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The Saudis Are Breaking Diplomatic Ties With Iran

I couldn't say. From my limited knowledge, I just know that two government run by absolutely horrible people are at each other's throats, and one of those governments is our ally.

Seriously: has any news ever come out of Saudi Arabia that hasn't painted them as just simply awful human beings? I've never seen so much as a "Royal Saudi Family Holds Bake Sale for Orphans!" headline. It's just a ceaseless parade of executions, hand-choppings, limitations of civil liberties and just a general display of making poor people miserable. They barely even give a crap about the ISIS problem, refusing to fight them directly and refusing to take Syrian refugees. As allies go, SA has got to be in the top five worst of all time.

I'd recommend reading Prophets and Princes by Mark Weston if you want a primer on Saudi Arabia that isn't a blood curdling indictment of everything and anything. Additionally Saudi Arabia on the Edge by Thomas Lippmann is an excellent 'updated' account of the problems and policy prescriptions facing the Kingdom. I had lunch with him just before his book was published and I know he still does fantastic work. Couldn't recommend it enough.
 
I'd recommend reading Prophets and Princes by Mark Weston if you want a primer on Saudi Arabia that isn't a blood curdling indictment of everything and anything. Additionally Saudi Arabia on the Edge by Thomas Lippmann is an excellent 'updated' account of the problems and policy prescriptions facing the Kingdom. I had lunch with him just before his book was published and I know he still does fantastic work. Couldn't recommend it enough.

Full disclosure: I am anything but an authority on that country. I'm going exclusively by the drum-beat reporting of awful things that happen as a result of their ruling government. I've never once read or seen anything that ever made me think, "Hey, you know what? Maybe these guys aren't all bad."

But thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a go.
 
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Full disclosure: I am anything but an authority on that country. I'm going exclusively by the drum-beat reporting of awful things that happen as a result of their ruling government. I've never once read or seen anything that ever made me think, "Hey, you know what? These guys aren't all bad."

Part of the problem is that it is a more complex situation, and a more complex state, than it's made out to be. For all of its repressive attitudes toward religious freedom, press freedoms, and of course women's rights it also a highly developed state with extremely low levels of violence, a well funded welfare and support system, a high degree of economic and infrastructural development, and quite frankly an indigenous Monarchy that enjoys broad popular support. The al-Saud has had three iterations and their history dates back to the 18th Century, Imperialism nor Colonialism played any role in their coming to power.

Saudi Arabia is a state that is as much governed by the existing attitudes of a strong conservative section of its people, as it is about the influence and rule of the Monarchy. There are definite limits to the ability of the al-Saud to pursue reform, that being said I think a very strong case can be made for a track record of progressive reform led from above and abetted by evolving social and political conditions. For example the fact that woman's education has been removed from the control of the Ulema was only possible because of the mass public outcry following the Mecca School Fire which give the Monarchy the cover to overrule the religious establishment. Similar the furor after the brutal beating of Rania al-Baz gave them the cover to begin creating shelters for victims of domestic abuse and begin the slow process of reworking protections for women.

It has also provided an avenue for creating these islands of co-educational modernism like the heavily guarded King Abdullah University of Science and Technology where women and men mix freely, where driving by all genders is permitted, and where the veil is not required.

The agitators for democracy in Saudi Arabia at present come, problematically, from a disingenuous Islamist network that has no real desire to see an Islamic democracy, only a chance to unseat the al-Saud, while at the other end of the spectrum you have a mishmash of minority liberals and Shia opponents. Almost every time you see a cleric agitate for democracy in Saudi Arabia they only want it because they know it will bring an even more fundamentalist Islamist state to power. However I think the situation is beginning to change as economic pressures mount, and the impact of globalized technology and culture expands its impact, but at present the greatest force for liberalization has come from the top down.

Moreover, yes it is true that the Saudi's exported Islamism. This began in the 1950's and 1960's as a means to combat the rise of Arab Socialist/Arab Republicanism which was being used as a weapon by likes of Nasser to subvert and destroy the Saudi state. The cold war between Saudi Arabia and Egypt has only been matched in recent times by the one between Iran and the Kingdom. To fortify their rule in the face of assassination attempts, proxy wars, and attempted coups the Saudi's retrenched their religious credentials and created a network of allied Islamist parties abroad. However, this is not the same as funding al-Qaeda. While their religious activities abroad of been brought under a severe international and domestic focus given the nature of our post 9/11 world.

