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Israel threatens Palestinians with "Hololocaust"

Arabism Bully Cries Victim

"Arabism Bully Cries Victim"
Furthermore, Muslims are often the oppressed in certain places.
Arabism is one of the most oppressive and repressive systems of governance.

Oppressing arabism is an act of independence.

Arabism is not for non-arabs.
 
DonSutherland:
There were two peoples who shared historic legitimacy and had an equal claim to the exercise of their right to self-determination. Both peoples had irreconcilable differences over how to bring about sovereignty to the region. Neither had a superior claim over the other.

UNSCOP accommodated both peoples' needs, as distinct from their maximum demands, by assuring each a sovereign state. The Jewish people cooperated. The Arabs refused to do so.

It's that simple, why cannot people comprehend that. The Jewish people acccepted the two state solution, the next day the Palestinians attempted to sweep tha people of David into the sea and have been at war ever since. How is it justice to give support to a side that chooses war and TARGETS children, and would murder an entire people if they possessed anywhere near the ability of the side that solely desires to defend herself?
 
And they did help us win the cold war by defeating the communist back countries in the area.

Yeah. By funding the rise of Islamic parties.

Thanks to Israel’s intelligence agency Mossad (Israel’s Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks), the Islamists were allowed to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. Meanwhile, the members of Fatah (Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine) and the Palestinian Left were subjected to the most brutal form of repression”, according to L'Humanité.[1] Indeed Israel supported and encouraged Hamas' early growth in an effort to undermine the secular Fatah movement of Yasser Arafat.[2] According to UPI, Israel supported Hamas starting in the late 1970s as a "counterbalance to the Palestine Liberation Organization".[3

History of Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What did they do to help us win the cold war, exactly?

Deprive the Russians of oil? :mrgreen:

lets see Israel has rockets fired into there country daily, because the palistinians don't think its a real country when it is according to the UN.

Let's see Israel/US failed to make any relationship with Hamas, or try to splinter the movement between moderates and extremists.

For example, why the **** didn't the US at least attempt to set up a secret channel between Israel and Hamas (or just US/Hamas) when they offered:

On January 26, 2004, senior Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year truce, or hudna, in return for a complete withdrawal by Israel from the territories captured in the Six Day War, and the establishment of a Palestinian state (it remade the same offer after winning the majority in the PLC, accepting the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative[4]). Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin stated that the group could accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Rantissi confirmed that Hamas had come to the conclusion that it was "difficult to liberate all our land at this stage, so we accept a phased liberation." He said the truce could last 10 years, though "not more than 10 years".

Now, granted, that's only a start. But it is a cease-fire, and no more or less open-ended than Ben-Gurion saying that all the lands of ancient Israel will become Israel eventually...so let's just take what we can get now.

During those 10 years, we could help jump-start the Palestinian economy, making Armed Resistance less of an attractive option. So far, it's the only option they have since, obvioulsy, they now have nobody willing to talk and are being shelled.

But, there have been some (mostly experienced) diplomats who have shown a willingness to open negotiations of one form or another:

In the end of January 2004, Steve Cohen, a US civil servant in the State Department, was mandated by Colin Powell to attend a meeting with Hamas officials, according to the French newspaper Le Canard enchaîné. The mission was not only in informing itself about the objectives of the movement, according to the newspaper, but also to evaluate if Hamas could represent a counter-balance to al-Qaeda. In exchange, Hamas officials asked for the end of extra-judicial "targeted assassinations" practiced against them by the Israeli military

I'm not saying we should agree to the demands they have immediately (only a fool would do that). I am saying that we should try some diplomacy. Hamas is a power, won the elections, was observing a cease-fire....and yet no talks could commence. Why? Do we really have to go through the 20 years of getting nowhere we had with Arafat?

Of course, following the Israeli shelling of 8 civilians on a Gaza beach which resulted, ultimately, in the breakdown of the 16-month Hamas cease-fire, we have that much more work to do.

Oh that isn't me saying its the website, I don't know how to quote the article, can you tell me how?

I just put the Quote wraps around the section I'm quoting. It took me a while to figure it out, myself.

A 100 billion dollar economy really isn't that big when you compare it to ours.

No, it's not. But they don't need our help if their neighbors combined can't equal them.
 
Re: Arabism Bully Cries Victim

Arabism is one of the most oppressive and repressive systems of governance.

Oppressing arabism is an act of independence.

Arabism is not for non-arabs.

Tribalism has existed in this region for a long time; In many places, survival still depends on it.

Ultimately, Israel is just another tribe. It's not just the "arabs."
 
Yeah. By funding the rise of Islamic parties.



History of Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What did they do to help us win the cold war, exactly?

Deprive the Russians of oil? :mrgreen:

No by defeating the countries that were supplied by the soviet union.And keeping the union from completly taking the middle east.


Air Force - Egypt

[/QUOTE]When the Soviet Union became Egypt's principal arms supplier in the 1950s, it also played a preeminent role in advising and training the Egyptian air force. Much of the Soviet influence on the air force's structure and organization still prevailed in the 1980s, although training and tactics were affected by the changeover to Western equipment and the advanced training provided by the United States and other Western countries. Flying units were organized into air brigades that were headquartered at a single base. Brigades officially consisted of three squadrons that each had sixteen to twenty aircraft. Many brigades, however, had only two squadrons. With its headquarters at Heliopolis near Cairo, the air force had about seventeen principal air bases out of a total of forty major installations, as well as reserve and auxiliary bases.

