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Are Palestinians descended from Hebrews?

Ben K. said:
Are these Jews related to eachother? If they are, then the Kurds could be.
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I'm curious: based on what research and data, does the theory that the Palestinians are descenced from the ancient Jews come from?

who did the studies? which universities were involved? what was the size of the target group?
 
Jabrosky said:
Everyone calls Palestinians Arabs, but am I the only person who suspects that they're actually descended from Biblical Hebrews? People of many different ethnic backgrounds have converted to Islam and adopted the Arabic language and identity. You even have Black people in Sudan who identify as Arabs. For this reason, I think it likely that the so-called Palestinian "Arabs" are really Hebrews who switched religions and languages.

At any rate, Palestinians almost certainly look more like the Hebrews than lily-white European Jews.
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They don't descend from Jews; they're ethnic cousins, which is why I don't get why Jews hate them so much. It's not that Jews hate them, I think. Many Jews, though not all, feel they're a superior ethno-religious group in the Middle East, a chosen people of God, and that Israel was given to them by God. There is some truth to this, I feel, as a Christian, anyway (not the superiority part), Anyone other than a Jew is a Gentile, and, if you read the OT, Jews have rarely lived in peace with Gentiles.
 
maiseycat said:
..There is some truth to this, I feel, as a Christian, anyway (not the superiority part), Anyone other than a Jew is a Gentile, and, if you read the OT, Jews have rarely lived in peace with Gentiles.
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Palestine is the gateway to Africa, so clearly lots of armies & empires are gonna want to control that land.
 
maiseycat said:
They don't descend from Jews; they're ethnic cousins, which is why I don't get why Jews hate them so much. It's not that Jews hate them, I think. Many Jews, though not all, feel they're a superior ethno-religious group in the Middle East, a chosen people of God, and that Israel was given to them by God. There is some truth to this, I feel, as a Christian, anyway (not the superiority part), Anyone other than a Jew is a Gentile, and, if you read the OT, Jews have rarely lived in peace with Gentiles.
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yes ,I do not understand why arabs and jews dislike each other,but the religion makes them hate each other as bosnians and serbs...
 
Medusa said:
yes ,I do not understand why arabs and jews dislike each other,but the religion makes them hate each other as bosnians and serbs...
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I would have thought the past 100 years or so would have provided sufficient explanation. No people on earth would accept a group of immigrants with the express intention of overthrowing the established order to their own advantage.
 
Red_Dave said:
I would have thought the past 100 years or so would have provided sufficient explanation. No people on earth would accept a group of immigrants with the express intention of overthrowing the established order to their own advantage.
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but in terms of religious differences and verses about each other in holy books ,they really do not like themselves..settlement of jews in that region is not only problem in my opinion.
 
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Jabrosky said:
I've seen some European Jews who could pass for Hitler's Aryan ideal. One of them went to junior high with me.
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I have to say an unsarcastic so what here...theres italians with bright red hair and freckles and blonde hair and milky white skin both are uncharacteristic to italians but they are full blooded italian just the same.
 
Red_Dave said:
I would have thought the past 100 years or so would have provided sufficient explanation. No people on earth would accept a group of immigrants with the express intention of overthrowing the established order to their own advantage.
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The sad reality is that the people we now know as Palestinians haven't ruled themselves for a very long time. Following the Crusades, the region was under the control of first the Ayyubid Dynasty founded by Saladin, then the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt, the Ottoman Empire and finally the British Empire. So maybe you could say that they last ruled themselves back in the 13th, early 14th C but not since then until the present time.
 
Somerville said:
The sad reality is that the people we now know as Palestinians haven't ruled themselves for a very long time. Following the Crusades, the region was under the control of first the Ayyubid Dynasty founded by Saladin, then the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt, the Ottoman Empire and finally the British Empire. So maybe you could say that they last ruled themselves back in the 13th, early 14th C but not since then until the present time.
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And having fought a war to rule themselves during the Arab Revolt they found themselves deprived of the opportunity to do so but i dont see your point.
 
Thunder-
I am bad at posting links, but Google is full of sites with the DNA linkage.

DNA doesn't lie, yes people have conquered/ransacked/occupied/interbred with the Chosen People on the lands Gawd 'gave 'em' so many times it is difficult for one of the not so chosen to figure out just what being Chosen by your Gawd means. It doesn't seem to have gotten them a shining city on a hill. Not said out of any hate, hard to hate a people so spat and trod upon, just a sense of wonderment over how so unfortunate a people can have such hate for others, especially when genetically they are so similar.

Might give credence to an old saying, 'There is no fight like a family fight!'
 
