Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In [W:36]

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

rocket88 said:

Really? The whole population of Palestine?

Honestly, I don't care who's what ethicity there. If you murdered someone, you should go to jail. If it was settlers, jews, Palestinians, or a bunch of Tatars who just happened to be passing through on a tourist visa, prosecute them

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Did you hear or see any Palestinian who condemned the act? Besides Abbas's statement, all I've seen was praises and rejoice from the common people to political leaders like Mashal.
BTW, Even when Abbas does it, he must add that he condemns the actions of the IDF in the same statement.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Not my circus.

Not my monkeys.

I think time would be better spent cleaning up Chicago and L.A.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

mendelssohn said:

I have seen such demonstrations up close and the stones they are throwing can easily kill someone if hit with it in the head. Israelis very rarely respond with live fire, but rather use rubber bullets as many other police forces worldwide would do.

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Sorry, but fully armed and kitted out IDF soldiers have little or nothing to fear from stoning youths. Especially not when they are in or near their armed vehicles.

And rubber bullets can also kill, as proved by a study in the Lancet. In which it found that 2 people died due to penetrating ocular injury into the brain.

The study showed that of the 151 males and females that were included in the study, 61 were hit by rubber bullets in the head, neck and face, 39 were hit in the chest.

It also said that

However, in 42 patients with 57 moderately severe or severe injuries (18 skull injuries, 11 chest, three abdominal, and 25 limb), severe contusion, bone fractures, and penetrating injuries in body areas with high elasticity, viscosity, or both were noted, suggesting that bullets were fired from close range.

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http://www.orwatch.org/doc-en/rubber_bullets_Israeli-arab_conflict.pdf


In 2007 a 10 year old girl was killed by Israeli border guards, from rubber bullets to the head.

Palestinian girl was killed by border guards' rubber bullet, judge rules | World news | theguardian.com

B'tselem has reported that no fewer than 21 Palestinians have died from rubber bullets since the start of the second intifada. Now the soldiers are properly instructed as far as I know but that did not stop rubber bullets from killing 21 Palestinians.

'Israeli troops use rubber bullets against IDF regulations' - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz

mendelssohn said:

It is indeed much easier to be killed by a killing shot in the West Bank, but that would account for Jewish victims mostly. Another three this last week, apparently.

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That is not true and that is very easily proved, without the three kids killed this week, 18 Israeli civilians have been killed in the occupied territories and 10 inside of Israel (from January 19 2009 until May 31 2014). During that time Palestinians also killed 7 IDF personnel of which zero were killed by stones (4 from gunfire, 1 from an explosion, 1 from stabbing, 1 from throwing into a cistern).

Compared to about 571 Palestinians who died, it is a bit nonsensical to say that being killed by a should would account for Jewish victims mostly. Only 10 of the 18 killed Israeli's was killed due to gunfire.

And if I only go to the 179 people B'tselem states that have been killed by the IDF, even though they did not participate in hostilities, the number of fatalities due to bullets is too much to count in a short time (have better things to do).

Don't get me wrong, every murdered Israeli is two to many because I do not want anybody killed, but the number of Palestinians killed and Israeli's killed is not comparable.

mendelssohn said:

Finally, while condemnations are rolling in against hypothetical perpetrators from all sides, I'm left wondering why the condemnations for the previous kidnapping were so slow in coming, and if the same seriousness would be given if it would be a clear-cut case of an Arab killing another Arab.

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If an Arab is killed by another Arab it is a murder and the guilty party will most likely be prosecuted and punished, when a Palestinian gets killed by someone of the occupying forces there will most likely not be a prosecution or conviction.

And of course the is condemnation, whoever killed those 3 kids should be caught and prosecuted as are the person or persons guilty for the killing of the Arab kid.

It is a horrible situation and both sides will have to compromise to achieve real and permanent peace.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Peter King said:

That is not true and that is very easily proved, without the three kids killed this week, 18 Israeli civilians have been killed in the occupied territories and 10 inside of Israel (from January 19 2009 until May 31 2014). During that time Palestinians also killed 7 IDF personnel of which zero were killed by stones (4 from gunfire, 1 from an explosion, 1 from stabbing, 1 from throwing into a cistern).

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Again, you are spreading false information, you know nothing about IDF rules of engagement. Throwing a stone is not reason enough to open fire, especially live rounds. Rubber bullets are indeed deadly and this is why you must use them according to regulations. Both IDF troops and Border Guards policemen where trailed and convicted in the past when they used them against regulations.

