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Archives Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians; Originally Posted by Vader We've all been saying for years that Hamas does not want peace. Hamas favors the ...

 
 
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Old 04-30-08, 08:26 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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Originally Posted by Vader View Post
We've all been saying for years that Hamas does not want peace. Hamas favors the final solution. Therefore, Hamas, like the nazis before them, must be stopped at all costs.

BBC Radio 4's man in Gaza says that the recent shortage of fuel in Gaza was actually caused by the petrol garage owners going on strike in protest at the lack of supply and the flack they as a result had to deal with. Hamas's then taking supplies for itself was then simlpy a move to enable it to govern rather than a collective punishment.

The recent supposed shooting up of the pipeline can also be viewed at this more advanced stage as a move designed to up the pressure on Egypt to release the pressure on Gaza and NOT a move designed to collectively punish Gaza.

Moreover, lets get down to it here, if you say that Hamas is involved in collective punishment of Gazans then what actually is the punishment for?
I.e. what do they think the Gazans have done?

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Old 04-30-08, 08:52 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
I am continually amazed at the Terrorist Apologists out there that can not differentiate between Armed Revolution where on military force engages another military force for supremecy as opposed to Blatent Terrorism where one side targets civilians and random attacks with roadside bombs, suicide bombs, and uncontrolled rocket attacks into the populace with no intention of engaging the others military, or for that matter, doing anything other than killing enough innocent people so that the legitimate side gives in... AND THEN, after decades and decades when the legit side starts to a mass some of their own immoral actions it is turned around and used against them as an "Ahaa! Israel is a State Terrorist! against the poor palestinians"

Some of you really need to learn your history...

Some of you that know your history but are unable or unwilling to interpret it into the proper perspective... not much we can do for you and you are the ones that are the most dangerous.
You may have had a point here if the Israel state's intentions were pure and 'defending' itself was all it was doing. However, since they are not and never have been it all falls down around our heads.

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Old 04-30-08, 08:53 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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I say deal with it. Be man enough to take responsibility for your actions instead of whinning about being punished.
Next, my punishment is none of your business slick. Deal with that as well.
Now you wish to debate in a civilized manner? Why, what’s the reasoning?
At the end of the day everything but time will remain the same.
How about I save the board a ton of time and space?

BB.. Israel kills the pals because the joo’s are evil...

Cherokee.. Israel targets terrorists who hide and operate among civilians.
The easy end of this would be to stop allowing the Hamas to operate, launching rockets and suicide attacks thus giving no reason for Israel to defend herself.


Sorry I don’t drink tea, nor do I drink or eat with people like you.


Now run off and shoot yourself in the foot then cry and scream how its the joo's fault.
pfft. what an strange person, he starts a slagging match and even when the olive branches are offered, he comes forth with insult and characatuer.

He doesnt drink tea? Ok maybe ginseng or Twinings Apple & blackberry are more his thing.

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Old 05-01-08, 01:11 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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Originally Posted by Bad Biscuit View Post
BBC Radio 4's man in Gaza says that the recent shortage of fuel in Gaza was actually caused by the petrol garage owners going on strike in protest at the lack of supply and the flack they as a result had to deal with. Hamas's then taking supplies for itself was then simlpy a move to enable it to govern rather than a collective punishment.

The recent supposed shooting up of the pipeline can also be viewed at this more advanced stage as a move designed to up the pressure on Egypt to release the pressure on Gaza and NOT a move designed to collectively punish Gaza.

Moreover, lets get down to it here, if you say that Hamas is involved in collective punishment of Gazans then what actually is the punishment for?
I.e. what do they think the Gazans have done?

BB

If anything, the Gazans are being punished for electing a terrorist group.
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Old 05-01-08, 07:27 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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Originally Posted by Vader View Post
If anything, the Gazans are being punished for electing a terrorist group.
Ok Vader. Maybe you can answer this since Donsutherland so far cannot.

If Hamas has decided to punish the Gazans then what crime does Hamas think its own citizens have commited?

For example, maybe Hamas hates J-walkers and litter louts and thus is trying to starve them into stopping it.

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Old 05-01-08, 09:07 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Biscuit View Post
Ok Vader. Maybe you can answer this since Donsutherland so far cannot.
Looking through the thread, although you asked the question earlier in the thread, you never raised the question with me (http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle...post1057601268 (Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians).

In my opinion, Hamas is likely engaging in collective punishment of ordinary Palestinians along the lines numerous past authoritarian, totalitarian, or outright corrupt regimes have taken in diverting international humanitarian assistance from their civilian populations.