Thunder said:
there are Jews all over the world, are you saying that Kurds are relatives of ALL of these Jews?

they are related to the Spaniards who have Jewish blood from the time of the Inquisition? They are related to the Lemba Jews?

they are related to the Cochin Jews? the Jews of Tunisia & Italy?
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I remember reading about a study by Ariella Oppenheim which shows Sepharadi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews share common characteristics of the Y-DNA, and that its close to the Kurdish-Turkish DNA.

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East
 
ido_ said:
I remember reading about a study by Ariella Oppenheim which shows Sepharadi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews share common characteristics of the Y-DNA, and that its close to the Kurdish-Turkish DNA.

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East
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it is attractive to hypothesize that Ashkenazim with Eu 19 chromosomes represent descendents of the Khazars, originally a Turkic tribe from Central Asia, who settled in southern Russia and eastern Ukraine and converted en masse to Judaism in the ninth century of the present era, as described by Yehuda Ha-Levi in 1140 a.d.

if there are this kind of scientific findings ,it is easier for me to believe einstein was turkish:mrgreen:

in fact I hesitated to accept this hypothesis but it seems true.
 
Medusa said:
it is attractive to hypothesize that Ashkenazim with Eu 19 chromosomes represent descendents of the Khazars, originally a Turkic tribe from Central Asia, who settled in southern Russia and eastern Ukraine and converted en masse to Judaism in the ninth century of the present era, as described by Yehuda Ha-Levi in 1140 a.d.

if there are this kind of scientific findings ,it is easier for me to believe einstein was turkish:mrgreen:

in fact I hesitated to accept this hypothesis but it seems true.
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The article talks about origins from Mesopotamia not central Asia.
 
ido_ said:
The article talks about origins from Mesopotamia not central Asia.
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but you see the passage above.it claims askhenazis descended from khazarian turks
 
maiseycat said:
They don't descend from Jews; they're ethnic cousins, which is why I don't get why Jews hate them so much. It's not that Jews hate them, I think. Many Jews, though not all, feel they're a superior ethno-religious group in the Middle East, a chosen people of God, and that Israel was given to them by God. There is some truth to this, I feel, as a Christian, anyway (not the superiority part), Anyone other than a Jew is a Gentile, and, if you read the OT, Jews have rarely lived in peace with Gentiles.
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You got that proposition backwards. And the answer is the Koran. And since you don't understand anything aboout Jewish teachings, I don't think we need to get into the "superiority" bunk.
 
lpast-
I don't know about red heads being full blooded Eye-Taliens. I'll bet there is an Irishman in the woodpile somewhere! They do get around. ;)

Since Roman times there is a good historical record of other ethnic groups invading and settling in Italy. As far as I can tell Eye-talien isn't a race or much of an ethnic group until they tried to come to America... :)

Now doubt there is some germanic tribal blood in the mix, lots of Goths around, raping, pillaging and such. Germanic/Celtic soldiers served in the Legions and were slaves in Italy for a thousand years, give or take a century. I can imagine many a ginger haired slave girl being knocked up by her master or in a brothel.

I figure part of the problem is using a nation as an ethnic group. You are a nationality based on legal terms- place of birth, legal induction, parents home of record, laws of that particular nation.

I can be a blonde, blue eyed Mexican if I was born in Mexico, but a closer check of my family tree would show a French dude in there somewhere, (damn Frogs are almost as bad as those damn Irish, just be hopping and jumping on anything and everything :shock: )
 
Since populations of people tend to be at least reasonably stable in terms to the land they inhabit, it shouldn't be any wonder that the people who have recently begun calling themselves "Palestinian" can trace their lineage through blood. Jewish people can do the same, of course. I would say that rather than a case of these new people called "Palestinian" being descended from Hebrews so much as it is the Palestinians and Hebrews having a shared ancestry to the Canaanites.

THe real issue here is one of culture rather than blood, since the people who now call themselves "Palestinian" are Arab culturally. Before Zionism they did not refer to themselves as Palestinian, and so any discussion of the issue needs to be understood of that as between Arabs and Jews. These particular Arabs share a similar ancestry with Jews, but their cultural affinity is to the much larger Arab world, which is vast in terms of land and resources.
 
Gardener said:
THe real issue here is one of culture rather than blood, since the people who now call themselves "Palestinian" are Arab culturally. Before Zionism they did not refer to themselves as Palestinian, and so any discussion of the issue needs to be understood of that as between Arabs and Jews. These particular Arabs share a similar ancestry with Jews, but their cultural affinity is to the much larger Arab world, which is vast in terms of land and resources.
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Based on a couple of scholarly pieces I've read on the subject, the "Palestinians", at the time of the establishment of Israel, were largely nomadic simple villagers, and didn't generally identify with any religion in particular.
 