As for the part I quoted above. Stone throwing may not have killed anyone in the period of time you are talking about, but it sure did cause serious injuries, as a direct and indirect result to many people, one notable case is a 3 year old child who became a vegetable

Many more around the world here:
https://www.google.co.il/search?q=i...&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=injured+stones+throwing

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

To say that Israeli soldiers (or citizens, for that matter, since they may likewise be in the area) have nothing to fear from stoning Palestinians is ridiculous. You may be kitted out all you want. No one is at ease or safe when large pieces of concrete are thrown at them. I have seen it from close by and you are completely missing the mark.

I never said rubber bullets are harmless or that they are not unable to kill in some extreme cases. My comparison was also not with the general deaths or killings in action, but rather by point-blank execution, as we have witnessed last week, to which you hinted when you said 'shot in the back or the head'. Even when rubber bullets are used, they are meant to quell violence, not deliberately to kill. How you are even comparing the two is incomprehensible. And thank you for the numbers of B'Tselem, ever the objective source. They do good work. They also call Israel an 'Apartheid state' and accuse it of war crimes. Perhaps you can enlighten us with similarly meticulous numbers on the casualties on the other side, say by organizations such as Stand With Us and The Israel Project. Or perhaps their numbers and details are not as interesting to quote.

The condemnations were not there when the Israeli boys were kidnapped. It took 2-3 days till the first heads of state started mentioning it. Here we have an unclear case which is unresolved. Already it tops the headlines, with fierce cries that this should be punished to the absolute. If it would be an Arab killing another Arab over a, say, domestic issue, the international media wouldn't even have mentioned it.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

ido_ said:

Again, you are spreading false information, you know nothing about IDF rules of engagement. Throwing a stone is not reason enough to open fire, especially live rounds. Rubber bullets are indeed deadly and this is why you must use them according to regulations. Both IDF troops and Border Guards policemen where trailed and convicted in the past when they used them against regulations.

As for the part I quoted above. Stone throwing may not have killed anyone in the period of time you are talking about, but it sure did cause serious injuries, as a direct and indirect result to many people, one notable case is a 3 year old child who became a vegetable

Many more around the world here:
https://www.google.co.il/search?q=i...&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=injured+stones+throwing

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I was talking about Palestinians being shot dead because they were throwing stones or stood close to where stones where being thrown from.

And that kid was not wounded by stones but by a car accident caused by throwing stones.

And the punishment for killing people by not doing things according to the regulations? Nothing in comparison to the punishment that Palestinians get.


How would someone in the US react, if that Boston bomber youth had been standing on the doorstep of a heavily populated compound/flat, possibly armed, and the closest police/army presence would have been an Apache helicopter and that the chopper had just fired off missiles at the spot where the boston bomber brother had stood but it would also have been responsible of killing a 1 year old child, a 2 year old child, a 4 year old child, a 5 year old child and their mother who were sitting in their back yard eating breakfast. The country would be in an uproar.

I am not downplaying the horrendous plight of that poor child who became a vegetable far from it, it should never have happened, but throwing rocks at IDF vehicles or soldiers should not be a justification for death penalty without due process.

But how about the plight of the Hilmi Shusha, the 11 year old that was beaten to death by a Jewish settler who was subsequently sentenced to 6 months community service, 8 months jail time already spent and 11,600 UK pounds as a fine. Some kids who throw rocks where no one is injured have to spend longer than that in jail.

I am not for violence, far from it, I think it is horrible and almost always counter productive. I hope that peace comes to that region because both the Israeli and Palestinians deserve peace, quiet and justice.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Sababa said:

Actually the Israeli coroner will tell you what caused the death, the investigation by the police will see who did it but of course I can imagine that since there is evidence that it might be that he was killed for being gay you will ignore that.
Oh well, bigots being bigots is going to happen.

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Life is so much better when you're not constantly having bursts of faux outrage over things you're talking out of your ass about.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Jango said:

Life is so much better when you're not constantly having bursts of faux outrage over things you're talking out of your ass about.

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I see you claim the Israeli coroner will lie and I am talking out of my ass. Go take your hate and bigotry somewhere else.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Sababa said:

I see you claim the Israeli coroner will lie and I am talking out of my ass. Go take your hate and bigotry somewhere else.

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Oh yeah, that's what I claimed huh? Show me.