When select supplies such as fuel, food, or medicines are tight, such regimes have sometimes engaged in what amounts to "zero sum competition" with their own populations for those resources. They have taken such supplies for use to secure their own base of support (military, paramilitary, civilians who support them, etc.). They have also diverted such assistance that would be sufficient to meet humanitarian needs in a cynical ploy to blame international sanctions, etc., for creating a humanitarian catastrophe that would not otherwise be occurring if all of the assistance were allowed to flow to the target recipients. Their aim was to defeat such sanctions, which merely sought to deprive such regimes of assistance. Unfortunately, given that such regimes, be they the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe, the Kim Jong-il regime in North Korea, the former Baathist regime in Iraq, or the Hamas regime in the Gaza Strip, among others, control the levers of power, they have a capacity to disrupt and divert humanitarian assistance so as to make the utility of sanctions quite low and to evade the full consequences of such sanctions if their regimes were to be fully cut off from such supplies.

Hamas probably has at least two objectives. First, it aims to divert world attention from its terrorist activities that led Israel to impose some restrictions on the Gaza Strip toward blaming Israel for the consequences of Hamas' terrorist acts. Hamas is willing to engineer an artificial famine or human catastrophe so as to be able to accuse Israel of engaging in collective punishment or worse in order to achieve its propaganda objectives. Second, it is also stealing food, medicine, and fuel for its own militants and supporters, so as to provide for the needs of those on whom it depends to retain power, and also to take ill-deserved credit for providing humanitarian assistance that is furnished by the international community.
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Old 05-02-08, 05:08 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post


Looking through the thread, although you asked the question earlier in the thread, you never raised the question with me (http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle...post1057601268 (Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians).

In my opinion, Hamas is likely engaging in collective punishment of ordinary Palestinians along the lines numerous past authoritarian, totalitarian, or outright corrupt regimes have taken in diverting international humanitarian assistance from their civilian populations.

When select supplies such as fuel, food, or medicines are tight, such regimes have sometimes engaged in what amounts to "zero sum competition" with their own populations for those resources. They have taken such supplies for use to secure their own base of support (military, paramilitary, civilians who support them, etc.). They have also diverted such assistance that would be sufficient to meet humanitarian needs in a cynical ploy to blame international sanctions, etc., for creating a humanitarian catastrophe that would not otherwise be occurring if all of the assistance were allowed to flow to the target recipients. Their aim was to defeat such sanctions, which merely sought to deprive such regimes of assistance. Unfortunately, given that such regimes, be they the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe, the Kim Jong-il regime in North Korea, the former Baathist regime in Iraq, or the Hamas regime in the Gaza Strip, among others, control the levers of power, they have a capacity to disrupt and divert humanitarian assistance so as to make the utility of sanctions quite low and to evade the full consequences of such sanctions if their regimes were to be fully cut off from such supplies.

Hamas probably has at least two objectives. First, it aims to divert world attention from its terrorist activities that led Israel to impose some restrictions on the Gaza Strip toward blaming Israel for the consequences of Hamas' terrorist acts. Hamas is willing to engineer an artificial famine or human catastrophe so as to be able to accuse Israel of engaging in collective punishment or worse in order to achieve its propaganda objectives. Second, it is also stealing food, medicine, and fuel for its own militants and supporters, so as to provide for the needs of those on whom it depends to retain power, and also to take ill-deserved credit for providing humanitarian assistance that is furnished by the international community.
Well, in these threads, as the foremost propagandist for Israel all the really tough questions are implicitly directed at you Don. Others may be pro israel anti arab etc but few are willing to put the effort in to this task.

Diverting humanitarian assistance from the population can only be called a collective punishment if the party involved can be said to be PUNISHING the population involved. That punishment requires a crime, perceived or real.

You say they have diverted enough supplies that were sufficient to meet humanitarian needs. That is merely an assumption. If you were to ask most people in Gaza if what they are receiving in total before any confiscations meets their humanitarian needs I doubt youd find a positive response.

Hamas probably has two objectives, to remain in power and to be able to fight.

Engineering a famine is just your imagination as it can quite easily engender sympathy for the Gazans plight in the ME without the need for endangering their power base by starvation tactics.

