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Israel does not want a Palestinian state. Period.

Baltim said:
Also, be careful using this argument. Remember just how many Israeli Prime Ministers have been former terrorists.
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2 out of 12 and were ellected ~30 years after Israel was founded, one of them even spent some time in Israeli prison.
 
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Demon of Light said:
I must say, this part of the article made me appreciate the irony of Israel objecting to a U.N.-imposed independence measure as being "unilateral" when its very existence is based on taking unilateral action that it justified by pointing to a U.N. measure on independence.
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No not quite. You forgot the preceding incident. Interesting how you ignore the parts of history that don't suit you.

As you are well aware the UN failed to convince the Arab League of nations to accept two states side by side, one Jewish one Arab.

As you are also aware, the Arab League of Nations then declared it would never accept a Jewish state after the Zionists stated they would accept the state
assigned to them by the UN which was less than 6% of what was originally mandated to them by the League of Nations.

In fact the Arab world was able to force 94% of the land mandated for a Jewish nation away from Zionists but then stated it would never under any circumstance
accept any kind of Jewish state no matter how small it was and indicated it would drive the Jews out of Palestine forcefully.

That of course you conveniently skip or the fact Israel only declared itself a nation when it was abandoned by the UN and the Arab League of Nations indicated they would commit extermination of the Jews in the Middle East.

So to compare it to the current state on the West Bank is absurd but I expect that from you.

The current Palestinians on the West Bank and in Gaza do not have a state not because Israel like the Arab League of Nations won't recognize it or has indicated it will wipe them all out.

Unlike the Arab League in regards to Israel, Israel has repeatedly recognized the right to a Palestinian state. To this date the Arab League of Nations will not recognize Israel and the only veiled reference to considering recognition is the condition that Israel agree to take back in, on an unlimited basis anyone who wants to call themselves a Palestinian which would in effect mean, dismantling the Jewish state and flooding it with non Israeli Palestinians.

So stop with the false analogies. Israel time and time again offered to recognize Palestine. Each time it did, it was made a fool of culminating in the final mockery of Arafat telling the world he strung along Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton and the whole world should have known he would never settle for a Palestinian state unless all of Israel and Jordan was returned to him.

That you forget of course.

You also forget of course that Hamas has a constitution and has openly declared it will never stop engaging in war and terrorism until Israel is seized. So says Hezbollah, Iran and countless terror cells operating in Gaza, Syria, Egypt, Sundan, Yemen, Lebanon, and Iran. Oh but let's forget that right?

Let's forget that in Mr. Abbas' own party, he has no control and Fatah Hawks who have vowed to wipe out Israel remain steadfast in their agenda.

But let's just ignore all that.

Let's just ignore the fact that Mr. Abbas wants to declare unilteral statehood because he feels Israel is unreasonable in not conceding that Palestinians should be able to return to Israel and dismantle it. Israel is unreasonable because Mr. Abbas can't control terrorists or extremists and guarantee any peace if Israel were to withdraw to 1967 borders.

Israel is unreasonable because it won't concede holy ground of Christians and Jews to sole Muslim control in Jerusalem.

Israel is unreasonable because it thinks it has the right to safe defensible borders.

Yah heard it all.

I will say it again. Abbas is a spent carcass. No one in Palestinian society thinks of him as anything but that. He has zero control over the majority of Palestinians or his own party let alone Hamas and all the terror cells.

He's a spent figure head playing his last ultimatum card as all the others have run out. His threats to resign like the boy crying wolf no longer work and his surrounding himself with Arafat's corupt cronies who openly stated they bargained in bad faith speaks for itself.

The Western media created Abbas because they can't get sound bites from Hamas to their liking. Muslim fundamentalists with beards shouting death to Israel don't make for good 10 second sound bites on the evening news.

An old fat baige man with glasses in a suit comes across more palatable. Oops he is a moderate because he wears a suit and has no beard. Right. This from a man who wrote his thesis denying the holocaust happened. A real academic moderate.

Bottom line-Israel should have not allowed itself to be played and instead of taking the bait should have kept the freeze going. By ending it they gave Abbas what he wanted-the excuse not to negotiate.

I say temporarily reinstate the freeze and take Abbas card away from him.

Then let the UN, EU, and everyone else explain how they will disarm Hamas and other terrorists as the IRA were before peace talks could happen there.

Spit back this two faced b.s. I say.

For me Palestinians should have a nation on the West Bank and Gaza and this can not happen as long as terrorists have a monopoly on its political representation and who vow to wipe out Israel.
 