Historically Saudi Arabia has more often than not has been at the forefront of supporting US efforts in the region and abroad. They have backed and supported us in Afghanistan (twice), the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Yemen (complicated but arguably yes), Lebanon numerous times, Syria (with independent but congruent interests), Egypt (during the Cold War), Nicaragua, Iran, the Soviet Union, oil prices and crude ouput (quite often with OPEC), etc.

tl;dr: More often than not the Royal Family is more socially and culturally liberal than broad cross-sections of the people it governs. It is made up of a cosmopolitan, rich, and well traveled elite. This liberality obviously doesn't extend to matters of security but it is frequently a quite apparent distinction.
 
I agree. Only Pakistan might be described as a worse ally than Saudi Arabia.

True at a country level but...

A huge difference when discussing governments. The Pakistani government does not 'control' Pakistan. It's a democratically elected regime. They aren't perfect but walk a fine line trying to keep the nut bars in check and being overthrown by crazies or by the army. The Saudi regime, in contrast, controls Saudi Arabia.

American Presidents understand the constant tensions a Pakistan leader is under.
 
True at a country level but...

A huge difference when discussing governments. The Pakistani government does not 'control' Pakistan. It's a democratically elected regime. They aren't perfect but walk a fine line trying to keep the nut bars in check and being overthrown by crazies or by the army. The Saudi regime, in contrast, controls Saudi Arabia.

American Presidents understand the constant tensions a Pakistan leader is under.

That isn't true. In fact it belies a total misunderstanding of how Saudi Arabia works and its history. No offense meant.
 
True at a country level but...

A huge difference when discussing governments. The Pakistani government does not 'control' Pakistan. It's a democratically elected regime. They aren't perfect but walk a fine line trying to keep the nut bars in check and being overthrown by crazies or by the army. The Saudi regime, in contrast, controls Saudi Arabia.

American Presidents understand the constant tensions a Pakistan leader is under.

Fair point. The Attack on India yesterday is an example of that.
 
True at a country level but...

A huge difference when discussing governments. The Pakistani government does not 'control' Pakistan. It's a democratically elected regime. They aren't perfect but walk a fine line trying to keep the nut bars in check and being overthrown by crazies or by the army. The Saudi regime, in contrast, controls Saudi Arabia.

American Presidents understand the constant tensions a Pakistan leader is under.

The Pakistan situation is a daily horror movie for us. We have a government that is constantly flirting with being a failed state, has nukes, and can be taken over at a moment's notice by elements that are as hostile to Western interests as anybody can boast.
 
Anger, protests spread after Saudi cleric's execution

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei was joined in his condemnation of Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr's death by Iraq's top Shiite authority, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who called the death sentence an unjust act of aggression.

Their comments came as protests in Iran on Sunday spread to Bahrain, Pakistan, Indian Kashmir and Lebanon a day after a mob set fire to the Saudi embassy in Tehran and ransacked it before dozens were arrested.

On top of the ongoing wars in Syria and Yemen, Nimr's execution set the Middle East's main Shiite countries further apart from their Sunni counterpart in Riyadh.

"The unjustly spilt blood of this martyr will have quick consequences," he told clerics in Tehran.

"God will not forgive... it will haunt the politicians of this regime."

Allah will get them for what they did.
 
As long as USA and the West encourage Salafis and Shiites, those problems continue evolving and spreading into other countries. For example, In Balkans the Salafis are spreading very fast thanks to Saudi Arabia, and I am sure the next close conflicts will break out in Balkans.

There are a few sects in Islam, The shia one is always rejecting the others and trying to opress them; that is why Iran is always creating problems. The sunni one(especially Hanafi branch) and also Sufi has no political aims like Shia or Salafi; That is why Ottoman Empire had lived for centuries with all muslims and other religions, and today There is nearly none relgious conflict in Turkey unlike Iran or Middle East.
 
As long as USA and the West encourage Salafis and Shiites, those problems continue evolving and spreading into other countries. For example, In Balkans the Salafis are spreading very fast thanks to Saudi Arabia, and I am sure the next close conflicts will break out in Balkans.

There are a few sects in Islam, The shia one is always rejecting the others and trying to opress them; that is why Iran is always creating problems. The sunni one(especially Hanafi branch) and also Sufi has no political aims like Shia or Salafi; That is why Ottoman Empire had lived for centuries with all muslims and other religions, and today There is nearly none relgious conflict in Turkey unlike Iran or Middle East.

The same issue under a different title.
 
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