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Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'[W:65]

Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

shrubnose said:
It would be deja vu all over again but it's not going to happen.
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I'm just waiting to see Putin on an aircraft carrier with a "Mission Accomplished" sign in Russian. "I can be twice better Bush than Bush."

mission_accomplish_1112950c.jpg
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

joG said:
It is a failed state. Assad has no legitimate say on whom to deny entry anymore.
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That's funny he seems to have exactly a say in who he wants in and he invited the Russians. Quite frankly we should have left him alone to deal with these vermin as he saw fit. ISIS wouldn't be the trouble they are now.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

WCH said:
That's huge number of troops.
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 Makes me suspect they're not just there to fight ISIS.
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And they would need a huge amount of transport and supplies.

How is all of that going to get to Syria?

As others have said I'll believe this when it happens.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

WCH said:
That's huge number of troops.
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Russia lacks the means to logistically support 150,000 trained troops. In addition, they might not have that number of deployable troops to start with. Russian law forbids deploying conscripts with out a declaration of war. Putin tried to get around this for his Ukrainian adventure by asking / coercing consripts to sign special overseas contracts. When a good number refused, he started hiring mercenaries and press ganging convicts.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

joG said:
I understand your line of thought, but disagree. The one time dictator is now no longer guaranteeing security in the country nor does he any longer even control most of the land. De facto he is a warlord among others albeit one of the most powerful. He also lost his legitimacy, when he stopped taking responsibility to protect his subjects and started killing them en masse to maintain his dynasty.

As for Putin, it is clear that he is a serious danger as he is propagating and driving us into a multi polar global security structure. This is dangerous, because these structures are always instable and will invariably lead to major war. To this strategy of multipolarization belongs active agitation and activities against r2p, continuous activities to weaken the USA and propaganda against the US. Russia has factually restarted the Cold War under today's circumstances. So it might be good to involve him in an extended war with proxies to waste him slowly. Whether it would make sense to eliminate Assad could be discussed under that aspect.
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I might make a wager with you. I wonder, when this mess is cleared up, and assuming elections are again allowed and the people who have become refugees in the EU countries decide it's safe to return to Syria, whether Assad could win in a fair and square election. I say that because I think the Alawites, Shia, Christians and Druz; which are at least 30% of the population - then add in the Sunni merchant class - would vote for him. Care to take that wager? Loser buys drinks in the tavern... if we live that long! :mrgreen: -
 
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Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

Cryptic said:
Russia lacks the means to logistically support 150,000 trained troops. In addition, they might not have that number of deployable troops to start with. Russian law forbids deploying conscripts with out a declaration of war. Putin tried to get around this for his Ukrainian adventure by asking / coercing consripts to sign special overseas contracts. When a good number refused, he started hiring mercenaries and press ganging convicts.
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The blue ... wtf?!?! Where did you get this from?!?


Fallen.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

Fallenangel said:
The blue ... wtf?!?! Where did you get this from?!?


Fallen.
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Ok, I"ll chant the Russia Today slogans:

Putin's well conceived Holy War for Donetsk was greeted with patriotic fervor by all Russian citizens. So many flocked to the colors that conscription has ended in Russia and there was never any need to send Chechens.
 
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Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

Fallenangel said:
Huh?!?

Fallen.
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Fallenangel said:
The blue ... wtf?!?! Where did you get this from?!?


Fallen.
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Ok, I"ll chant the Russia Today slogans:

Putin's well conceived Holy War for Donetsk was greeted with patriotic fervor by all Russian citizens. So many Russians flocked to the colors that conscription has ended in Russia and there was never any need to send Chechens.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

Cryptic said:
Ok, I"ll chant the Russia Today slogans:

Putin's well conceived Holy War for Donetsk was greeted with patriotic fervor by all Russian citizens. So many Russians flocked to the colors that conscription has ended in Russia and there was never any need to send Chechens.
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Or ... instead of getting butthurt (as you guys usually do), you could provide a source for the claims you've just made, especially regarding convicts.

PS. In my stay here on DP I think I've posted only twice or so things from RT ... be smarter next time.