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Edit* meh

56789
 
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ido_ said:
2 out of 12 and were ellected ~30 years after Israel was founded, one of them even spent some time in Israeli prison.
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That depends whether you count David Ben Gurion as a terrorists or not.

As the man who green lighted the King David Hotel bombing, personally he fits my view of what a terrorist is.
 
Mika-El said:
No not quite. You forgot the preceding incident. Interesting how you ignore the parts of history that don't suit you.

As you are well aware the UN failed to convince the Arab League of nations to accept two states side by side, one Jewish one Arab.

As you are also aware, the Arab League of Nations then declared it would never accept a Jewish state after the Zionists stated they would accept the state
assigned to them by the UN which was less than 6% of what was originally mandated to them by the League of Nations.

In fact the Arab world was able to force 94% of the land mandated for a Jewish nation away from Zionists but then stated it would never under any circumstance
accept any kind of Jewish state no matter how small it was and indicated it would drive the Jews out of Palestine forcefully.

That of course you conveniently skip or the fact Israel only declared itself a nation when it was abandoned by the UN and the Arab League of Nations indicated they would commit extermination of the Jews in the Middle East.

So to compare it to the current state on the West Bank is absurd but I expect that from you.

The current Palestinians on the West Bank and in Gaza do not have a state not because Israel like the Arab League of Nations won't recognize it or has indicated it will wipe them all out.

Unlike the Arab League in regards to Israel, Israel has repeatedly recognized the right to a Palestinian state. To this date the Arab League of Nations will not recognize Israel and the only veiled reference to considering recognition is the condition that Israel agree to take back in, on an unlimited basis anyone who wants to call themselves a Palestinian which would in effect mean, dismantling the Jewish state and flooding it with non Israeli Palestinians.

So stop with the false analogies. Israel time and time again offered to recognize Palestine. Each time it did, it was made a fool of culminating in the final mockery of Arafat telling the world he strung along Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton and the whole world should have known he would never settle for a Palestinian state unless all of Israel and Jordan was returned to him.

That you forget of course.

You also forget of course that Hamas has a constitution and has openly declared it will never stop engaging in war and terrorism until Israel is seized. So says Hezbollah, Iran and countless terror cells operating in Gaza, Syria, Egypt, Sundan, Yemen, Lebanon, and Iran. Oh but let's forget that right?

Let's forget that in Mr. Abbas' own party, he has no control and Fatah Hawks who have vowed to wipe out Israel remain steadfast in their agenda.

But let's just ignore all that.

Let's just ignore the fact that Mr. Abbas wants to declare unilteral statehood because he feels Israel is unreasonable in not conceding that Palestinians should be able to return to Israel and dismantle it. Israel is unreasonable because Mr. Abbas can't control terrorists or extremists and guarantee any peace if Israel were to withdraw to 1967 borders.

Israel is unreasonable because it won't concede holy ground of Christians and Jews to sole Muslim control in Jerusalem.

Israel is unreasonable because it thinks it has the right to safe defensible borders.

Yah heard it all.

I will say it again. Abbas is a spent carcass. No one in Palestinian society thinks of him as anything but that. He has zero control over the majority of Palestinians or his own party let alone Hamas and all the terror cells.

He's a spent figure head playing his last ultimatum card as all the others have run out. His threats to resign like the boy crying wolf no longer work and his surrounding himself with Arafat's corupt cronies who openly stated they bargained in bad faith speaks for itself.

The Western media created Abbas because they can't get sound bites from Hamas to their liking. Muslim fundamentalists with beards shouting death to Israel don't make for good 10 second sound bites on the evening news.

An old fat baige man with glasses in a suit comes across more palatable. Oops he is a moderate because he wears a suit and has no beard. Right. This from a man who wrote his thesis denying the holocaust happened. A real academic moderate.

Bottom line-Israel should have not allowed itself to be played and instead of taking the bait should have kept the freeze going. By ending it they gave Abbas what he wanted-the excuse not to negotiate.

I say temporarily reinstate the freeze and take Abbas card away from him.

Then let the UN, EU, and everyone else explain how they will disarm Hamas and other terrorists as the IRA were before peace talks could happen there.

Spit back this two faced b.s. I say.