Even if I did, so what? It's now bigoted to think that people lie? Interesting philosophy you've got there.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Israel and Palestine have been a lost cause for a long time now. Obama was foolish for trying to fix the conflict. There's nothing more to see here.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Moderator's Warning:

OK. Some infractions have been handed out. Cease the personal stuff or more will be.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Peter King said:

...I am not for violence, far from it, I think it is horrible and almost always counter productive. I hope that peace comes to that region because both the Israeli and Palestinians deserve peace, quiet and justice.

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A genuine justice would be the best solution. Well said.

The memes in this theatre are unfortunately very strong and a huge 'entitlement culture' has developed where any relinquishing of privilege is seen as giving up something rather than attaining a just solution. But hey, those uranium tipped stones can be bloody lethal.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

William Rea said:

A genuine justice would be the best solution. Well said.

The memes in this theatre are unfortunately very strong and a huge 'entitlement culture' has developed where any relinquishing of privilege is seen as giving up something rather than attaining a just solution. But hey, those uranium tipped stones can be bloody lethal.

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Again with the "harmless stones" argument?



Israel News - Israel Female Soldier Wounded by Palestinian Stone Thrower Returns to IDF - JerusalemOnline

Tel HaShomer Hospital pictures indicated that she had broken her jaw and had two fractures in the chin. After fixing her jaw, she could not open her mouth, eat normally or talk for a month.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of_Asher_and_Yonatan_Palmer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yehuda_Shoham

Israeli baby hurt during West Bank clashes - Israel News, Ynetnews

A 16-month-old Israeli baby suffered light injuries when a stone struck her head in a riot between Tapuah and Migdalim junctions.

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3-year-old critically injured by stones near Ariel - Israel News, Ynetnews

A woman and her three daughters were injured on Thursday in a car accident caused by stones hurled by Palestinians on Route 5 connecting Tel Aviv and Ariel.

One of the girls, three-year-old Adele, was critically wounded, while the mother, Adva Biton, 40, and her two other daughters, Avigail and Naama - ages four and five - sustained moderate injuries.

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But hey, it's just Israeli Jews getting hurt and killed by your harmless "uranium tipped" rocks, so who cares? They probably deserve it.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Yes, when thrown at the soldiers (when the kids are being shot dead) they are barely dangerous stones.

But I agree, those who throw rocks at children need to be punished, but then this should also go for the people (whom ever they are, I do not recognize the gear) who kicked and beat the hell out of Tariq Kheidr, even if he had thrown rocks (which is not proven by any means), this does not warrant such kind of behavior.



A story about it can be found here

Arab-American cousin of murdered Palestinian teen reportedly beaten by Israeli police | JPost | Israel News

In the story one can read this comment:

Israel Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld was quoted by the New York Times as saying that the footage was "edited and biased," and that it "did not represent the scope of events."

Rosenfeld told the Times that Tariq was one of six people who had been arrested Thursday after clashes in which 15 police officers were injured.

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Well, no matter how edited something is, that last kick to the face at the 40 second mark, to an (what looks like) unconscious 15 year old American citizen cannot be defended under any circumstance.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Peter King said:

I was talking about Palestinians being shot dead because they were throwing stones or stood close to where stones where being thrown from.

And that kid was not wounded by stones but by a car accident caused by throwing stones.

And the punishment for killing people by not doing things according to the regulations? Nothing in comparison to the punishment that Palestinians get.


How would someone in the US react, if that Boston bomber youth had been standing on the doorstep of a heavily populated compound/flat, possibly armed, and the closest police/army presence would have been an Apache helicopter and that the chopper had just fired off missiles at the spot where the boston bomber brother had stood but it would also have been responsible of killing a 1 year old child, a 2 year old child, a 4 year old child, a 5 year old child and their mother who were sitting in their back yard eating breakfast. The country would be in an uproar.

I am not downplaying the horrendous plight of that poor child who became a vegetable far from it, it should never have happened, but throwing rocks at IDF vehicles or soldiers should not be a justification for death penalty without due process.

But how about the plight of the Hilmi Shusha, the 11 year old that was beaten to death by a Jewish settler who was subsequently sentenced to 6 months community service, 8 months jail time already spent and 11,600 UK pounds as a fine. Some kids who throw rocks where no one is injured have to spend longer than that in jail.

I am not for violence, far from it, I think it is horrible and almost always counter productive. I hope that peace comes to that region because both the Israeli and Palestinians deserve peace, quiet and justice.