Fallen.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

Anomalism said:
Putin 'to send 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State' | Latest News | Breaking UK News & World News Headlines | Daily Star

The Russian leader is reportedly mounting an enormous military mission to take control of the terror group's stronghold of Raqqa. The city is the self-declared capital of ISIS in Syria and is patrolled by as many as 5,000 jihadi members. Putin is set to mobilise 150,000 reservists who he conscripted into the military earlier this week. An insider revealed: "It is very clear that Russia wants to sweep up the west of the country, taking Raqqa and all the oil and gas resources around Palmyra. "This is fast becoming a race to Raqqa – to secure the oil fields they need to cleanse the region of insurgents, and the IS capital is vital to do that." It comes a day after Russian jets obliterated nine ISIS outposts in just 24 hours using bunker-busting bombs.
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...and the source for that number and info is...?!?!

The only thing I could find is that Russian MoD expects to receive approx 150 thousand fresh conscripts this fall, which would be probably battle ready in a year at best, if at all.

Fallen.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

Such a manifestation of power (which I severely doubt exists) would just lead to a confluence of fp goals from saudi, turkey and qatar (et al.) that the venture would be self defeating. The opposition would naturally coalesce, and the idea that all rebels are insane islamists will self fulfil.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

PirateMk1 said:
That's funny he seems to have exactly a say in who he wants in and he invited the Russians. Quite frankly we should have left him alone to deal with these vermin as he saw fit. ISIS wouldn't be the trouble they are now.
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In the wrangling for land and relativ dominance between warlords it is a well known stragegy of players to ask in a foreign power to help against payment. Others have been asking for Western and Arab engagement. And we actually did leave him largely alone, till he started killing his population.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

polgara said:
I might make a wager with you. I wonder, when this mess is cleared up, and assuming elections are again allowed and the people who have become refugees in the EU countries decide it's safe to return to Syria, whether Assad could win in a fair and square election. I say that because I think the Alawites, Shia, Christians and Druz; which are at least 30% of the population - then add in the Sunni merchant class - would vote for him. Care to take that wager? Loser buys drinks in the tavern... if we live that long! :mrgreen: -
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This seems quite true and surprised me at the start of this. Why did Assad propose the Constitution he did and did not hold a referendum well monitored by international organizations before civil unrest set in. Had he done so, he would probably be the elected president of a wonderful country. The danger of revolution had become well visible over the previous years.

Now he has committed well documented crimes against humanity and war crimes. Now I realize the weakness of these concepts and would much prefer them to be better defined and then robustly maintained. But as it stands, there is no way the world community should allow the precedent of that man resuming power.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

polgara said:
I wonder, when this mess is cleared up, and assuming elections are again allowed and the people who have become refugees in the EU countries decide it's safe to return to Syria, whether Assad could win in a fair and square election.
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I may be wrong, but I tend to doubt Syria will return to is pre-Civil War reality anytime soon. Sectarian dismemberment is a much more likely fate.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

polgara said:
Greetings, JoG. :2wave:

Assad is still the ruler of Syria, whether the U.S. likes it or not, so it is not a failed state, and he has every right to ask an ally for help, just as our allies do with us! I don't have to agree with Putin and the way he does things, but in this case he is operating openly for all the world to see, and since he isn't furtively sneaking into Syria, that's a BIG plus in many people's book! :thumbs:
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Yeah totally! I mean, sure, he has killed tens or hundreds of thousands of civilians and routinely carpet bombs civilians (and has repeatedly used chemical weapons to target civilians), but totally legitimate, acting out in the open for the world to see...

But seriously, I'm always interested to understand how people impart legitimacy on non-democratic governments. And I know democracy there isn't possible, but what makes one thug who managed to seize or hold onto power more or less legitimate than any other? The only government in that region (besides the Israelis) that seems legitimate IMO are the Jordanians, and that view is really only based on the relative interest that the government appears to place in promoting and protecting the well-being of the population. Absent democratic election or some level of benevolence towards the people, I don't see how anyone could call the ruling person/group in any of these places "legitimate".
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

CJ 2.0 said:
Yeah totally! I mean, sure, he has killed tens or hundreds of thousands of civilians and routinely carpet bombs civilians (and has repeatedly used chemical weapons to target civilians), but totally legitimate, acting out in the open for the world to see...