For me Palestinians should have a nation on the West Bank and Gaza and this can not happen as long as terrorists have a monopoly on its political representation and who vow to wipe out Israel.
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as you can see, i have emphasized your characterization of abbas
not because i disagree with all of your points ... in many instances our views, that abbas as not a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, dovetail

but i point this out because you omitted the reality that it was abbas who the israelis trotted out - with the USA - to "negotiate" with israel

when you and other israelis thought abbas could be counted on to sell out the Palestinian interests, he became your named representative to participate in "peace" talks

now that he is no longer showing an inclination to sell out the Palestinians in a sham "negotiation" - likely because he eventually came to understand from hamas what personal cost would result if he did - you and other isrealis heap scorn on him and find him "spent"
 
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Gardener said:
I never said you advocated Israel's destruction. You just seem to have no clue as to the political territory inhabited by Gideon Levy and Gilad Atzmon, both of whom are extreme leftist antizionists and extremely hostile to Israel. With Atzmon in particular, your asking us to consider his views strikes me much in the same way as it would if a person quoted an article by David Duke in regards to race relations here in the states as some sort of counter point to, say, an article by Pat Buchanan.

Perhaps you are just so far left that you cannot even see where the middle is, but all you have done here is to choose somebody even further out there to counter an extremist rather than choose any sort of sensible person to consider.
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Well, on the issue, I'm of a few minds on this Palestinian initiative. While it certainly has confirmed my view that the Palestinians have NEVER been interested in any sort of peace agreement that would curtail its ability to continue its destructionist war against Israel, I don't really see this as a win for the Palestinians.

One approach I have not fully thought through but kind of like would be that following the vote, Israel put through two Acts -

- one annexing territories it decides it wants to keep, as per its national interest but in line with directives of the Supreme Court on defensive boundaries for the security barrier and would retain such additional territory in the Jordan valley as required to maintain protection and

- one officially recognize the independent Palestinian state on the remaining territories. This would be accompanied by an end of all interim coordination and cooperation, including with respect to tax collection, customs and everythign else.

The main issue I see here is on the security front, but the blockade can be continued in Gaza, and the Palestinians in the WB should be put on notice that just as it was legal for the US to blockade Cuba, Israel would not hesitate to blocade the west bank should the Palestinians move to import heavy weaponry or sign defense-related alliance agreements with states officially at war with Israel.

Like I said, I haven't thought this through, but it almost seems critical to shift the frame of reference in this whole conflict to one which effectively highlights the general Palestinian douchebaggery at play and the true objectives they are pursuing. It also will allow Israel to maintain defensive territories that might not be available in a negotiated resolution (and any such "negotiated resolution" would, in any event, not do anything to actually end the conflict given Palestinian objectives and aforementioned doucchebaggery.

Thoughts?
 
gunner said:
Gardener said:
No matter the copious amount of times you repeat this prejudicial line, it will not give it any more verisimilitude.

Paul
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You're right, of course. It's not his repetition that creates this verisimilitude. It is perfectly verisimilitudinous its own accord. In other words, as it were, it is the general truthiness of the statement that imbues in it the essence of verisimilitude.

:golf
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CaptainCourtesy said:
Very dishonest post. The article is an opinion piece from someone who doesn't show any information or data that the title of his article is accurate.
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The Israeli President, the representative of the Israeli people, is on a mission to meet the world's leaders in order to try his best to stop a Palestinian state from being created.

Netanyahu to meet world leaders in bid to thwart Palestinian statehood

Netanyahu to meet world leaders in bid to thwart Palestinian statehood - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
:doh :confused: :roll: :shock:
 
justabubba said:
as you can see, i have emphasized your characterization of abbas
not because i disagree with all of your points ... in many instances our views, that abbas as not a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, dovetail

but i point this out because you omitted the reality that it was abbas who the israelis trotted out - with the USA - to "negotiate" with israel

when you and other israelis thought abbas could be counted on to sell out the Palestinian interests, he became your named representative to participate in "peace" talks

now that he is no longer showing an inclination to sell out the Palestinians in a sham "negotiation" - likely because he eventually came to understand from hamas what personal cost would result if he did - you and other isrealis heap scorn on him and find him "spent"
Click to expand...

Lol that's a nice spin Abbas as stooge of Zionists who sees the light given to him by Hamas. Right.
 
24107 said:
The Israeli President, the representative of the Israeli people, is on a mission to meet the world's leaders in order to try his best to stop a Palestinian state from being created.

Netanyahu to meet world leaders in bid to thwart Palestinian statehood

Netanyahu to meet world leaders in bid to thwart Palestinian statehood - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
:doh :confused: :roll: :shock:
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Yah that's right. He is a big Zionist bad guy fat head who picks on Palestinians for no reason. That as we can seesummarizes your complex analysis of his position. Thanks for that reminder. I forgot what a poo head Netanyahu is.
 
Mika-El said:
Lol that's a nice spin Abbas as stooge of Zionists who sees the light given to him by Hamas. Right.
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delighted you are now able to acknowledge that reality
 
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