taken in their direction. It will be a convergence of positions that offers the best prospects of an agreement. Palestinians' waiting for Israel to meet their demands will likely preclude such an outcome as Israel's proverbial "red lines" likely fall short of the opening Palestinian demands.

Having said that, I also believe the differences between the two sides are too great to be overcome in a year and that the notion of reaching a final settlement or outline of a final settlement before the end of 2008 was always unrealistic. A more modest interim arrangement, which would be feasible, would represent a more productive approach.

Jenin · 06-01-08, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donsutherland1

[left]

I strongly disagree with this conspiracist outlook. There is no credible evidence that the investigation was launched primarily or wholly to impede negotiations.

There is credible and comprehensive evidence that Israel is not negotiating in good faith, and is looking for a way out of talking to the palestinians. The Americans and Europeans are begining to catch on to this, and international observers are on the ground in occupied palestine.

For the last two years, Israel has completely rejected a mutual ceasefire with Hamas, and has only increased the blockade and murder bombing of the strip to prolong the violent conflict and excuse itself of it's international obligations to withdraw from occupied palestine.

The olmert government is intensifying settler colony construction in the west bank, especially in east jerusalem where they are placing "facts on the ground" changing the ancient palestinian demography of occupied east jerusalem.

Quote:

The fact is, negotiations are ongoing.

Mahmoud Abbas, international monitors, and everyone BUT Israel have confirmed that Israel is not engaging in good faith negotiations. Continuing the seige of palestinians and building new colonies and expanding them on palestinian land during negotiations is the Israeli tactic to impede the creation of a viable palestinian state. Thankfully, the world is coming to understand this.

Ariel Sharon's admission that the Gaza disengement is a plan to end a political process with the palestinians is another fine credible example. Ehud olmert succeeding sharon as head of the Kadima and PM, intensifying the Aparteid wall and settler colony construction is a clear example of Israel imposing by force the bantustan project they want for a palestinian state.

Just this week, we see in occupied and beseiged Billin:

The West Bank village of Bil'in has become famous for several years now as the site of weekly protests against the construction of the wall. The route of the wall separates the village itself from 60% of its farmland (mostly olive groves). The weekly protests are themselves non-violent, they but have often met with violent responses on the part of the Israeli military, which is adopting an increasingly belligerent attitude towards the protests.

Last September, the Israeli Supreme Court decided in favor of the protesters, ruling that the route of the wall needs to be moved further west. This would restore 250 acres of farmland to the village. It was an unexpected legal victory. However, as is reported in the piece below, not only has the Israeli military failed to comply with this ruling, Israeli settlers (under the protection of the Israeli army) have started construction on the farmlands legally belonging to Bil'in (expanding the nearby settlement).

The Supreme Court ruling changing the route of the wall was celebrated as a victory for tactics of non-violent resistance. The failure of the Israeli army to enforce this ruling will be (at best) a discouragement for such tactics, and more likely an incitement to future violence.

For more information see: Bil'in - News
Norman G. Finkelstein

Quote:

The Palestinians have yet to provide a counteroffer.

That is unsubstantiated. It is a lie. Palestinian negotiators have called for a compromise that includes a very limited return of refugees, a 1:1 land swap for all settler colonies on occupied palestinian land agreed to be kept by Israel , and the return of East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine excluding the wailing wall which will be under Israeli sovereignty.

There are people who know the reality, and what is happening, and Israel will never be secure pursuing murder and theft in the OPT.

donsutherland1 · 06-01-08, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenin

For the last two years, Israel has completely rejected a mutual ceasefire with Hamas...

The Hamas terrorist group has consistently refused to accept the Madrid Quartet's conditions (recognition of Israel, end to violence, respect of existing diplomatic agreements). Furthermore, the terrorist organization has refused to end all arms smuggling into the Gaza Strip.

Quote:

Mahmoud Abbas, international monitors, and everyone BUT Israel have confirmed that Israel is not engaging in good faith negotiations.

Do you have any news accounts that report that the Madrid Quartet (the international entity overseeing the Middle East peace process) has declared unequivocally that Israel is not negotiating in good faith in the post-Annapolis peace discussions?

Quote:

That is unsubstantiated... Palestinian negotiators have called for a compromise that includes a very limited return of refugees, a 1:1 land swap for all settler colonies on occupied palestinian land agreed to be kept by Israel , and the return of East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine excluding the wailing wall which will be under Israeli sovereignty.

I referred to a counteroffer in response to Israel's changed offers. I am well familiar with the opening position/offer that you described. However, since that time, Israel has increased the amount of land in the West Bank that it is willing to give the Palestinians to 91.5% from 88%. What changes have the Palestinians made in their initial offer e.g., have they reduced the share of the West Bank they request to, let's say, 95% (a purely hypothetical figure for illustrative purposes only)? Just as Israel takes steps toward the Palestinian positions, the Palestinians should take steps toward Israel's positions. That way the positions can converge and a compromise can become feasible.