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The problem is your base premise that the IDF shoots stone throwers. This is absolutly false. If any shooting is done in such riots its with rubber bullets and only on a very specific individual and under strict regulations on where to aim and the distance to the target. It is very rare that people get killed in such riots, as evidence look at the past week of riots on east Jerusalem and Wadi Ara which were immensely violent with zero casualties. Its not like violent protests don't end up with deaths on other places around the world, its not all sterile and nice when you try to keep a violent protest under control.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Jango said:

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see about that prosecution as well what the Israeli coroner has to say about the (Palestinian) boy's death.

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Well the body is already burned from Israelis (according to the Palestinian victim family). What they can do is claim if the body was burned after the teenager was already dead, or whether the burning is the cause of death. Either way this is murder for people no longer self-combust.

The coroner cannot really state who killed the teenager. This will be up to investigators whom probably would interview the family victim and potential witnesses.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

DDD said:

Well the body is already burned from Israelis (according to the Palestinian victim family). What they can do is claim if the body was burned after the teenager was already dead, or whether the burning is the cause of death. Either way this is murder for people no longer self-combust.

The coroner cannot really state who killed the teenager. This will be up to investigators whom probably would interview the family victim and potential witnesses.

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I heard on the radio today that the police has leads (still confidential, they release no information on the investigation to the press) and they say they will get to the murderers soon enough. The police still say the motive is unclear (both criminal and national motives are being investigated).

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

ido_ said:

I heard on the radio today that the police has leads (still confidential, they release no information on the investigation to the press) and they say they will get to the murderers soon enough. The police still say the motive is unclear (both criminal and national motives are being investigated).

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You divide national and criminal motives. But the worst part is when the two are one of the same.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

DDD said:

You divide national and criminal motives. But the worst part is when the two are one of the same.

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They are the same, and the punishment after trail is the same, but the public is much more shocked by hate crimes on race or national motives than it is by underworld wars. The riots in Jerusalem would not have sparked if this was a clear criminal act rather than a murder of racist nature

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

ido_ said:

The problem is your base premise that the IDF shoots stone throwers. This is absolutly false. If any shooting is done in such riots its with rubber bullets and only on a very specific individual and under strict regulations on where to aim and the distance to the target. It is very rare that people get killed in such riots, as evidence look at the past week of riots on east Jerusalem and Wadi Ara which were immensely violent with zero casualties. Its not like violent protests don't end up with deaths on other places around the world, its not all sterile and nice when you try to keep a violent protest under control.

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That is your opinion and even inside of Israel people doubt that opinion, especially human rights organisations. And again, shooting a stone thrower who is throwing stones at an IDF patrol is not a reason to shoot and kill someone. B'tselem has shown on several occasions that there was no need for shooting and killing under aged youths.

But here is one story from Haaretz

Video: Palestinians shot dead at Nakba Day protest did not threaten soldiers - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz

and now the website from B'tselem is up again here is the rest of this story:

B'Tselem's initial findings on Nakba Day incident at Bitunya: grave suspicion that forces willfully killed two Palestinians, injured two others | B'Tselem


Or this case

Responsibility for killing 14-year-old Palestinian lies primarily with commanders who ordered armed ambush | B'Tselem

Or this case (which is evidence of multiple cases)

Five Palestinians killed in 14 months when soldiers in ambush used lethal force | B'Tselem

Also, when settlers are throwing stones at Palestinian civilians they are not stopped by the IDF (several video evidences exist of this) but instead they protect the settlers from the people they are victimizing. The same goes when settlers destroy crops, etc. etc. etc.

I think that if Palestinians police would shoot israeli's settlers who were doing the same things that the palestinians were accused of doing (throwing stones, damaging stuff etc.) they would be arrested and prosecuted or shot on sight.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Peter King said:

That is your opinion and even inside of Israel people doubt that opinion, especially human rights organisations. And again, shooting a stone thrower who is throwing stones at an IDF patrol is not a reason to shoot and kill someone. B'tselem has shown on several occasions that there was no need for shooting and killing under aged youths.

But here is one story from Haaretz

Video: Palestinians shot dead at Nakba Day protest did not threaten soldiers - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz

and now the website from B'tselem is up again here is the rest of this story:

B'Tselem's initial findings on Nakba Day incident at Bitunya: grave suspicion that forces willfully killed two Palestinians, injured two others | B'Tselem


Or this case

Responsibility for killing 14-year-old Palestinian lies primarily with commanders who ordered armed ambush | B'Tselem

Or this case (which is evidence of multiple cases)

Five Palestinians killed in 14 months when soldiers in ambush used lethal force | B'Tselem

Also, when settlers are throwing stones at Palestinian civilians they are not stopped by the IDF (several video evidences exist of this) but instead they protect the settlers from the people they are victimizing. The same goes when settlers destroy crops, etc. etc. etc.

