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Thread: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

  1. #171
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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Like maybe terminated? They aren't allies by any definition of the word.
    You have no idea what you are talking about. Turkey has been one of the most useful allies the U.S. has ever made. In the past, they let us build a major air base on their soil, host secret missile sites against the USSR, and gave us support during the Gulf War. Today, they are aligned with us in the "war on terror" and provide absolutely crucial supply routes into Iraq. This whole escort situation is likely nothing more than flag waving that will have no real consequences. Unless they truly cross the line, it would be foolish to abandon them.

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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Thank you for proving that, despite constantly accusing me of loving dictators, that you actually are the one who hates democracy. Suggesting that I must be against the welfare of all human beings living in a given territory because most of them chose a government you do not like says a great deal about you and not anything good.
    I don't hate democracy... I support the right of israel (also a democracy) the right to defend itself against a government that is at war with it.
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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    You have no idea what you are talking about. Turkey has been one of the most useful allies the U.S. has ever made. In the past, they let us build a major air base on their soil, host secret missile sites against the USSR, and gave us support during the Gulf War. Today, they are aligned with us in the "war on terror" and provide absolutely crucial supply routes into Iraq. This whole escort situation is likely nothing more than flag waving that will have no real consequences. Unless they truly cross the line, it would be foolish to abandon them.
    Turkey was an ally when the United States had a strong hold on the political system of the country, but the pro-American deep state has been mostly cleaned out and the AKP's success at being able to thwart Kemalist machinations against them seriously challenges the ability of the U.S. to use the military to reorient Turkey away from this turn towards the East. Not to mention the attitudes of the military have changed to where even they can no longer be considered a reliable tool for the United States to exert control over the country. Overall the establishment in Turkey has made a general shift away from the West as a consequence of numerous policies including support for the Kurds and Islamophobic obstruction of Turkey's efforts to join the EU. The West's insistence, under American tutelage, on supporting the Greek Cypriot government and pushing pointless measures to recognize the Armenian Genocide has certainly not helped either.

    Many points of friction exist with Turkey and have only been further aggravated by events like the War in Iraq and the flotilla incident last year. Given that Turkey actively collaborates with the military forces of Syria and Iran with regards to the Kurds and pursues closer economic and political integration with them at the expense of relations with the United States I see no reason to believe they will do anything but grow more distant.

    Like I said, NATO is not an organization I think should be around, but as long as it is I think any country that is strategically aligning itself with other countries militarily opposed to NATO should have the its continued membership re-evaluated. The last thing I want to see is some situation emerge where Turkey invokes article 5 against Israel and the U.S. is put in the legal position where it has to assist Turkey in a war against Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I don't hate democracy... I support the aim of israel (also a democracy) the right to defend itself against a government that is at war with it.
    Don't change your story. The implication of your comments seems to be that the people of Gaza in general are legitimate targets for the imposition of suffering just because some of them voted for Hamas. In essence, because some of them voted for a specific party that you do not like Israel is free to engage in campaigns calculated to cause severe suffering in the general population. Such a position can only be interpreted as a lack of love for the system of democracy, even if you constantly claim to support it. How else should one interpret your suggestion that when people make choices you deem wrong that it is acceptable to make them suffer?
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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    This was why our founding fathers warned us about foreign alliances, those who we wish to ally with we also inherit their enemies. Having allies is really only achievable when two or more countries share a common interest and in Turkey's case that was self preservation from the threat of the Soviet machine, now that this is really no longer a threat Turkey no longer needs the U.S. or NATO etc. This also is the same with the U.S. we no longer need Turkey as a ally as well, and that said we no longer need to support Turkey nor have bases in Turkey.

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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    This article prior to Mullah Erdogan's pronouncements this week

    Turkey's need for Israel's UAVs may unite once close allies
    Ankara censures Israel for its attacks on Gaza, but does not hesitate to bomb the Kurdish PKK movement in much the same manner.
    By Zvi Bar'el // 8/30/11 // Ha'aretz


    Iraqi Kurds marching to protest a bombing run by Turkish warplanes that killed 7.

