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Are Palestinians descended from Hebrews?

German guy said:
Islam itself says as much, asfaik. Muslim opinion is that first the Jews perverted Moses' message, so God had to send Christ. Then, after a few centuries, Christians had perverted the message of Christ, so God had to send Mohammed -- to renew the faith, which essentially has always been the same faith in the eyes of the Muslims. Islam continues the long list of OT and NT prophets.

Considering this, I believe in its early days, Islam found quite a lot new followers among former Christians -- after all, Islam confirmed Christianity and Jesus. They just took it to the next level. (I don't want to get into the debate whether Mohammed was a false prophet or not -- I'm just explaining Muslim teaching as I understand it.)
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The rise of Christianity offered a new way of believing, and although the way was paved with much blood, the message of Christianity was one of forgiveness and redemption, rather than one of law. For those who believe that submission and law are the key to avoid eternal damnation, the need to dominate and control is strong. Those traits run strong in the human race, so it would be no surprise to me that a doctrine which says *live and let live* would be forcibly fought against.
 
lizzie said:
The rise of Christianity offered a new way of believing, and although the way was paved with much blood, the message of Christianity was one of forgiveness and redemption, rather than one of law. For those who believe that submission and law are the key to avoid eternal damnation, the need to dominate and control is strong. Those traits run strong in the human race, so it would be no surprise to me that a doctrine which says *live and let live* would be forcibly fought against.
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Well, or you believe that any religion is only valid for a certain period in time, depending on mankind's stage of development, and every few centuries, a new messenger will establish a new religion that's best suited for the new times -- an update, so to speak. ;)

Certainly Christianity has a precious and true message, but the point can be made (and is made) that this religion too was very often abused for control, domination and anything but "live and let live". Certainly for long periods in the history of Christianity, "live and let live" applied exclusively to other Christians at best, but not to "heathens".
 
lizzie said:
I have a personal suspicion (essentially unprovable, I'm sure), that the birth of Islam as a religion, was an act of rebellion against Christianity.
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lizzie , islam derived from christianity and judaism ,and it always accepts christ as a very important prophet of god.But when islam began to spread around arabia ,christianity didnt use to have a great influence in that region ,but judaism was dominant and some wars war made between jews and arabic tribes except wars among arabian tribes.and judaism was erased in arabia after these wars.
 
German guy said:
Certainly Christianity has a precious and true message, but the point can be made (and is made) that this religion too was very often abused for control, domination and anything but "live and let live". Certainly for long periods in the history of Christianity, "live and let live" applied exclusively to other Christians at best, but not to "heathens".
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No doubt, the birth of Christianity is paved with blood and violence, but the message itself is compatible with western democracy, and spread hand-in-hand with freedom. As much as many people like to decry Christianity as a religion, they point to old Judaic law for their supporting arguments, and not to the actual doctrinal beliefs themselves. The Jews were able to internalize their religion and make it personal, perhaps as a result of hundreds (thousands?) of years of persecution, or maybe it's just their exposure to the ideas, which resulted from their dispersing toward Europe, which have facilitated their progress toward democracy.
 
Medusa said:
lizzie , islam derived from christianity and judaism ,and it always accepts christ as a very important prophet of god.But when islam began to spread around arabia ,christianity didnt use to have a great influence in that region ,but judaism was dominant and some wars war made between jews and arabic tribes except wars among arabian tribes.and judaism was erased in arabia after these wars.
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I realize that, but the message of Christianity isn't to accept Jesus as a very important prohet of God, but to accept him as the son of God, and the key to salvation itself.
 
lizzie said:
I realize that, but the message of Christianity isn't to accept Jesus as a very important prohet of God, but to accept him as the son of God, and the key to salvation itself.
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yes I know ,but the humor of islam with regard to christianity is not to accept his being god.:lol:
 
Question: why is the title of the thread "Are the Palestinians descended from the Hebrews?", and not "Are the Palestinians descended from the Jews?