But seriously, I'm always interested to understand how people impart legitimacy on non-democratic governments. And I know democracy there isn't possible, but what makes one thug who managed to seize or hold onto power more or less legitimate than any other? The only government in that region (besides the Israelis) that seems legitimate IMO are the Jordanians, and that view is really only based on the relative interest that the government appears to place in promoting and protecting the well-being of the population. Absent democratic election or some level of benevolence towards the people, I don't see how anyone could call the ruling person/group in any of these places "legitimate".
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Greetings, CJ 2.0. :2wave:

Well, prior to the Sunni rebels attempting to overthrow him, with our help, he had a high approval rating from his people, since he also seemed to protect their well being, which are a diverse mix of different groups, including Christians. The population in the ME, for the most part, doesn't seem to understand or want democracy, since they have been ruled by one dictator after another for a thousand years. Assad was thought to be one of the most "Western thinking" rulers over there, much like Israel and Jordan, having lived in London while attending college to become a opthamologist. He is not a thug, like some over there, and he became ruler by default after his older brother, who had been trained to rule, died.

I think we are hearing a lot of propaganda against him, and I don't know how much of it is true, but I recall that several years ago, there were entirely different stories about him than we are hearing now that the U.S. wants to replace him with someone of our choosing. Russia has been having great success in harming ISIS the past few weeks, in addition to protecting Assad, who was duly elected by his people to govern them. The rebels trained by us are also killing people by the thousands in Syria, but we don't hear much about that, so I don't have the answers to what is happening over there, or what the real truth of the matter might be. Time will tell.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

polgara said:
Greetings, CJ 2.0. :2wave:

Well, prior to the Sunni rebels attempting to overthrow him, with our help, he had a high approval rating from his people, since he also seemed to protect their well being, which are a diverse mix of different groups, including Christians. The population in the ME, for the most part, doesn't seem to understand or want democracy, since they have been ruled by one dictator after another for a thousand years. Assad was thought to be one of the most "Western thinking" rulers over there, much like Israel and Jordan, having lived in London while attending college to become a opthamologist. He is not a thug, like some over there, and he became ruler by default after his older brother, who had been trained to rule, died.

I think we are hearing a lot of propaganda against him, and I don't know how much of it is true, but I recall that several years ago, there were entirely different stories about him than we are hearing now that the U.S. wants to replace him with someone of our choosing. Russia has been having great success in harming ISIS the past few weeks, in addition to protecting Assad, who was duly elected by his people to govern them. The rebels trained by us are also killing people by the thousands in Syria, but we don't hear much about that, so I don't have the answers to what is happening over there, or what the real truth of the matter might be. Time will tell.
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We WERE hearing propaganda. reformer blah blah from Clinton et al and nice exposes of his progressive wife shopping for luxuries.

His father was a thug and he is a thug. Just because he wears a suit and pays for school in the west doesn't change that.

And this didn't start out as a conflict between him and ISIS. it started out with legitimate protests that he treated as thugs generally do. Which included murdering and mutilating children because they participated in protests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hamza_Ali_Al-Khateeb).

As for justging anything in such a country by polls, I think it goes without aying they are highly dubious. Just because Saddam Hussein had 99.9% approval ratings doesn't mean people actually supported him.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

CJ 2.0 said:
We WERE hearing propaganda. reformer blah blah from Clinton et al and nice exposes of his progressive wife shopping for luxuries.

His father was a thug and he is a thug. Just because he wears a suit and pays for school in the west doesn't change that.

And this didn't start out as a conflict between him and ISIS. it started out with legitimate protests that he treated as thugs generally do.

As for justging anything in such a country by polls, I think it goes without aying they are highly dubious. Just because Saddam Hussein had 99.9% approval ratings doesn't mean people actually supported him.
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Tis true. However, Saddam and the other dictators over there all had one redeeming feature that most people agree with . . . they kept the lid on the pressure cooker that is the ME. Look at the free-for-all it has turned into today - "improvements" like that the world didn't need. :thumbdown:
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

polgara said:
Tis true. However, Saddam and the other dictators over there all had one redeeming feature that most people agree with . . . they kept the lid on the pressure cooker that is the ME. Look at the free-for-all it has turned into today - "improvements" like that the world didn't need. :thumbdown:
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Hey, I totally get all that (no sarcasm this time). But again, going back to legitimacy, I don't see how Assad is anymore of a legitimate ruler than Saddam was or Nasser was - they or their folks seize power and then maintain it for their own benefit and for the benefit of their own support groups, while using fear and violence to maintain control over a population. How does that make Assad any more "legitimate" a ruler than ISIS (and of course I'm not suggesting ISIS is better etc)?
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

I think one reason Putin may be concerned about the jihadists in Syria, aside from defending Assad's regime, is that there are more than a few of the same stripe right in Russia. We all know about the mayhem that Islamists in Chechnya have caused, which included several large terrorist attacks against schools, theaters, apartment buildings, etc. in Moscow and other parts of Russia. And now various groups of Russian-speaking jihadists, even if so far they are fairly small, have joined the fight in Syria.