    Turkey's patience in the face of frequent attacks by the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK ) ended last week, when it began a war targeted at areas with high concentrations of members of the movement, which is defined as a terrorist organization. On Thursday the Turkish army announced that it had killed 100 PKK members in areas along the Iraqi border and inside Iraq as well, a week after the PKK killed eight Turkish soldiers.

    Turkey censured Israel for its activities in Gaza, but operates in a similar manner against the PKK: It penetrates Iraq's air space and bombs villages or sites suspected of housing PKK members, causing the deaths of innocent people, including women and children. And like Israeli diplomats, Turkey's ambassador was summoned to a reprimand: the Iraqi foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, demanded of the ambassador that his country cease its military activities on Iraqi soil immediately. Members of the Iraqi Kurdistan Parliament added the demand for an apology for Turkey's attacks in its country to this Reprimand.
    It appears that Ankara, which brought the term "apology" to the forefront of the new diplomatic discourse, will have to deal with this itself now.
    According to Turkish sources, in this campaign the Turkish army is using unmanned aerial vehicles acquired from Israel, to which Turkish-made cameras are attached. It turns out that the amount of UAV's in Turkey's hands is insufficient, and it is seeking to purchase more, along with other military equipment, for immediate delivery. Turkey's policy until now has been to acquire Turkish-made equipment or that produced in cooperation with other countries; however, in light of the increasing attacks of the Kurdish movement and the decision to focus a military effort on it, Turkey has decided to make immediate purchases.
    [..........]
    The war against the PKK has been going on for a long time. Since 1984, more than 40,000 people have been killed.
    [......]
    and then Turkeys' primero Islamist has the nerve...
    Erdoan accuses Israel of withholding UAVs - Globes
    The Turkish Prime Minister said that unmanned aerial vehicles sent to Israel for maintenance had not been returned.
    8 September 11
    Sure! Israel should send him more UAV's to use to gather intelligence on the Israeli Navy during the next flotilla.
    Perhaps that's why Mullah Erdogan said he was Misunderstood/misquoted this week.
    He needs his Toys.
    Last edited by mbig; 09-12-11 at 01:01 AM.
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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Don't change your story. The implication of your comments seems to be that the people of Gaza in general are legitimate targets for the imposition of suffering just because some of them voted for Hamas. In essence, because some of them voted for a specific party that you do not like Israel is free to engage in campaigns calculated to cause severe suffering in the general population. Such a position can only be interpreted as a lack of love for the system of democracy, even if you constantly claim to support it. How else should one interpret your suggestion that when people make choices you deem wrong that it is acceptable to make them suffer?
    Not changing my story at all. War sucks. The winners of the legislative elections (who then proceded to take administrative power illegally) have engaged in hostilities against Israel. While civilians should not be targeted to the extent possible, it is inevitable that in such a situation, civilians will suffer. If they want to improve their situation, they can stop commiting acts of war against Israel.
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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    That WOULD be what those you call anti-Israel are and have been objecting to. That Israel doesn't giva a **** what anybody else thinks.
    Yes, because when it comes to preserving Israel, Israel does what IT thinks is necessary....not that others think.
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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    The nation state of Turkey has every right to protect vessals flying its flag by means of its navy. Particularly if they are not engaged in illegal behaviour.

    In order to be considered to be deliberately running the Israeli imposed 'blockade' (more of which later,) the vessals will have to have announced the intention of carrying contraband materials (arms and munitions) to Gaza, and to in fact be carrying such materials.

    The Mavi Marmara was demonstrably not doing so. And any future such aid convoys will also doubtless be proven not to do so. The vessals are independently inspected for this purpose.

    The San Remo Manual has been quoted in defence of the Israeli actions on the Mavi Marmara. What apologists for the Zionists conveniently omit to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade". The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.

    There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms. The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse. The UN's Goldstone Report found that blockade may even amount to international crimes: "Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country… could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed."