After the June 1967 War and again after the October 1973 War, Egypt had to rebuild totally its air force. Only a few hours after the June 1967 War began, Israel had virtually wiped out the Egyptian air force. The government later tried and imprisoned the commander of the air force and a few other officers and purged many other senior officers. The combat efficiency of the air force, which had dropped almost to nil as a consequence of the war and its aftermath, was restored by renewed deliveries from the Soviet Union and intensified Soviet-led training of pilots and crews. [/QUOTE]

Let's see Israel/US failed to make any relationship with Hamas, or try to splinter the movement between moderates and extremists.

For example, why the **** didn't the US at least attempt to set up a secret channel between Israel and Hamas (or just US/Hamas) when they offered:



Now, granted, that's only a start. But it is a cease-fire, and no more or less open-ended than Ben-Gurion saying that all the lands of ancient Israel will become Israel eventually...so let's just take what we can get now.

During those 10 years, we could help jump-start the Palestinian economy, making Armed Resistance less of an attractive option. So far, it's the only option they have since, obvioulsy, they now have nobody willing to talk and are being shelled.

But, there have been some (mostly experienced) diplomats who have shown a willingness to open negotiations of one form or another:



I'm not saying we should agree to the demands they have immediately (only a fool would do that). I am saying that we should try some diplomacy. Hamas is a power, won the elections, was observing a cease-fire....and yet no talks could commence. Why? Do we really have to go through the 20 years of getting nowhere we had with Arafat?

lets see all the peace deals with palestine:

[/QUOTE]
In 1992, Yitzhak Rabin became Prime Minister following an election in which his party promoted compromise with Israel's neighbors.[80][81] The following year, Shimon Peres and Mahmoud Abbas, on behalf of Israel and the PLO, signed the Oslo Accords, which gave the Palestinian National Authority the right to self-govern parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, in return for recognition of Israel's right to exist and an end to terrorism.[82] In 1994, the Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace was signed, making Jordan the second Arab country to normalize relations with Israel.[83] Public support for the Accords waned as Israel was struck by a wave of attacks from Palestinians. The November 1995 assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a far-right-wing Jew, as he left a peace rally, shocked the country. At the end of the 1990s, Israel, under the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu, withdrew from Hebron[84] and signed the Wye River Memorandum, giving greater control to the Palestinian National Authority.[85]

Ehud Barak, elected Prime Minister in 1999, began the new millennium by withdrawing forces from Southern Lebanon and conducting negotiations with Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat and U.S. President Bill Clinton at the July 2000 Camp David Summit. During the summit, Barak offered a plan for the establishment of a Palestinian state, but Yasser Arafat rejected it.[86] After the collapse of the talks, Palestinians began the Second Intifada.

Ariel Sharon soon after became the new prime minister in a 2001 special election. During his tenure, Sharon carried out his plan to unilaterally withdraw from the Gaza Strip and also spearheaded the construction of the Israeli West Bank barrier.[87] In January 2006, after Ariel Sharon suffered a severe hemorrhagic stroke which left him in a coma, the powers of office were transferred to Ehud Olmert. The kidnappings of Israeli soldiers by Hamas and Hezbollah and the shelling of settlements on Israel's northern border led to a five-week war, known in Israel as the Second Lebanon War. The conflict was brought to end by a ceasefire brokered by the United Nations. After the war, Israel's Chief of Staff, Dan Halutz, resigned.[88]

On November 27, 2007, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas agreed to begin negotiations on all issues, and to make every effort reach an agreement by the end of 2008.[/QUOTE]

Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Of course, following the Israeli shelling of 8 civilians on a Gaza beach which resulted, ultimately, in the breakdown of the 16-month Hamas cease-fire, we have that much more work to do.



I just put the Quote wraps around the section I'm quoting. It took me a while to figure it out, myself.



No, it's not. But they don't need our help if their neighbors combined can't equal them.

Hey we are stuck in Iraq in afganastan and they has a much smaller economy than we do.

Damm why didn't quote my articles?
 
Distemper

"Distemper"
Joby said:
Furthermore, Muslims are often the oppressed in certain places.
Monk-Eye said:
Arabism is one of the most oppressive and repressive systems of governance. Oppressing arabism is an act of independence. Arabism is not for non-arabs.
Tribalism has existed in this region for a long time; In many places, survival still depends on it. Ultimately, Israel is just another tribe. It's not just the "arabs."
Arabism is a genetic religion.
Eventhough, non-arabs have been fooled into its practice.
Arabism fails to acknowledge any boundaries of city state, pervading into whatever directions it may manifest.
It is agressive, malicious, and disrespectful of institutional alternatives.

Israelism is a genetic religion.
It disavows adoption by non-israelis.
It has cordoned a city state for its institution, it is respectful of institutional alternatives.

Both genetic religions agree as to which tribe the land belongs.
The genetic religion of arabism betrays its own deity, betrays its own credence, is practicing blasphemy, breeding contempt, pursuing antilibertarianism, rendering deceit.
 
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You should debate.

The "They hate Us. Always have, always will" argument is crap.