I think that if Palestinians police would shoot israeli's settlers who were doing the same things that the palestinians were accused of doing (throwing stones, damaging stuff etc.) they would be arrested and prosecuted or shot on sight.

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Nothing of what I've wrote is an opinion, it is all factual. These are the army regulations, throwing stones is not on its own a reason enough to get shot certainly not by live rounds

Your comment on the settlers is also false. On our last reserve duty our brigade was dealing with settler rioters on daily basis.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

ido_ said:

Nothing of what I've wrote is an opinion, it is all factual. These are the army regulations, throwing stones is not on its own a reason enough to get shot certainly not by live rounds

Your comment on the settlers is also false. On our last reserve duty our brigade was dealing with settler rioters on daily basis.

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On the below video you can clearly see settlers throw rocks and an IDF soldier just trying to gently nudge them away from there, not shooting/tear gas/arresting etc. etc.



And I know, not every soldier may do it, I would assume most would not but it does not make these things not happen.

And yes, if you watched/read the evidence or highly suggestible evidence I just posted from incidents from only the past years you can see it does happen. Just like there are instances in which protesters are hit in the back of the head with rubber bullets in such a manner that they die from it, even though it should never be used to close or to the head region of someone.

Most IDF soldiers are no doubt trustworthy and honorable but a lot of things happen on both sides of the conflict in the Gaza and West Bank that are not honorable or trustworthy, that is a fact of life even if some are unwilling to recognize it.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Peter King said:

On the below video you can clearly see settlers throw rocks and an IDF soldier just trying to gently nudge them away from there, not shooting/tear gas/arresting etc. etc.



And I know, not every soldier may do it, I would assume most would not but it does not make these things not happen.

And yes, if you watched/read the evidence or highly suggestible evidence I just posted from incidents from only the past years you can see it does happen. Just like there are instances in which protesters are hit in the back of the head with rubber bullets in such a manner that they die from it, even though it should never be used to close or to the head region of someone.

Most IDF soldiers are no doubt trustworthy and honorable but a lot of things happen on both sides of the conflict in the Gaza and West Bank that are not honorable or trustworthy, that is a fact of life even if some are unwilling to recognize it.

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Giving me a few videos is no indication on whats going on on the ground. What is important is what is the normal behavior and not recordings of some irregular incidents which Palestinian propaganda celebrates with.
The rule of majority is that IDF personal confronts with settlers when they are behaving like outlaws.
The rule of majority is that when Palestinians are rioting and throw stones they are not being shot.
All of the abnormal cases needs to be investigated and charges need to be pressed when required. Israel demonstrated on numerous cases that she knows to do this.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

ido_ said:

Giving me a few videos is no indication on whats going on on the ground. What is important is what is the normal behavior and not recordings of some irregular incidents which Palestinian propaganda celebrates with.
The rule of majority is that IDF personal confronts with settlers when they are behaving like outlaws.
The rule of majority is that when Palestinians are rioting and throw stones they are not being shot.
All of the abnormal cases needs to be investigated and charges need to be pressed when required. Israel demonstrated on numerous cases that she knows to do this.

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Yes, but they are not being investigated. The brass usually ignores this.

They should be but they are not.

The problems continue with the settlers, from attacking Palestinian houses, from closed orders that keeps every Palestinian indoors for long periods of time as a sort of punishment for the entire palestinian area (it has happened, B'selem and other have reported on this), the roads keeping palestinians of their own land, etc. etc. etc.

Like this video, shooting and throwing tear gas grenades when it does not look like a riot situation and at the end you can see one IDF soldier pointing to a small group of what looks like Palestinians and the soldier then firing almost point blank a tear gas grenade towards these retreating Palestinians.



Or pointing a loaded weapon into someones face when there is no threat to that soldier at all



Or this police officer headbutting a woman and a man



Or these soldiers standing by while settlers throw stones?



As said, violence happens on both sides of the conflict but this kind of behavior leads to problems with those who are occupied and beaten/dehumanized/etc. etc.

Re: Clashes In Jerusalem Between Israeli Police, Palestinians After Body Found In For

Peter King said:

Yes, but they are not being investigated. The brass usually ignores this.

They should be but they are not.

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How do you know?

Fallen.