The natives of Palestine stopped being called "Hebrews", hundreds of years before the Roman invasion & exile. They didn't even speak Hebrew anymore, but Aramaic.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
You got that proposition backwards. And the answer is the Koran. And since you don't understand anything aboout Jewish teachings, I don't think we need to get into the "superiority" bunk.
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What does the Koran have to do with anything? You're right, IDK much about Jewish teachings. I don't have to to know that Judaism is a very exclusive religion. Jews are God's chosen people, and, by that rite, they naturally view themselves to be superior to others. That is, of course, why many other groups have felt threatened by them since the dawn of time. This isn't something non-Jews made up to fault Jews. It isn't a fault. It is in their belief system, and something that all others are well aware of. Christianity descended from Judaism; I know Judaism does not acknowledge the Bible as a valid text, but I've learned a lot about Jews and their relationships with others through the OT.

If anything I've said is false, please correct me other than to just say I'm wrong. Since Judaism is such an enclosed religion, it isn't something I'm very familiar with. I've picked up knowledge from studying general religious history sources, but what I stated above seems to be a very commonly shared belief about your faith, if it is not the truth.

Thunder, yes, Palestine's location makes it land that many want to possess. I'm not sure what that has to do with my post that you quoted? I don't have an opinion as to whom the land should go to. I just wish all groups could live there in peace.
 
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What I want to know is why Iran wants into the Israel/Palestine conflict. Arabs and Persians have never gotten along, historically. Only fairly recently, they have had peaceful relations in Iran, not really strong relations. It seems like Iran is backing off since the tough sanctions. Ahamdinejad is a big talker anyway - he's made several threats just in the past year, and never followed through. I wonder why Israel feels they are any danger. I don't think they truly do; they just don't want Iran to have nuclear power because it's a power struggle matter. Even with the biased U.S. media, it is clear that Iran is no danger. Ahmadinejad is no danger to anyone but his own people. Any action by Israel would be entirely pre-emptive - reckless and devastating to the world's fragile economy.
 
maiseycat said:
What does the Koran have to do with anything? You're right, IDK much about Jewish teachings. I don't have to to know that Judaism is a very exclusive religion. Jews are God's chosen people, and, by that rite, they naturally view themselves to be superior to others. That is, of course, why many other groups have felt threatened by them since the dawn of time. This isn't something non-Jews made up to fault Jews. It isn't a fault. It is in their belief system, and something that all others are well aware of. Christianity descended from Judaism; I know Judaism does not acknowledge the Bible as a valid text, but I've learned a lot about Jews and their relationships with others through the OT.....
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I'm sorry, but I find a lot of what you to say to be just a bit offensive. You appear to be blaiming the Jews for anti-Semitism.
 
maiseycat said:
What does the Koran have to do with anything? You're right, IDK much about Jewish teachings. I don't have to to know that Judaism is a very exclusive religion. Jews are God's chosen people, and, by that rite, they naturally view themselves to be superior to others. That is, of course, why many other groups have felt threatened by them since the dawn of time. This isn't something non-Jews made up to fault Jews. It isn't a fault. It is in their belief system, and something that all others are well aware of. Christianity descended from Judaism; I know Judaism does not acknowledge the Bible as a valid text, but I've learned a lot about Jews and their relationships with others through the OT.

If anything I've said is false, please correct me other than to just say I'm wrong. Since Judaism is such an enclosed religion, it isn't something I'm very familiar with. I've picked up knowledge from studying general religious history sources, but what I stated above seems to be a very commonly shared belief about your faith, if it is not the truth.

Thunder, yes, Palestine's location makes it land that many want to possess. I'm not sure what that has to do with my post that you quoted? I don't have an opinion as to whom the land should go to. I just wish all groups could live there in peace.
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What a bunch of ignorant, bigoted garbage.