According to Long War Journal, a group of Crimean Tartars set up a training camp in Hama province earlier this year and has now pledged allegiance to Al Nusrah Front. One "brigade" of this front is made up mostly of Chechens. A few days earlier, a group made up mostly of Uzbekhs had also pledged allegiance to Al Nusrah. The U.S. has just designated several members of the Islamic State and the Islamic Caucuses Emirate as global terrorists. It's interesting to see the names of some of these people are Atabiyev, Chatayev, and Guchayev. Not quite the sort of names we've gotten used to seeing in reports about jihadists.

One incidental benefit of the Russian military intervention in Syria could be that it draws these people away from their home turf and into open warfare in other areas. That may make them easier to capture or kill.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

CJ 2.0 said:
Hey, I totally get all that (no sarcasm this time). But again, going back to legitimacy, I don't see how Assad is anymore of a legitimate ruler than Saddam was or Nasser was - they or their folks seize power and then maintain it for their own benefit and for the benefit of their own support groups, while using fear and violence to maintain control over a population. How does that make Assad any more "legitimate" a ruler than ISIS (and of course I'm not suggesting ISIS is better etc)?
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I'm hearing a lot of talk lately about the "dynasties" that have existed in America - the Rockefellers, Mellons, Roosevelts, Kennedys, Clintons, Bushes, etc. When families have money, they have influence, and they like to be in charge. Joe "average guy on the street" here need not concern himself with running government any more than Abdullah "average guy on the street" does over there. It may not be ideal, either here or there, but such is life. And I am not saying that the two groups share anything in common except that their families stay involved and continue on the path the family has chosen. Monarchies operate in almost the same way, so doesn't it seem that accident of birth plays a large part in determining who rules over others? In cultures like ancient Egypt, they even married their sisters to stay in power. :shock: The love of Power is indeed a heady thing!
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

polgara said:
I'm hearing a lot of talk lately about the "dynasties" that have existed in America - the Rockefellers, Mellons, Roosevelts, Kennedys, Clintons, Bushes, etc. When families have money, they have influence, and they like to be in charge. Joe "average guy on the street" here need not concern himself with running government any more than Abdullah "average guy on the street" does over there. It may not be ideal, either here or there, but such is life. And I am not saying that the two groups share anything in common except that their families stay involved and continue on the path the family has chosen. Monarchies operate in almost the same way, so doesn't it seem that accident of birth plays a large part in determining who rules over others? In cultures like ancient Egypt, they even married their sisters to stay in power. :shock: The love of Power is indeed a heady thing!
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I don't even know how to respond to this. It is patently absurd as a response to a question of how you impart legitimacy on a government like Assad's, and I hope you reconsider how you got from the discussion we were having to what you decided to write.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez_al-Assad

(Daddy) Assad participated in the 1963 Syrian coup d'état which brought the Syrian Regional Branch of the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party to power, and was appointed Commander of the Syrian Air Force by the new leadership. In 1966, Assad participated in a second coup, which toppled the traditional leaders of the Ba'ath Party, and brought a radical military faction headed by Salah Jadid to power. Assad was appointed defense minister by the new government. In 1970 Assad seized power by toppling Jadid, and appointed himself the undisputed leader of Syria in the period 1970–71.
 
Re: Putin 'sending 150,000 soldiers to Syria to WIPE OUT evil Islamic State'

polgara said:
Tis true. However, Saddam and the other dictators over there all had one redeeming feature that most people agree with . . . they kept the lid on the pressure cooker that is the ME. Look at the free-for-all it has turned into today - "improvements" like that the world didn't need. :thumbdown:
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No they didn't keep a lid on the pressure cooker, coz this is where we are now. It exploded in their faces, and the pattern of failure of the 'secular' dictatorship in this region is far more obvious than external causes,
 
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