It's only crap to the carterites.... and only because they hate the jews.

Those people are indoctrinated with hatered from the day they are pooped out.

There is NO denying this fact. It's shameful of you to say otherwise.

Islamic interference in their government and schools is 9999999999999999999999999999999999.99% of their problem. No islam in government or schools = NO MORE TERRORIST BREEDING GROUND!!!


:mrgreen:
 
Oh God.

This is ridiculous. 'Terrorist' groups exist all over the world.

And yet, the overwhelming majority of terrorism today is commited by Muslims.
 
Is FARC a muslim group?

No, your point? Muslims have probably killed more civilians in terrorist attacks in the last few weeks than FARC has killed in the last 5 years.
 
And yet, the overwhelming majority of terrorism today is commited by Muslims.

Care to take a body count of murdered innocents in Palestine and Iraq? You already know how many will be Muslims and how many jews and Christians. War is terrorism, and Judeo-Christians are the world champs at cowardly, bullying slaughter.

Warning! Provocative image!


2005-1-raisinggodfearingchildren1.jpg
 
Having forced the victims of their invasion and Occupation into Warsaw Ghetto conditions in Gaza, The Likud Zionist racists threaten to move to the next stage of extermination they are obviously borrowing from their recent past:



Your tax dollars and US weaponry are ready to begin another Holocaust. Enjoy your "reality" TV.
First of all the comment wasn't made by "Likud Zionist racists" but by Matan Vilnai who isn't from the Likud but from the Haavoda party.

Now he didn't say the things you said.

He said that the Gazans are bringing a Shoah (not holocaust, continue reading) on themselves. He didn't say that Israel is bringing a Shoah (not holocaust, continue reading) on them but that they are bringing it on themselves.

He didn't refer to the holocaust done by the Nazis 70 years ago cause he was talking about Shoah and Shoah in Hebrew means disaster in general and not refers only to the Nazi holocaust and he didn't mean the Nazi holocaust.

"As the rocket fire grows, and the range increases ... they are bringing upon themselves a greater 'shoah' because we will use all our strength in every way we deem appropriate, whether in airstrikes or on the ground," Vilnai said.

The Hebrew word "shoah" most often refers to the Holocaust but Israelis use it to describe all sorts of disasters. A spokesman for Vilnai, Eitan Ginzburg, said the deputy defense minister never intended it as a reference to the Holocaust but used the word "shoah" to denote a disaster. Full article inside

So do a good search before spreading your usual nonsense.

Also, if you love so much to talk about racism and apartheid, why don't you listen to the end of the speech (5:18 minute) of Irwin Cotler when he explains what the real racism and the real apartheid in the world are?

[youtube]M1uisNMwQ80[/youtube]
 
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Blacks were not caged in ghettos and subjected to daily shelling, sniping, and arbitrary home demolition along with kidnapping. They were not bombed and shelled as "community punishment." Again, Desmond Tutu has the credentials to debunk any would-be debunkers. He has lived under S. African apartheid and has been to Palestine. Have you?

Desmond Tutu does not understand the definition of apartheid. The correct definition has been posted here, with links, a number of time. You are only repeating inaccurate propaganda, villianizing Israel. The idea that it is apartheid has been debunked, completely.

It's an occupation. It's not apartheid.
 
Desmond Tutu does not understand the definition of apartheid. The correct definition has been posted here, with links, a number of time. You are only repeating inaccurate propaganda, villianizing Israel. The idea that it is apartheid has been debunked, completely.
It's an occupation. It's not apartheid.

Israel is a state comprising primarily refuges and their descendants exercising their right of self determination. Starting in the 1880s, the Jews who moved to what is now Israel were refuges escaping the repressive anti-Semitism of colonial Europe and Muslim states of the Middle East and North Africa. Unlike colonial settlers serving the expansionist commercial and military goals of imperial nations such as Great Britain, France, the Netherlands, and Spain, the Jewish refuges were escaping from the countries that oppressed them for centuries. These refuges were far more comparable to American colonist who had left England because of religious oppression(or the Europeans who later immigrated to America) than they were to eighteenth –and nineteenth-century English imperialist who colonized India, the French settlers who colonized North Africa, and the Dutch expansionist who colonized Indonesia.:2wave:
 
Palestinian terrorist attacks are both illegal and wrong. Aside from the ethical values compromised from attacking defenseless civilians, those attacks violate the laws of war.

Yes, and they should be stopped. I find it interesting that you want the Palestinians to stop doing what is wrong but have no problem with the Israelis doing what is wrong (constructing settlements).

To date, the UN has not taken an impartial attitude toward opposing Palestinian and Arab terrorism. Indeed, the Security Council could not bring itself to condemn the recent attack on a Jewish rabinnical school in Jerusalem. Its partiality has all but eliminated the UN's capacity to play a useful role in promoting Middle East peace. If anything, the UN's decisions have served to embolden the rejectionist elements responsible for acts of aggression against Israel and undermined prospects for peace.

This 'UN is anti-Israel' sentiment is quite amazing given that if the UN had not decided to magic Israel out of thin air there would be no Israel today. Israels very creation and existence is all down to the actions of the UN, yet somehow people seem to think the UN is always against Israel. This thinking is completely unsubstantiated by the facts.