Gardener said:
Since populations of people tend to be at least reasonably stable in terms to the land they inhabit, it shouldn't be any wonder that the people who have recently begun calling themselves "Palestinian" can trace their lineage through blood. Jewish people can do the same, of course. I would say that rather than a case of these new people called "Palestinian" being descended from Hebrews so much as it is the Palestinians and Hebrews having a shared ancestry to the Canaanites.

THe real issue here is one of culture rather than blood, since the people who now call themselves "Palestinian" are Arab culturally. Before Zionism they did not refer to themselves as Palestinian, and so any discussion of the issue needs to be understood of that as between Arabs and Jews. These particular Arabs share a similar ancestry with Jews, but their cultural affinity is to the much larger Arab world, which is vast in terms of land and resources.
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If we intend to understand it from a cultural perspective as opposed to a genetic one, most Arabs consider themselves sons of Abraham via Ishmael whether it's true or not. Indeed, many Jewish theologeons think the same thing. "Palestinian" is an irrelevancy.
 
A while back I read that genetic examinations have shown that even traits of the European crusaders are prevalent among many people in the region, especially in Lebanon, where 40% of the people or so have European ancestors.

And most people who are called "Arab" today are descendants from former Christians (North Africa and much of the Middle East was part of the Roman Empire, and later the Bycantine Empire) who were later converted to Islam and "Arabized". Think of Egypt -- they speak Arabic today and are called "Arabs", but most of them stem from ancient Egypts who once were "heathens" or Christians.

So I'm sure that like in Europe, there was a lot of mixing in the Middle East. That makes defining heritage a bit complicated.
 
German guy said:
And most people who are called "Arab" today are descendants from former Christians (North Africa and much of the Middle East was part of the Roman Empire, and later the Bycantine Empire) who were later converted to Islam and "Arabized". Think of Egypt -- they speak Arabic today and are called "Arabs", but most of them stem from ancient Egypts who once were "heathens" or Christians.
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I have a personal suspicion (essentially unprovable, I'm sure), that the birth of Islam as a religion, was an act of rebellion against Christianity.
 
lizzie said:
I have a personal suspicion (essentially unprovable, I'm sure), that the birth of Islam as a religion, was an act of rebellion against Christianity.
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and you would be wrong. If the creation of Islam was a "rebellion", it was against paganism

Pagan Origins of Islam
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Masud: The Prophet entered Mecca and (at that time) there were three hundred-and-sixty idols around the Ka’aba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished."
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Ben K. said:
I'm aware there was a quite a bit of reactionary Jewish proselytisation when Christianity arrived, but a fifth of the population? You got a link?
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Unfortunately, I cannot find where I saw that at this moment. However, this gives some good information:

Salo Baron, in his monumental A Social and Religious History of the Jews, points out that the Jews - comprising as many as 10 percent of the Western Roman empire and 20 percent of the Eastern Roman empire - were seen by Rome as a threat to the unity of the Roman empire, whose universal culture was Greek, not Jewish.
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Source: The Jewish Chronicle

So far I am not finding a source that touches on the Jewish population of Rome itself past the first century.

Thunder said:
there is no evidence of that.

may Jews were sold as slaves after the Roman destruction of Judea, and many more chose to move into the rest of the Roman empire. there is simply no evidence that the Palestinians retain significant Jewish heritage.
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Actually, the bulk of Jews living there at the time of the Roman invasion probably did not leave. The evidence of Palestinians having Jewish heritage has been attested to in numerous genetic studies. When the Arabs went into Palestine it wasn't a colonization of North America scenario, more a colonization of Middle America scenario.

Gardener said:
I would say that rather than a case of these new people called "Palestinian" being descended from Hebrews so much as it is the Palestinians and Hebrews having a shared ancestry to the Canaanites.
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Well, the Hebrews would have heavily intermixed with the Canaanites so even then it would mean descent from the Hebrews.
 
lizzie said:
I have a personal suspicion (essentially unprovable, I'm sure), that the birth of Islam as a religion, was an act of rebellion against Christianity.
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Islam itself says as much, asfaik. Muslim opinion is that first the Jews perverted Moses' message, so God had to send Christ. Then, after a few centuries, Christians had perverted the message of Christ, so God had to send Mohammed -- to renew the faith, which essentially has always been the same faith in the eyes of the Muslims. Islam continues the long list of OT and NT prophets.

Considering this, I believe in its early days, Islam found quite a lot new followers among former Christians -- after all, Islam confirmed Christianity and Jesus. They just took it to the next level. (I don't want to get into the debate whether Mohammed was a false prophet or not -- I'm just explaining Muslim teaching as I understand it.)
 
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