Stealing aid is not something they are engaged in as they are the political authority in Gaza with their mandate it is their duty to remain in power and direct resources as they see fit.
The best example is during the Bosnian civil war. During this time a muslim town was under seige and received aid by airdrop by a number of agencies. These aid airdrops were confiscated by the towns mayor and her political friends with the lions share of resources being directed to her political friends and the fighters defending the town before they were directed to the rest of the population. Was the mayor PUNISHING her town? Of course not. She was defending it.
Same goes for the UK in the battle of Britain. The UK received intermittent aid from the USA, Canada and her empire. Did those resources go to the poorest of Britains population? Not at all, in fact it went first to the government, then the armed forces (soldiers require many more calories to operate in the field), then the rest of the populace.

But, good answer anyway. Lets clear the intellectual field of people like Vader and keep things between you and I.

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Old 05-02-08, 07:56 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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Originally Posted by Bad Biscuit View Post
Diverting humanitarian assistance from the population can only be called a collective punishment if the party involved can be said to be PUNISHING the population involved. That punishment requires a crime, perceived or real.
By confiscating assistance from the people for whom the aid is intended, Hamas is, in fact, inflicting punishment e.g., Gaza's gas stations have less fuel, etc.

Quote:
You say they have diverted enough supplies that were sufficient to meet humanitarian needs. That is merely an assumption.
On this, you raise a fair point. I'm assuming the international groups and governments providing the assistance have a reasonable idea as to the Gaza's needs. Like all estimates, there could be error. In any case, what Hamas takes for itself and its supporters, reduces the assistance that is available to ordinary Gazans for whom the assistance is intended.

Quote:
The best example is during the Bosnian civil war. During this time a muslim town was under seige and received aid by airdrop by a number of agencies. These aid airdrops were confiscated by the towns mayor and her political friends with the lions share of resources being directed to her political friends and the fighters defending the town before they were directed to the rest of the population. Was the mayor PUNISHING her town? Of course not. She was defending it.

Same goes for the UK in the battle of Britain. The UK received intermittent aid from the USA, Canada and her empire. Did those resources go to the poorest of Britains population? Not at all, in fact it went first to the government, then the armed forces (soldiers require many more calories to operate in the field), then the rest of the populace.
Several quick points:

1) In the case of the Balkans war, assistance was air dropped, as there was no means of providing it to any specific entities or persons or distributing it on the ground via trucks, etc. That assistance was not directed to specific people or organizations.

2) In the case of World War II, the aid was specifically provided to the British Government.

3) In the case of the Gaza Strip, the assistance is specifically directed to organizations and distributed by NGOs with the intent of those providing the assistance to bypass Hamas.

Quote:
But, good answer anyway. Lets clear the intellectual field of people like Vader and keep things between you and I.
All members have a right to express their own views. Of course, one is under no obligation to respond to others if one so chooses to refrain from responding.
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Old 05-04-08, 02:30 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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Originally Posted by Bad Biscuit View Post
Ok Vader. Maybe you can answer this since Donsutherland so far cannot.

If Hamas has decided to punish the Gazans then what crime does Hamas think its own citizens have commited?

For example, maybe Hamas hates J-walkers and litter louts and thus is trying to starve them into stopping it.

BB
This question is not really applicable because in asking it you are comparing apples to oranges.

Hamas stole fuel supplies intended for the citizens of Gaza. Therefore, Hamas is not only a terrorist group; they are also a crime syndicate.

Groups like Hamas do not generally enforce the law(s) of the land. I would say that forced loyalty to Hamas is the only real law in the Gaza strip.

Therefore, the suffering that has befallen the Gazans and the Palestinian people as a whole is the result of their willingness to elect a group of terrorists to govern their little terrorist hot bed.
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Old 05-04-08, 12:22 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Re: Palestinian Terrorist Groups and Collective Punishment of Palestinians

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Originally Posted by Bad Biscuit View Post
pfft. what an strange person, he starts a slagging match and even when the olive branches are offered, he comes forth with insult and characatuer.

He doesnt drink tea? Ok maybe ginseng or Twinings Apple & blackberry are more his thing.

BB
How so, because I don't believe your bull**** about the Hamas or the people in Gaza? Because I can see what the hell is going on with my own two eyes and not the retarded bull**** that comes from the "info clearing house" or the rest of the pro Islamic terrorists sites? Maybe its because I've been to the Middle East and not tried to play "Arm chair General" from the safety of my living room like yourself.

When it comes down to it you're nothing more then an terrorist apologist.
I on the other hand see the apologist and the terrorist as being one and the same deserving the same treatment at the end of the day.

Whats makes you think I want peace with you?





PS. Has your foot healed up yet?. You ready to shoot it again?........

Last edited by cherokee : 05-04-08 at 12:25 PM.
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