Is it just because the UN does not agree with Israel on every single thing that you have a problem? Don't you think that would be a bit unreasonable to expect the above?

With regard to all existing UN decisions on the matter the UN should (by its own decisions) build up a force from its member states, enforce the borders it determined and take military action against Palestine/Israeli forces which engage in military hostilities. Are you seriously telling me that Israel would back this? Or do you just want the UN to enforce resolutions which are to Israels benefit and ignore those which are to its detriment? Is this the impartiality that you talk of?

In that environment, an approach that requires strict reciprocity in which one party has to give something to receive something might offer the best chance at bringing about progress. The Palestinians want Israel to cease building new settlements. Israel wants an end to the terrorism. Palestinians can help address Israel's security needs in return for Israel helping address Palestinians' desire for land.

Bearing in mind that Israel has NEVER halted its settlement programme are we to take it that the above will only apply if the Palestinians 'go first'?

Such an agreement would benefit both parties. Terrorism greatly undermines prospects for peace. Once the terrorism is brought to an end, then negotiations may have a better chance at succeeding. Should terrorism persist, there is little chance that a final settlement will be possible.

Reciprocation is not bringing terrorism to a halt and then having a negotiation about the illegal settlements. In my opinion both sides should be forced to stop their actions immediately but if your positon is that Hamas must stop their rockets and then Israel will enter negotiations about its illegal settlement programme I don't see any progress being made.

Israel has never engaged in ethnic cleansing. I have no reason whatsoever to believe it will adopt such an approach.

I never said Israel had but bearing in my mind you have said that Israel must never become a Jewish minority I am asking you how you will resolve the problem if it becomes one naturally in 100yrs time. If you will not religiously cleanse the area to maintain a Jewish majority how will you fix this?

With all due respect, equality does not mean that the Arab residents have a full right to pursue their desire for self-determination and the Jewish residents had no right to do so. UNSCOP invited both the Arab and Jewish representatives to participate in the process of bringing sovereignty to the region held by the British. That's equality of opportunity. The Arabs refused.

Religious discrimination is both illegall and wrong. You said earlier that the Jewish immigrants should have had exactly the same rights as the Arab inhabitants. The Arabs had no right to ask the UN to split the country so why do the immigrants?

And you are missing the point - immigrants enter a country on that country's terms. They have no right to determine what happens to the country going forward. Can you provide ANY other example of a case where immigrants have entered a country and then forced that country to split up so they can get a land of their own?

UNSCOP's partition plan toward creating both a Jewish and an Arab state accommodated the core need for self-determination for both peoples. Each of the region's two peoples had the chance to attain a state of their own. That, too, is equality.

Polish/German/Czech Jews have the right of self-determination in their own respective countries. Why should these people have a right of determination in a country thousands of miles away? European Jews already have a state of their own, their state of birth. The argument that they had no state is nonsense. They had a state which they did not want, that is an entirely different proposition.

The U.S. was mediating at the request of both sides. The U.S. is under absolutely no obligation to mediate or broker any kind of peace agreement between the two parties. Israel accepted an arrangement that went well beyond its own Camp David positions by accepting President Clinton's bridging proposal. Israel embraced peace even as the bridging proposal required that it make substantial sacrifices.

Israel accepted a proposal it found favourable and Arafat rejected the proposal as he found it unreasonable. This is not unusual.

There are many peace agreements which have been put forward by other mediators (Egypt and the Arab league) and accepted by Arafat but these have been rejected by Israel. Does this then mean that Israel has rejected 'historic opportunities for peace'?

Needless to say, the Palestinians enjoy the right to refuse proposed peace agreements. I believe Yasser Arafat made a horrendous blunder in doing so. The Palestinian people are far worse off than they would otherwise have been had he had the courage and foresight to embrace peace.

He wanted peace. Israel wanted peace on its terms and these terms were unacceptable. It was widely expected that the plan (as put forward) would be rejected by Arafat, I do not understand why you are surprised at this when everybody expected this to be the case.

At the same time, just as the Palestinians have the freedom to reject proposed initiatives, Israel enjoys similar freedom. It is not obligated to accept terms it believes would compromise its critical interests.

Which is exactly what I have been saying to you. Israel cannot expect the Palestines to accept any peace plan it puts forward whilst reserving itself the right to refuse any peace plan put to it by the other side. Just as Israel reserves itself the right to refuse unnaceptable peace terms so to does Palestine. Why do you expect them to agree to things which they do not believe to be reasonable?

All said, if there is to be peace, both sides will need to compromise. Each party's core needs will need to be accommodated in the agreement. Compromise means that each side will have to accept a solution that falls short of their maximum demands. Israel has demonstrated a willingness and capacity to compromise. Whether or not the Palestinians will do so in the future remains to be seen.

A compromise is needed but when Israel says that the situation re: the refugees and Jerusalem are off limits how can a compromise be reached?

The Palestinian refugees and their descendants would have been compensated in return for limiting their option to move to the West Bank or Gaza Strip.

Money does not always solve everything. This is homes and land which people have owned for generations, most do not want the money they want their land and homes back.

On a seperate point if the Arabs could secure the financial backing of the Arab states would the Israelis accept a compensation package which paid for all the European Jews to move back home? Or do you think this would be rejected?

