New Pal murder-bombing

Shayah said:

What's the big deal with Hamas amending its founding Charter? How can Israel (or any nation) negotiate in confidence with an entity that refuses to disavow continued violence per its governing Charter? Why would any nation attempt peace negotiations when the ideological doctrine of its negotiating partner vows continued violence with no caveats? What leads you to believe that any negotiated peace settlement superceeds the Hamas Charter? One has to ask themself why Hamas can't - or won't - amend its Charter. Such a Sword of Damocles should not hang over any serious settlement negotiations.

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G-Man said:

You seem to be avoiding the topic. How can anybody 'recognise' Israel when Israel itself refuses to identify what lands it covers?

Any recognition would then give it a free hand to say exactly what its borders are.

Why is Israel so unwilling to state the lands it believes it should encompass?

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G-Man said:

Roadmap for peace :-

Roadmap for Peace in the Middle East: Israeli/Palestinian Reciprocal Action, Quartet Support

"PHASE I:

Ending Terror and Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions


Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate end to all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere.
Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security with Israel, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians anywhere.
Palestinian institution-building includes drafting a constitution for Palestinian statehood and conducting free elections.
Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied since September 2000, as security progresses, freezes all settlement activity, and dismantles outposts. It takes measures to improve the Palestinian humanitarian situation."

Israel has never stopped its settlement activity so it would seem clear BOTH sides have failed to comply with the road map.

Israel has as little appetite for peace as Palestine I'm afraid.

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Volker said:

It is known for 2400 years at least, that asking good questions is a way to educate people. Socrates knew it.

The problem that I have with these FAQ's is, that they excuse terror as a natural reaction to terror and leave it this way.

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It does not make sense to answer questions of the form like "Did you know, that ...?", for instance.

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If the ratio is 3:1, why don't you try to find one instead?
The source you had was from April 26, this was 5 days after the shelling of Halisa and you said there was no violence in Haifa until then.

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Jenin talked about Oslo and roadmap, you picked roadmap to make a point, why adressing it?

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Jenin said:

Wrong. The Israeli government has NOT put an end to settlement expansion, ever. The largest growth of settlements occurred during the oslo process and during the roadmap. The Israelis DID NOT abide by the request for immediate halt of settlement expansion/construction. Also, Gaza IS occupied and you know this.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

This is a ridiculous statement, and you know it. I suppose it's the latest and, to date, worst attempt to blame the reason why Hamas hasn't recognized Israel. Because Israel hasn't identified it's borders? A statement that makes zero sense. Post a link that shows that Hamas' reason for not identifying Israel is because they don't know where Israel begins or ends. I think it's obvious that this has no bearing on Hamas' decision. Point is they refuse to recognize the Israeli government as an entity to administrate the area. Now show me how one can define borders in that.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

Read post #103 for clarification. Israel has removed all settlements from Gaza. What have the Palestinians done? Nada.

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G-Man said:

I suggest you read my earlier posts where I make it quite clear I blame both the Palestines and the Israelis for the problems in the ME....your pointless attack suggesting I attach no blame to Hamas is exactly that..pointless.

Quite simply I am asking the question as to what 'Israel' is and what is believes it should be. What is Israel asking the Palestines to recognize?

At the moment 'Israel' includes occupied land which under all international law belongs to Palestine. If it is asking for recognition that this land now belongs to Israel then should we be surprised Palestine does not recognize this Israel?

An agreement for peace without even discussing the final borders is completely pointless. If Palestinians 'recognize' Israel and then Israel says its borders include large portions of land which the Palestines thought would belong to them then this 'recognition' is a complete waste of time.

Instead of stalling for time can Israel not bring itself to say what borders it wants?

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G-Man said:

Removing settlements from one area and then building new settlements on other occupied lands does not constitute a 'freezing' of settlements I'm afraid.

It may be hard for you to admit but I'm afraid BOTH sides have disregarded the road map and neither has much appetite for peace.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

OK. I'll be happy to give you some decidedly pro-Israel sources.
Myths & Facts - The Refugees
Scroll to Myth #3
or this link give a great overview of the entire Palestinian Refugee issue The Palestinian Refugees
Here's another: Israel did not cause the Palestinian Arabs to leave
Try this one, and excellent historical account of what actually occurred in Haifa: The Review - Were the Palestinians expelled?
Another: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/refugees.html
One more; 8th quote: Arab Israeli Conflict Quotes
Lastly: Arab Refugees from Israel

Now I accept these sites as stating facts, however, I don't use these particular sites as citations because I see them as pro-Israel sites, and I'd prefer to argue facts then to argue bias...which is why I point it out so often.