Beyond land allocations, one will likely see the Palestinians offered some foothold in east Jerusalem. However, the idea of Israel admitting Palestinians to within its borders is a non-starter. Palestinians will be able to settle in the new Palestinian state that would be created and a measure of compensation would also be provided.

Tashah · 06-20-08, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenin

I have a different take... I think this is a huge sherade inorder to delay the peace negotiations and effectively stop them.

Most ME Arabs are finally noticing Israel for its democratic ways and its system of law that applies to ALL Israelis. Excerpts from the JP article...

Quote:

"Show me one Arab or Islamic country where a prime minister or a senior government official was ever questioned for financial corruption or bribery," said a reader who identified himself only as Majed.

Majed, like many others, was responding to a news story on an Arab Web site about the testimony in court of American philanthropist Morris Talansky, who told police he had given Olmert more than $150,000 in cash over the course of some 14 years.

Another reader, Sami, commented: "The Israeli regime with all its defects is better than all the Arab 'democracies' and still changes ministers and governments every few years."

A Saudi national named Abdel Karim urged his Arab brethren to stop criticizing Israel and learn something about its democracy. "Before we curse Israel, we must learn from the democratic and judicial system in Israel, where no one is above the law," he wrote.

Khaled, another Saudi national, chimed in: "Although we are talking about Israel, which I have always hated very much, there is still no one above the law there."

Mahmoud al-Bakili of Yemen posted the following response on one of the Web sites: "We want this kind of accountability and transparency in the Arab and Islamic world."

And there was this comment from an Arab who described himself as a Syrian Voice: "Despite my strong hatred for the Zionist regime, I have a lot of admiration and respect for this entity because there is no one above the law. In the Arab world, laws are broken every day and no one seems to care."

Egyptian writer Abdel Aziz Mahmoud said he doesn't believe the day will ever come when an Arab leader will be put on trial for sexual harassment or financial corruption.

"I don't think we will live to see the day when the police interrogate an Arab leader for sexually harassing his secretary or receiving bribes," he wrote. "Nor will our children and grandchildren live to see that day. What happened in Israel can never happen in any Arab country."

Some Arabs went as far as condemning the Arab people for failing to rise against their corrupt dictators.

"There is corruption in Israel and the Arab world," wrote Abu Hadi from Iraq. "But the difference is that the Israelis hold their leaders accountable, while we the Arabs remain silent about corruption."

Jamal, who described himself as the Madman, wrote that "the reason why Israel has lasted for so long is because of its independent and fair judicial system. I challenge the Arabs to have such an independent judicial system."

Many of the readers found it quite ironic that Olmert was being questioned because of "only" tens of thousands of dollars he allegedly received from Talansky.

"They say he received something like $3,000 a year," said Abu Atab from Morocco inaccurately. "This shows that Olmert is a decent man. This is a small sum that any Arab government official would receive on a daily basis as a bribe. Our leaders steal millions of dollars and no one dares to hold them accountable."

Touching on the same issue, a reader from Algeria posted this comment: "In the Arab world, our leaders don't accept less than $1 million in bribes; the money must be deposited in secret bank accounts in Switzerland. Olmert is a fool if he took only a small sum."

Another comment, this time from Ahmed in Jordan, also referred to the alleged amount: "Only a few thousand dollars? What a fool! This is what an Egyptian minister gets in a day or what a Saudi CEO gets in 45 minutes, or a Kuwaiti government official in five minutes. This is what the physician of the emir of Qatar gets every 30 seconds."

One Arab commentator who identified himself as Jasser Abdel Hamid advised Olmert to seek citizenship of one of the Arab countries. "Why don't you seek Arab citizenship?" he asked sarcastically. "There you can take as much money as you want. Even if they discover the theft, they will erect a statue for you in a public square."

The following are more comments that appeared in recent days in the Arab media:

Mohammed in Lebanon: "Can you imagine if there was an investigation against an Arab or Muslim leader? Do you know how much money they would discover?"

Abu Yusef in Egypt: "Unfortunately, this is the real democracy. Our enemies are very good in practicing democracy. In the Arab world, our leaders steal everything and no one ever dares to ask a question."

Rashid in Saudi Arabia: "Despite all our problems with the Jews, they are much better than us in fighting corruption and revealing the truth."

Israel Lover in Saudi Arabia: "Israel is a state that deserves to exist. It deserves our profound respect. I wish I were a citizen of this state."

Hani in Ramallah: "This is democracy at its best! Enough of dictatorship in the Arab world! Let's learn from the Israeli example. Let's benefit from Israel's democracy."

Rashid Bohairi in Kuwait: "I swear Israel is a state that will succeed. They are prosecuting their prime minister because of tens of thousands of dollars. What about the millions of dollars that Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian Authority stole? How come the Palestinian people are still hungry?"

Arab world: No one is above the law in Israel | Jerusalem Post

The Arab world is watching and learning