No Israeli leader can or should agree to a formula that brings about Israel's demise. If the Palestinians insist on fulfillment of their demand concerning refugees and their descendants (the vast majority of whom were not born in Israel and have never lived there), agreement will not be possible.

A refugees right of return is not a demand. This is a right to which they are entitled, they should not have to demand this. As for the agrument that the majority of them were not born there this is an amazing argument to be put forward from the Jewish perspective!

If that is the course the Palestinians choose to pursue, that course will lead them to a dead-end. Israel will reject such demands, as no Israeli leader can or should consent to his or her own country's demise.

yet interestingly you expect a Palestinian leader to freely agree to this.

I would submit that compromise is, by far, the more beneficial course. But, the Palestinians will need to make their own choice. Should they move ahead with negotiations in a spirit of compromise, they will have a chance to gain a state. Should they choose the course of implacability, they will likely receive little or even nothing in return, and they will have only their intransigence to blame for that outcome.

The blame for the current situation rests solely at the feet of the UN and its making of the most illogical and unacceptable decision of all time. The Palestinians were the victim of this action and they should not just accept this injustice without standing for their own rights. They should not allow Israel to railroad them into any agreement which happens to suit Israel but instead they should press their own claims.
 
Care to take a body count of murdered innocents in Palestine and Iraq? You already know how many will be Muslims and how many jews and Christians.

You need to look at who is committing the terrorism, not the victims. When a Sunni Muslim self detonates in a crowded shiite market, its still terrorism committed by muslims.
 
You need to look at who is committing the terrorism, not the victims. When a Sunni Muslim self detonates in a crowded shiite market, its still terrorism committed by muslims.

And when they're lined up against a wall, what is that?
 
First of all the comment wasn't made by "Likud Zionist racists" but by Matan Vilnai who isn't from the Likud but from the Haavoda party.

Now he didn't say the things you said.

He said that the Gazans are bringing a Shoah (not holocaust, continue reading) on themselves. He didn't say that Israel is bringing a Shoah (not holocaust, continue reading) on them but that they are bringing it on themselves.

He didn't refer to the holocaust done by the Nazis 70 years ago cause he was talking about Shoah and Shoah in Hebrew means disaster in general and not refers only to the Nazi holocaust and he didn't mean the Nazi holocaust.



So do a good search before spreading your usual nonsense.

Also, if you love so much to talk about racism and apartheid, why don't you listen to the end of the speech (5:18 minute) of Irwin Cotler when he explains what the real racism and the real apartheid in the world are?

So the meaning of "Shoah" is not Holocaust?
Your argument is fooling only Christian Zionists:

The meaning of Gaza’s ‘shoah’
Israel plots another Palestinian exodus

By Jonathan Cook in Nazareth

08/03/08 "ICH" -- -- Israeli Deputy Defence Minister Matan Vilnai’s much publicised remark last week about Gaza facing a “shoah” -- the Hebrew word for the Holocaust -- was widely assumed to be unpleasant hyperbole about the army’s plans for an imminent full-scale invasion of the Strip. More significantly, however, his comment offers a disturbing indication of the Israeli army’s longer-term strategy towards the Palestinians in the occupied territories.

Vilnai, a former general, was interviewed by Army Radio as Israel was in the midst of unleashing a series of air and ground strikes on populated areas of Gaza that killed more than 100 Palestinians, at least half of whom were civilians and 25 of whom were children, according to the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem. The interview also took place in the wake of a rocket fired from Gaza that killed a student in Sderot and other rockets that hit the centre of the southern city of Ashkelon. Vilnai stated: “The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they [the Palestinians of Gaza] will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves.”

His comment, picked up by the Reuters wire service, was soon making headlines around the world. Presumably uncomfortable with a senior public figure in Israel comparing his government’s policies to the Nazi plan to exterminate European Jewry, many news services referred to Vilnai’s clearly articulated threat as a “warning”, as though he was prophesying a cataclysmic natural event over which he and the Israeli army had no control.
Within hours the Israeli Foreign Ministry was launching a large “hasbara” (propaganda) campaign through its diplomats, as the Jerusalem Post reported. In a related move, a spokesman for Vilnai explained that the word “shoah” also meant “disaster”; this, rather than a holocaust, was what the minister had been referring to. Clarifications were issued by many media outlets. However, no one in Israel was fooled. “Shoah” -- which literally means “burnt offering” -- was long ago reserved for the Holocaust, much as the Arabic word “nakba” (or “catastrophe”) is nowadays used only to refer to the Palestinians’ dispossession by Israel in 1948. Certainly, the Israeli media in English translated Vilnai’s use of “shoah” as “holocaust". . .[More]”.

So who is right? With Israel's credibility at below zero in anything they say about their abuse of Palestinians, I believe Vilnai meant what he said.
 
Muslim on Muslim terrorism. Your point?

Does the threat from Qassams do anything like this to the Israelis?:


The meaning of Gaza’s ‘shoah’

As Amira Hass, Haaretz’s veteran reporter in the occupied territories, observed, Israel has so far managed to terrorise most ordinary Gazans into a paralysed inactivity on this front. In the main Palestinians have refused to take the “suicidal” course of directly challenging their imprisonment by Israel, even peacefully: “The Palestinians do not need warnings or reports to know the Israeli soldiers shoot the unarmed as well, and they also kill women and children.”
 