You know nothing, but assume much.
 
Gardener said:
What a bunch of ignorant, bigoted garbage.


You know nothing, but assume much.
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What the.... Whatever. I've never encountered so many rude, attacking people as I have on this site. How you can get that from what I said is amazing. I was asking to LEARN more, admitting I didn't know much at all about Judaism, but these are things I picked up from religious research, and from Jewish people I've known. To say that people are threatened by your religion because it is so exclusive is not an insult in the least. Maybe people are curious about your religion, and how Jews interact with other groups in the ME, but they encounter people like you who are truly bigoted. I have to endure religious bigotry all the time, but I don't use it as an excuse to shell myself up and attack people who are genuinely curious and want to learn. I've tried to be open to learning more about Judaism, but, see, this is the typical response I get.

Your faith really needs to be a lot more welcoming and evangelical if it wants to thrive. I have Jewish ancestry on my mother's side. My grandfather's family is Jewish. I have attempted to learn more about my family tree and about my Jewish roots, but, in attempts to, I keep encountering pure nastiness from Jews who tell me I'm not a Jew and I can acknowledge my Jewish roots, but no more. I hesitate to research further because maybe I've just run into the wrong people, but my experiences with Jews lead me to believe the stereotypes are well-founded and being a part of this group in any fashion is something I'd rather keep in the archives.
 
Thunder said:
I'm sorry, but I find a lot of what you to say to be just a bit offensive. You appear to be blaiming the Jews for anti-Semitism.
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I don't at all. Like I wrote, which you didn't bold, it is no fault. It is true, I know several people who have regular dealings with Jewish people and are quite... wary of them, I guess you'd say, relaying the old stereotypes about Jews and business/money. I feel like I've taken in a lot of this without questioning, but experiences I've had with Jews, trying to learn more about my own Jewish roots, have not been positive experiences. I know that Jews face a lot of anti-semitism, but it's just really hard to have any reasonable discussions with Jews about anything religion-related. That is my experience, anyway. I'm not out to hurt anyone. I just get offended and weary over time, having the door slammed in my face. Even though I know it's wrong, I've learned to be really hesitant in my interactions with Jews because I don't want to get hurt. I've done soul-searching and come to the conclusion that it's not dislike, it's fear and feeling threatened from bad experiences.
 
maiseycat said:
What the.... Whatever. I've never encountered so many rude, attacking people as I have on this site. How you can get that from what I said is amazing. I was asking to LEARN more, admitting I didn't know much at all about Judaism, but these are things I picked up from religious research, and from Jewish people I've known. To say that people are threatened by your religion because it is so exclusive is not an insult in the least. Maybe people are curious about your religion, and how Jews interact with other groups in the ME, but they encounter people like you who are truly bigoted. I have to endure religious bigotry all the time, but I don't use it as an excuse to shell myself up and attack people who are genuinely curious and want to learn. I've tried to be open to learning more about Judaism, but, see, this is the typical response I get.

Your faith really needs to be a lot more welcoming and evangelical if it wants to thrive. I have Jewish ancestry on my mother's side. My grandfather's family is Jewish. I have attempted to learn more about my family tree and about my Jewish roots, but, in attempts to, I keep encountering pure nastiness from Jews who tell me I'm not a Jew and I can acknowledge my Jewish roots, but no more. I hesitate to research further because maybe I've just run into the wrong people, but my experiences with Jews lead me to believe the stereotypes are well-founded and being a part of this group in any fashion is something I'd rather keep in the archives.
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I am not Jewish.

Apparently, you are having experiences with non Jews that lead you to dislike Jews as well.
 
Gardener said:
I am not Jewish.

Apparently, you are having experiences with non Jews that lead you to dislike Jews as well.
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I don't dislike Jews. Now, I get it. You're obviously just a troll who goes around randomly intentionally mischaracterizing people's responses to provoke them. Troll on, troller... Oh, and, yes, some of my bad experiences may have been with anti-semites posed as Jewish people, like you may be. That's why I don't chose to hate a whole group of people based on the actions of individuals, like some people do.