    So a blockade against anything except arms and munitions would, in effect, be illegal under the terms of that document. The attempts by Israel to impose an essentially illegal blockade outside their territorial waters, should be questioned by anyone who values ethical behaviour and the rule of law. That elements of Hamas are acting illegally in sending rockets into Israeli territory, does not alter the legal status of the blockade.
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  9. #179
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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    The nation state of Turkey has every right to protect vessals flying its flag by means of its navy. Particularly if they are not engaged in illegal behaviour.

    In order to be considered to be deliberately running the Israeli imposed 'blockade' (more of which later,) the vessals will have to have announced the intention of carrying contraband materials (arms and munitions) to Gaza, and to in fact be carrying such materials.
    An extremely ignorant statement. Israel has no way to tell whether a vessel that did not go through an inspection by Israeli authorities is containing forbidden items or not. The very fact that they make their way to the Gaza Strip while refusing to be inspected is a clear and obvious breach of the blockade. Otherwise what good will a blockade be if a vessel can just pick up weapons and say it's humanitarian aid while making its way to the blockaded port? What you're saying here is pretty much laughable in its level of ignorance.

    What apologists for the Zionists
    Hah, "apologists for the Zionists", right. Spoken like a true radical propagandist, I bet you're using quotes of Ahmedinejad as well.

    conveniently omit to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade". The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.

    There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms. The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse. The UN's Goldstone Report found that blockade may even amount to international crimes: "Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country… could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed."
    Well first of all your precious UN has declared the blockade to be legal so I don't understand where all that confidence in the blockade's illegality coming from, the UN report has even stated that there is no lack of proportionality in the blockade's damage between civilians and Hamas members as the Gazan port is incapable of holding bigger vessels and as such the Gazan economy is completely independent on sea trade. Regardless to defend that indefensible and desperate claim of yours about the blockade being illegal you're quoting the Goldstone report, which by the way is not a UN report, it is a UNHRC report. The UNHRC is a separate body from the UN and even the UN has recognized its anti-Israeli behavior, as well as Israel the US and some of Europe. Furthermore even Goldstone himself had withdrawn himself from the report once he realized it had no connection to reality in its major part, so what good would it do to you to cling to such a report? No good at all.

    So a blockade against anything except arms and munitions would, in effect, be illegal under the terms of that document. The attempts by Israel to impose an essentially illegal blockade outside their territorial waters, should be questioned by anyone who values ethical behaviour and the rule of law. That elements of Hamas are acting illegally in sending rockets into Israeli territory, does not alter the legal status of the blockade.
    It is the opposite I am afraid, anyone who values ethical behavior and the rule of law would support Israel's right to self-defense against Gazan terrorism and would not call for the withdrawal of its biggest mean of self-defense, the blockade that prevents weapons from reaching Gazan terrorists' hands. He who calls for such withdrawal is also essentially calling of support for terrorism against the Israeli civilians, out of pure hatred for the Israelis and their state.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 09-12-11 at 03:47 AM.
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    Re: Turkish warships will escort aid vessels to Gaza

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post

    Well first of all your precious UN has declared the blockade to be legal so I don't understand where all that confidence in the blockade's illegality coming from,
    While the Palmer report said Israel did have a right to defend herself and said the naval blockade was legal, it did not say the blockade was legal

    The report also found the naval blockade of Gaza by Israel legal.

    As the occupying power over the Gaza Strip, Israel has the right to determine where and how goods and people should enter the territory it occupies so the maritime blockade as a tactic is legal. The report did not make a ruling on the entire closure regime or blockade on the Gaza strip.

    The Palmer report’s finding that the naval blockade is lawful should NOT be interpreted to mean that the entire closure regime imposed by Israel on the Gaza Strip is legal. An excellent analysis of this can be found on the ‘Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement’ website.
    Palmer Report Did Not Find Gaza Blockade Legal, Despite Media Headlines | Human Rights Now - Amnesty International USA Blog

    Link to Gisha Gisha's response to Palmer Report

    see also

    Myths and Facts on the Palmer Report | Gaza Gateway | Facts and Analysis about the Crossings
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