Muslim on Muslim terrorism. Your point?

And when the IDF oversaw and protected a militia slaughter thousands of Palestinian civilians, in response to a single Pro-Syrian assininating Israel's murederous dictator of choice...Is that terrorism?

Cutting off refugee camps, then looking on as thousands of men, women and children have their guts blown out, and shooting up flares to aid in the massacre....Is that terrorism?

Sabra and Shatila massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sabra and Shatila Massacre: The Four Days /Thomas Friedman (NYT, 1982) [Candide's Notebooks]
 
That would be Christian on Muslim terrorism in Lebanon. If you have to go back decades you are only demonstrating my point.
 
Yes, and they should be stopped. I find it interesting that you want the Palestinians to stop doing what is wrong but have no problem with the Israelis doing what is wrong (constructing settlements).

It would be idealistic if all of the world's people could accommodate one another and live in an everlasting era of peace, harmony, and prosperity. However, such a situation has never existed. Moreover, given the realities of human nature, such a situation is not likely to exist barring a dramatic change in human nature. Considering the slow nature of evolution, one should not expect such a change in human nature anytime soon.

Within the constraints of the world as it actually is, reciprocity offers perhaps the most effective means of assuring that each party can obtain something that it desires. Reciprocity requires a party to give up something in order to receive it.

The Palestinians need land for a state. Israel needs security. The tradeoff is obvious. If the Palestinians want Israel to limit settlement activity to maximize the amount of land they would receive in a future peace arrangement, they will need to take steps (not words) to enhance Israel's security e.g., begin a credible effort to disarm and dismantle terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Outlawing Hamas and its institutions would offer a constructive first step in that direction.

Israels very creation and existence is all down to the actions of the UN, yet somehow people seem to think the UN is always against Israel. This thinking is completely unsubstantiated by the facts.

If one examines the UN's decisions in the past and its more recent ones, the shift in the UN's decisionmaking is inescapable. If one examines the rhetoric and unbalanced decisions eminating from the UN Human Rights Council and the UN General Assembly, the UN's current course is generally an anti-Israel one.

Bearing in mind that Israel has NEVER halted its settlement programme are we to take it that the above will only apply if the Palestinians 'go first'?

Determining the exact sequence of events is something the two sides will need to agree upon. In my personal opinion, decisions should be as simultaneous as possible. Afterward, substantive acts taken by each party should be as simultaneous as is possible. In effect, promises would be matched by promises, and actions would be matched by actions.

If you will not religiously cleanse the area to maintain a Jewish majority how will you fix this?

As I explained earlier, Israel has never engaged in what can be described as "ethnic cleansing." I have no reason to believe that Israel will engage in ethnic cleansing in the future. I cannot be any more clear than that.

And you are missing the point - immigrants enter a country on that country's terms. They have no right to determine what happens to the country going forward. Can you provide ANY other example of a case where immigrants have entered a country and then forced that country to split up so they can get a land of their own?

First, there was no independent country of Palestine. The land in question had been a part of the Ottoman Empire and then part of the British Empire. It was not a sovereign state and, thus, did not enjoy the authority of a sovereign state. That reality is crucial.

Second, the UN was charged with helping guide the region to sovereign status. In doing so, it was essential that the UN accommodate the needs of the region's two peoples, both of whom shared an equal claim to legitimacy and expression of self-determination.

Of course, needs are not the same thing as maximum demands. They are far narrower in scope and far more basic in nature. Mutual accommodation rules out any approach that would embrace the maximum demands of one people at the expense of the other's needs. Given the situation in the region at the time (rising violence and the irreconcilable nature of the two peoples' demands), partition offered the most feasible means of accommodating the two peoples' needs, even as it fell short of satisfying their maximum demands.

Israel accepted a proposal it found favourable and Arafat rejected the proposal as he found it unreasonable. This is not unusual.

There are many peace agreements which have been put forward by other mediators (Egypt and the Arab league) and accepted by Arafat but these have been rejected by Israel. Does this then mean that Israel has rejected 'historic opportunities for peace'?

He wanted peace. Israel wanted peace on its terms and these terms were unacceptable. It was widely expected that the plan (as put forward) would be rejected by Arafat, I do not understand why you are surprised at this when everybody expected this to be the case.

Which is exactly what I have been saying to you. Israel cannot expect the Palestines to accept any peace plan it puts forward whilst reserving itself the right to refuse any peace plan put to it by the other side.

Ultimately, a viable peace plan will have to accommodate the needs of both Palestinians and Israelis. So long as the Arab side seeks a solution that would, in effect, bring about Israel's demise via demographic transformation, Israel will have no choice but to reject such initiatives. Israel's existence is not and cannot be on the table. That lack of accommodation is the fatal defect in the Arab initiatives and Palestinian position.

The lack of a Palestinian state today is a direct consequence of Palestinian intransigence. The economic hardship, particularly in the Gaza Strip, is a direct consequence of Palestinian failure to dismantle and disarm terrorist organizations such as Hamas and cost of failing to pursue the opportunities made available by Israel's complete disenagement from the Gaza Strip in 2005. Decisions have consequences. The decisionmakers and those who carried out such decisions bear responsibility for the consequences of those decisions.