I openly admit I have reservations in conversing with Jews on religious/political topics, and I have some stereotypical notions of Jews. It's something I'm working on. Not that I care what you think, as you're either a straight-up troll or an anti-semitic troll... You get this hostile reaction like you're all personally offended, then, go on to say you're not Jewish. Huh. Stop embarrassing yourself - go away!
 
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Alright, I read the first few pages of this thread, and this Gardener is definitely a troll. Making fun of the fact that only racial minorities can be considered victims of racism. White people are the socially dominant race therefore non-whites don't have the power to be racist against them. Someone needs a cultural communication class or two. Ironic, she's the one going around bullying people, calling them racists and labeling people's statements as "bigoted, ignorant garbage." There are so many trollish personalities on this site. It's too bad because it could have been a good place to talk politics. As it is, it's a breeding ground for straight-up nasty people.
 
My goodness. Not only am I a Jew, but a woman, now, too.

That is so cool.
 
maiseycat said:
I don't at all. Like I wrote, which you didn't bold, it is no fault. It is true, I know several people who have regular dealings with Jewish people and are quite... wary of them, I guess you'd say, relaying the old stereotypes about Jews and business/money. I feel like I've taken in a lot of this without questioning, but experiences I've had with Jews, trying to learn more about my own Jewish roots, have not been positive experiences. I know that Jews face a lot of anti-semitism, but it's just really hard to have any reasonable discussions with Jews about anything religion-related....
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are you aware of the fact that much of the Jewish connection with money was forced UPON us by Christians?

the Bible doesn't talk about us being all doctors, lawyers, and businessmen..does it? how do you think this happened? do you thik we CHOSE to be different than everyone else?

no, it was forced upon us by Christian anti-Semites in Europe, who wanted to keep us out of most trades, kept us from owning land to farm, and forced into financial roles within society.

there are millions of Jews in the USA, and if you've yet to find one that you can have a reasonable discussion with, I wonder what topics you are bringing up.
 
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maiseycat said:
...Your faith really needs to be a lot more welcoming and evangelical if it wants to thrive.....
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we would be doing just fine if non-Jews would leave us alone.

we don't create anti-Semitism. we didn't write the rules that set us apart. We just want to be left in peace to live our lives.
 
Thunder said:
we would be doing just fine if non-Jews would leave us alone.

we don't create anti-Semitism. we didn't write the rules that set us apart. We just want to be left in peace to live our lives.
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Interesting to know why you feel it is worth responding to these taunts. Wouldn't it be better to let him say whatever and eventually move on.
 
washunut said:
Interesting to know why you feel it is worth responding to these taunts. Wouldn't it be better to let him say whatever and eventually move on.
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the choice of whether to ignore or respond, is a tough one. But I see your point.
 
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maiseycat said:
What does the Koran have to do with anything? You're right, IDK much about Jewish teachings. I don't have to to know that Judaism is a very exclusive religion. Jews are God's chosen people, and, by that rite, they naturally view themselves to be superior to others. That is, of course, why many other groups have felt threatened by them since the dawn of time. This isn't something non-Jews made up to fault Jews. It isn't a fault. It is in their belief system, and something that all others are well aware of. Christianity descended from Judaism; I know Judaism does not acknowledge the Bible as a valid text, but I've learned a lot about Jews and their relationships with others through the OT.

If anything I've said is false, please correct me other than to just say I'm wrong. Since Judaism is such an enclosed religion, it isn't something I'm very familiar with. I've picked up knowledge from studying general religious history sources, but what I stated above seems to be a very commonly shared belief about your faith, if it is not the truth.