Now in the past, Volker, I think it was you that pointed out the validity of posting information even from sites that are certainly positional. I have no problem with this, except it is easy to get off topic and start arguing 'your site's more biased then my site', a pointless argument. I find it better to back a potentially slanted site, with some primary sources, or more even-handed sources.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

My RoadMap comments have been directed at this statement:


I have adequately refuted this by using the RoadMap to identify Israeli requirements, my links to show evidence that Jenin is wrong, and RoadMap information to show that the Palestinians have done ZERO to comply with the RoadMap, whereas the Israelis have done something.

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Jenin said:

The largest growth of settlements occurred during the oslo process and during the roadmap.

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According to Israeli government statistics, just under 400,000 Israelis lived in territories captured during the 1967 war as of November 2000. Since the Oslo Accords 1993, the settlers' number on the West Bank (excluding East Jerusalem) has doubled, from 115,000 to 230,000.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

I certainly read all of your prior posts. I read your comments indicating that both parties have blame in the situation. Historically, in many posts on many threads, I adhere to this position. My issue is twofold, however. Like Jenin, you fail to acknowledge the Israeli dismantling of Gaza settlements as fullfillling one of the points of the RoadMap, so when you lump both Israel and the Palestinians together, equally, you state a slanted inaccuracy, as the Palestinians have fullfilled none of the points towards the RoadMap.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

My second issue is with the Israeli 'borders' premise you presented. The premise is non-sensical as there is no evidence that this has anything to do with Hamas' decision to not recognize Israel. As I said, Hamas refuses to acknowedge the existance of Israel in any state. The border issue is irrelevant. It also is nowhere mentioned in the RoadMap.

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Volker said:

There is nothing wrong with posting from sites who's authors pick as side.

Well, ok, if someone quotes WorldNetDaily, then one might ask if this is really worth to be debated

Hatered sides would be not ok.

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Jenin is not wrong here, actually he is right with what he said about the topic.



Israeli settlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Volker said:

I am not aware, that the dismantling of the Gaza settlements is a point of the roadmap.

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The border issue can be relevant for a long term ceasefire.

Hamas PM Haniyeh: Retreat to 1967 borders will bring peace

Actually, the Israeli side already presented a map about the borders the way they wanted it, this was when Mr. Arafat negotiated Barak and Clinton. The map presented there by the Israeli side was rejected by the Palestinian side for good reasons.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

Jenin is wrong when he says 'and the RoadMap'. I am not disputing the issue around Oslo. In fact, I have said numerous times that my issue with the Israeli government is the settlements...and you and I have actually debated each side of the issue against each other at one time or another. :2razz:. However, my argument and claims against Jenin's statement is aimed, narrowly at the words, above, in quotes. Even the website you posted confims that I am right.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

Sure it is. It is a portion of the Israeli part of Phase I.
Road map for peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
With the West Bank settlements still intact this has not been completed, but parts of Phase I have been accomplished.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

I have no problem with your presentation of this argument, and in actuallity this is part of Phase II. The way that G-man presented it was very different and irrelevant to the current situation. It was presented as why should Hamas recognize Israel if Israel won't identify it's borders. Obviously, as I have shown, this is not part of the sequence, and is just another way to spin this towards Israel making all the consiliatory efforts and the Palestinians making none.

Let me ask you, Volker (and anyone else who would like to answer). What efforts do you see the Palestinians making towards fullfilling any of the requirements in Phase I of the RoadMap for Peace?

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Phase I (as early as May 2003): End to Palestinian violence; Palestinian political reform; Israeli withdrawal and freeze on settlement expansion; Palestinian elections.

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Volker said:

No, the growth of settlements in the West Bank kept going during the roadmap, too, check the numbers. There were 226,852 inhabitants in 2003 and 267,163 inhabitants in 2006. If you look at the growth of the single settlements mentioned in the source, it is not very probable that a settlement grows like 40% in three years the natural way.