A compromise is needed but when Israel says that the situation re: the refugees and Jerusalem are off limits how can a compromise be reached?

Israel cannot reasonably be expected to engineer or consent to its own demise. Moreover, in accepting President Clinton's bridging proposal, Israel agreed to give the Palestinians all of East Jerusalem except for the Western Wall (Judaism's holiest site). The Palestinians cannot expect Israel to surrender Judaism's holiest site.

On a seperate point if the Arabs could secure the financial backing of the Arab states would the Israelis accept a compensation package which paid for all the European Jews to move back home?

This analogy has no relevance to the issue of resolving the historic Israeli-Palestinian dispute. Israel is home to its Jewish population. The vast majority of Israel's Jewish residents were born in Israel. Israel, as a sovereign state, also has the right to set its own immigration policy. Its immigrants are legal residents there. Hence, Israel is also home to its immigrant population.​
 
It would be idealistic if all of the world's people could accommodate one another and live in an everlasting era of peace, harmony, and prosperity. However, such a situation has never existed. Moreover, given the realities of human nature, such a situation is not likely to exist barring a dramatic change in human nature. Considering the slow nature of evolution, one should not expect such a change in human nature anytime soon.

Within the constraints of the world as it actually is, reciprocity offers perhaps the most effective means of assuring that each party can obtain something that it desires. Reciprocity requires a party to give up something in order to receive it.

The Palestinians need land for a state. Israel needs security. The tradeoff is obvious. If the Palestinians want Israel to limit settlement activity to maximize the amount of land they would receive in a future peace arrangement, they will need to take steps (not words) to enhance Israel's security e.g., begin a credible effort to disarm and dismantle terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Outlawing Hamas and its institutions would offer a constructive first step in that direction.

I only asked why you have no condemnation for Israel expanding its settlements against the terms of the road map but have plenty for Hamas firing rockets into Israel against its terms of the road map?

As for security - do you not agree that with every new settlement which Israel constructs its security is lessened and its security needs increase?

It seems to me very strange that Israel complains about its security but then voluntarily takes actions which lessens its security. I think it is clear it puts expansion above security needs.

If one examines the UN's decisions in the past and its more recent ones, the shift in the UN's decisionmaking is inescapable. If one examines the rhetoric and unbalanced decisions eminating from the UN Human Rights Council and the UN General Assembly, the UN's current course is generally an anti-Israel one.

Exactly which UN decisions and resolutions do you think are unfair? Be specific and I will reply.

Determining the exact sequence of events is something the two sides will need to agree upon. In my personal opinion, decisions should be as simultaneous as possible. Afterward, substantive acts taken by each party should be as simultaneous as is possible. In effect, promises would be matched by promises, and actions would be matched by actions.

Rocket attacks have been stopped supposedly. Israel has just announced a major new settlement expansion programme. Will this programme now be cancelled?

As I explained earlier, Israel has never engaged in what can be described as "ethnic cleansing." I have no reason to believe that Israel will engage in ethnic cleansing in the future. I cannot be any more clear than that.

I also have repeatedly said this has not occured. I asked how you would correct the situation in 100yrs time if Jews were in the minority. So, how would you correct the situation?

First, there was no independent country of Palestine. The land in question had been a part of the Ottoman Empire and then part of the British Empire. It was not a sovereign state and, thus, did not enjoy the authority of a sovereign state. That reality is crucial.

The Brits had a mandate to rule, this was not part of their Empire. Also, the mandate expired so who has authority (if not the inhabitants) to decide what happens going forward?

Second, the UN was charged with helping guide the region to sovereign status. In doing so, it was essential that the UN accommodate the needs of the region's two peoples, both of whom shared an equal claim to legitimacy and expression of self-determination.

The claims of recent immigrants should not be the same as those who have lived there for generations. This idea of equality is a fallacy. Someone who has lived in the ME for 5 mins should in no way have the same right to determine what happens going forward as those who's family have lived there for generations.

And Poles/Czech's etc have a legitimate right to determine what happens in Poland etc. They have no right to have a say in what happens in a country thousands of miles away.

Ultimately, a viable peace plan will have to accommodate the needs of both Palestinians and Israelis. So long as the Arab side seeks a solution that would, in effect, bring about Israel's demise via demographic transformation, Israel will have no choice but to reject such initiatives. Israel's existence is not and cannot be on the table. That lack of accommodation is the fatal defect in the Arab initiatives and Palestinian position.

Israel is a country recognized throughout the world. It will continue to exist regardless of its demographics. A policy which allows ANYONE who is a Jew to move into the land yet stops those who were actually born within the borders and have homes within the borders from returning is inherently religiously discriminatory. If Israel expects to be a part of the international community I am amazed this has been accepted by the Western societies. The UN is supposed to be anti-discrimination not pro-discrimination - this policy should be rejected.

The lack of a Palestinian state today is a direct consequence of Palestinian intransigence. The economic hardship, particularly in the Gaza Strip, is a direct consequence of Palestinian failure to dismantle and disarm terrorist organizations such as Hamas and cost of failing to pursue the opportunities made available by Israel's complete disenagement from the Gaza Strip in 2005. Decisions have consequences. The decisionmakers and those who carried out such decisions bear responsibility for the consequences of those decisions.