Thunder, yes, Palestine's location makes it land that many want to possess. I'm not sure what that has to do with my post that you quoted? I don't have an opinion as to whom the land should go to. I just wish all groups could live there in peace.
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In order to discuss Judaism, we would have to have a common frame of reference. Since it is obvious from your posts that you know nothing about the Jewish religion, we do not have one. Tell you what... educate yourself on it a bit and THEN we can certainly have a discussion... or, instead of posting ridiculous, biased, and inaccurate statement, ASK questions. There are some folks on this site who ARE Jewish, or know a lot about Judaism, myself included. I know that I am always happy to correct misrepresentations such as those that you post.
 
maiseycat said:
I don't dislike Jews. Now, I get it. You're obviously just a troll who goes around randomly intentionally mischaracterizing people's responses to provoke them. Troll on, troller... Oh, and, yes, some of my bad experiences may have been with anti-semites posed as Jewish people, like you may be. That's why I don't chose to hate a whole group of people based on the actions of individuals, like some people do.

I openly admit I have reservations in conversing with Jews on religious/political topics, and I have some stereotypical notions of Jews. It's something I'm working on. Not that I care what you think, as you're either a straight-up troll or an anti-semitic troll... You get this hostile reaction like you're all personally offended, then, go on to say you're not Jewish. Huh. Stop embarrassing yourself - go away!
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Tell you what then... since you openly admit that you have some stereotypical notions of Jews... and from what I see, these notions border on the anti-semetic, why don't you just stop talking about Jews and your "notions" and ask questions. Perhaps you will THEN actually learn something.
 
notquiteright said:
lpast-
I don't know about red heads being full blooded Eye-Taliens. I'll bet there is an Irishman in the woodpile somewhere! They do get around. ;)

Since Roman times there is a good historical record of other ethnic groups invading and settling in Italy. As far as I can tell Eye-talien isn't a race or much of an ethnic group until they tried to come to America... :)

Now doubt there is some germanic tribal blood in the mix, lots of Goths around, raping, pillaging and such. Germanic/Celtic soldiers served in the Legions and were slaves in Italy for a thousand years, give or take a century. I can imagine many a ginger haired slave girl being knocked up by her master or in a brothel.

I figure part of the problem is using a nation as an ethnic group. You are a nationality based on legal terms- place of birth, legal induction, parents home of record, laws of that particular nation.

I can be a blonde, blue eyed Mexican if I was born in Mexico, but a closer check of my family tree would show a French dude in there somewhere, (damn Frogs are almost as bad as those damn Irish, just be hopping and jumping on anything and everything :shock: )
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Thanks but I didnt need a lesson on mixed blood...Im aware romans had sex over most of the world and everyones blood is diluted...none of us a pedigreed were all mutts. Thats not what I was referring to...I was referring to you can be of generations of an ethnicity and still be a mutt with different colors....One more thing...Jewish is a religion made up of alot of ethnicities so the statement a jew can look like like an aryans...is very true there are GERMAN JEWS...and referring to them the way was kind of insulting
 
I dont know squat about judaism the religion and I never talk about it because I dont. I do talk about jews because Ive been around them my whole life and many a very "POOR JEW" my best friend all my life is a Poor Jew...and I refer to him when I answer the phone and its him...the same way hes referred to me for 50 yrs...Hey Guinney....Hey Jew how are you...heheh...weve been doing that for decades...now having said that...Im very much aware of just how much anti semetism is out there and its based on all IGNORNANT bs by clueless people..being a non jew..other non jews are comfortable expressing their view of jews around me...Ive heard all the myths about jews...every single one Id bet and the same can be applied to some of any religion or ethnicity....Why would you have a problem with a jew calling you a gentile...when you refer to them as jews...and you are a gentile, right ?
Heres the best thing to do...if you havent gone to synagogue your entire life and you havent taken hebrew class and had your bar mitzvah...why dont you just not talk about the jewish religion and just talk about yours, you will have a much better chance of not being wrong and looking foolish.
 
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