Population statistics for Israeli West Bank settlements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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CaptainCourtesy said:

I would agree that the building of settlements in the West Bank is against the RoadMap, and sends a poor message to the world. I think that Jerusalum is going to be such a sticky issue that it should be administered as the original Partition Plan had intended it to be: internationally.

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Volker said:

It was about freezing the expansion, not about dismantling the settlements.

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Lets see what the Palestinians had to do from your source.


Road map for peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They had three things to do.
End to Palestinian violence
Fatah declared a six-month truce and from what I know, they kept it. Hamas announced a ceasefire and from what I know, they kept it for many months until Israel attacked one of their leaders.

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Palestinian political reform
I don't know exactly, what is meant here, but we have seen a lot of developments in Palestine so far, which changed the political landscape.

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Palestinian elections
They took place and they met international standards.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

I stand corrected. I was looking at outdated information that focused on settlements. I was also including Gaza. You are correct, The population numbers have gone up, though the number of settlements have gone down (though there has been an increase in the size of the West Bank settlements. My postion has always been that this needs to cease. My issue is that there have been efforts made...not enough, but efforts nonetheless.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

Which was done in Gaza, as part of the requirement.



It's late, and I don't have time (or awakeness) to check information, but I'm fairly certain that Hamas/Fatah broke the ceasefire...don't remember when...I'll check, tomorrow.



I believe that this was meant to include reforms such as recognizing Israel and renouncing violence, which hasn't happened.



I agree, though when connected to point #2, they don't seem to have assisted in progressing towards peace.

My brain is starting to shut down (don't you hate when that happens)...so I will, too, for the night. :yawn:

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CaptainCourtesy said:

I certainly read all of your prior posts. I read your comments indicating that both parties have blame in the situation. Historically, in many posts on many threads, I adhere to this position. My issue is twofold, however. Like Jenin, you fail to acknowledge the Israeli dismantling of Gaza settlements as fullfillling one of the points of the RoadMap, so when you lump both Israel and the Palestinians together, equally, you state a slanted inaccuracy, as the Palestinians have fullfilled none of the points towards the RoadMap.

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'Palestinian institution-building includes drafting a constitution for Palestinian statehood and conducting free elections' - this was a roadmap requirement and seem to have been implemented but in all honesty it is clear both sides have breached the roadmap agreement.

The dismantling of the Gaza settlements was indeed a welcome development but to simply dismantle these ones and build new settlements in other occupied areas seem counter-productive to me. Its not really accomplishing anything and since the roadmap specifically said 'freezes all settlement activity' then I don't believe they have complied with this requirement.

Neither side has the appetite for upholding the roadmap at the moment I'm afraid.

My second issue is with the Israeli 'borders' premise you presented. The premise is non-sensical as there is no evidence that this has anything to do with Hamas' decision to not recognize Israel. As I said, Hamas refuses to acknowedge the existance of Israel in any state. The border issue is irrelevant. It also is nowhere mentioned in the RoadMap.

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Well I apologize for the way I presented this argument but the notion of a final peace settlement being achieved WITHOUT a discussion and agreement regarding borders is a non-starter in my opinion. If Israel outlines its plan then maybe Hamas agrees and maybe it doesn't but Hamas is NOT the Palestine people. There are many reasons why it won the last election (corruption and dissatisfaction with Fatah being the most prominent) but if Israel can present an acceptable compromise position (which clearly outlines future borders) then it is up to the Palestine population to accept or reject, not Hamas. Hamas is an extremist group which has gained support through the failing of past diplomatic efforts, a successfull diplomatic solution is probably (IMO) more likely to lead to its demise than an armed campaign.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

I would agree that the building of settlements in the West Bank is against the RoadMap, and sends a poor message to the world. I think that Jerusalum is going to be such a sticky issue that it should be administered as the original Partition Plan had intended it to be: internationally. Regardless, the Israeli government could certainly do more. My issue is that the Palestinian government has done nothing.

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Volker said:

End to Palestinian violence
Fatah declared a six-month truce and from what I know, they kept it. Hamas announced a ceasefire and from what I know, they kept it for many months until Israel attacked one of their leaders.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

What time frame are you talking about here?

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Volker said:

I am talking about the two last quarters of 2003. Hamas additionally had a 16 month formal ceasefire in 2005 and 2006, even though I am not sure if this ceasefire included Qassam rocket related activities.

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