Economic problems in Gaza are caused by an embargo from Israel and the West. Israel has far from disengaged in the strip. They have sealed it off and launched military operations inside it in the last week. Israeli interest in the Gaza strip is far from over.

Israel cannot reasonably be expected to engineer or consent to its own demise. Moreover, in accepting President Clinton's bridging proposal, Israel agreed to give the Palestinians all of East Jerusalem except for the Western Wall (Judaism's holiest site). The Palestinians cannot expect Israel to surrender Judaism's holiest site.

The return of refugees to their home does not equate to the demise of Israel and Jerusalem was never given to Israel by anyone.

This analogy has no relevance to the issue of resolving the historic Israeli-Palestinian dispute. Israel is home to its Jewish population. The vast majority of Israel's Jewish residents were born in Israel. Israel, as a sovereign state, also has the right to set its own immigration policy. Its immigrants are legal residents there. Hence, Israel is also home to its immigrant population.

I'd disagree. You have said that the refugees should be willing to accept cash in return for agreeing to leave their homes in the ME. I simply asked if the Jews would be willing to accept cash in return for leaving their homes in the ME. I take it that the answer to that question is no, but you believe the Arabs should readily accept the proposition.
 
I only asked why you have no condemnation for Israel expanding its settlements against the terms of the road map but have plenty for Hamas firing rockets into Israel against its terms of the road map?

In general, I expect that the parties should make a good faith effort to honor the terms of their agreements. However, I recognize that the most effective agreements are those that involve concreteness and reciprocity. I also understand the region's history in which unilateral concessions--even in the name of good faith--are ruthlessly exploited by the Arab rejectionists. Certainly, to date, the Palestinians have not fulfilled their security commitments under the Road Map. Hamas, among other terrorist groups, has not been outlawed and no active efforts are underway to disarm such entities.

Therefore, I am not surprised that a formula that strays from concreteness and reciprocity has floundered. That kind of formula should be abandoned. Instead, a realistic framework should guide the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. Then, there would be a better chance that progress could be achieved.

Moreover, there is a big difference between terrorism and settlements. Settlements can be withdrawn. They do not take peoples' lives. Terrorism, on the other hand, takes peoples' lives. Once lost, those lives cannot be recovered.

As for security - do you not agree that with every new settlement which Israel constructs its security is lessened and its security needs increase?

Not necessarily. The situation is much more complex and a simple "settlements mean less security" approach does not capture that complex reality. In fact, if that formula held true, Israel's complete disengagement from the Gaza Strip would have resulted in an end to terrorism from there. The opposite happened. Terrorism from the Gaza Strip increased.

Exactly which UN decisions and resolutions do you think are unfair? Be specific and I will reply.

I've highlighted a number of decisions, positions, comments, and inaction in this subforum. One such example is: http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...ner-human-rights-undermines-human-rights.html

Rocket attacks have been stopped supposedly. Israel has just announced a major new settlement expansion programme. Will this programme now be cancelled?

The situation concerning rocket attacks remains to be seen. The construction was approved within the boundaries of an existing settlement. The approved construction did not mark the start of a new settlement.

The Brits had a mandate to rule, this was not part of their Empire. Also, the mandate expired so who has authority (if not the inhabitants) to decide what happens going forward?

The League of Nations approved Britain's Mandate. The UN devised the formula by which the Mandate would come to a close.

And Poles/Czech's etc have a legitimate right to determine what happens in Poland etc. They have no right to have a say in what happens in a country thousands of miles away.

The British asked the UN to arrange the end of its Mandate. The UN was given responsibility by the sovereign power who had authority over the region.

Israel is a country recognized throughout the world. It will continue to exist regardless of its demographics. A policy which allows ANYONE who is a Jew to move into the land yet stops those who were actually born within the borders and have homes within the borders from returning is inherently religiously discriminatory. If Israel expects to be a part of the international community I am amazed this has been accepted by the Western societies. The UN is supposed to be anti-discrimination not pro-discrimination - this policy should be rejected.

Any immigration policy by virtue of its limits is discriminatory in nature. The only immigration policy that is truly non-discriminatory is either one that bars any immigration whatsoever or provides for completely open borders whereby anyone who wishes to immigrate can freely do so. Neither extreme is practical.

Economic problems in Gaza are caused by an embargo from Israel and the West. Israel has far from disengaged in the strip. They have sealed it off and launched military operations inside it in the last week. Israeli interest in the Gaza strip is far from over.

Things could have been much different had the Gazans seized the enormous opportunities that were made available by the Gaza disengagement. Instead of constructing a viable economy, Gaza's leadership chose to continue to pursue Israel's destruction. Such decisions have consequences. Once Hamas gained political power and then later seized control of the region, those outcomes also had consequences.

No country is obligated to fund or otherwise assist the Hamas regime. Israel, who continues to be victimized by terrorism, has an inherent right of self-defense. Exercise of that right inconveniences the Gaza Strip. But, had the Gazans attempted to disarm the terrorist organizations, dismantle their infrastructure, and embrace the reforms necessary to build a viable economy, the Gaza Strip could have been on the path toward a much better future. Gaza's leaders chose otherwise. They are wholly responsible for the outcome of their bad decisionmaking.​
 
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