Hamas Rejects Unprecedented Deal for Schalit

justabubba said:

easy answer
they are the elected government of gaza
next!

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Their term in office expired in 2009, so unless your idea of democracy is one man, one vote, one time, they are just thugs with guns who would probably be trying to hitch a ride on the next flotilla that goes by if they didn't have all the guns. They have three times refused to participate in new elections when the PA proposed them. There is no sense in which Hamas can be considered a legitimate government.

GI Joe said:

Shalit is not a POW. Whether Shalit is a civillian or not is immaterial, Hamas is a terror group and terror groups dont have the right to take POW's. Hamas has no more rights or entitlements under international law than The Cali Cartel, The Chicago Outfit, The Five Families, The Warriors(my old gang in High school), The Hells Angels MC, The Norsemen-Vikings MC(my old MC), The Crips, AQ, The Sons of Silence MC, MS-13, Aryan Brotherhood, The Triads, The KKK or any other criminal organization would. What gives Hamas any more right or entitlement to take POWs than us Warriors when we were at war with the Woodland Boys?

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Hamas is a military organization taking part in active warfare with Israeli military force. Equate them with the mafia all you like but they are soldiers fighting a war and as such do, in fact, take prisoners of war.

toomuchtime_ said:

Their term in office expired in 2009, so unless your idea of democracy is one man, one vote, one time, they are just thugs with guns who would probably be trying to hitch a ride on the next flotilla that goes by if they didn't have all the guns. They have three times refused to participate in new elections when the PA proposed them. There is no sense in which Hamas can be considered a legitimate government.

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Fatah tried to overthrow the elected government. He failed in Gaza and succeeded in the West Bank. Since then there has not been an election, which means Hamas is still in charge as a caretaker government until new elections can be held. The problem with Fatah is they have consistently proposed elections that do not change the status-quo situation, which means Fatah would be able to easily determine the election results through its control of the West Bank.

toomuchtime_ said:

Their term in office expired in 2009, so unless your idea of democracy is one man, one vote, one time, they are just thugs with guns who would probably be trying to hitch a ride on the next flotilla that goes by if they didn't have all the guns. They have three times refused to participate in new elections when the PA proposed them. There is no sense in which Hamas can be considered a legitimate government.

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i was hoping you would notice
meanwhile, israel wants to negotiate a settlement with someone whose term expired well before that of hamas
pick your poison

is this a good time to also note that hamas was originated by israel as a counterweight to the fatah organization

justabubba said:

i was hoping you would notice
meanwhile, israel wants to negotiate a settlement with someone whose term expired well before that of hamas
pick your poison

is this a good time to also note that hamas was originated by israel as a counterweight to the fatah organization

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The main problem the Palestinian Arabs have is not Israel but the piss poor leadership they have always had. These scumbags lie to their people about what's possible, raising unrealistic expectations, so that when they do go into negotiations and get what they know is the best possible offer, they don't dare accept it. If we assume these guys are not stupid, the only way this behavior makes sense is if they are satisfied with the status quo.

Obama and the goofy Europeans may be having wet dreams about final status negotiations, but Netanyahu understands this is all just theater. Like all thoughtful people, Netanyahu understands that at this time final status agreements must remain aspirational goals and all that is presently achievable are interim agreements that can improve living conditions for the Palestinian Arabs. Netanyahu said as much when he first got into office, but then Obama had his little dramas that made all talks about anything impossible.

Hamas is an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, not an Israeli creation.

justabubba said:

easy answer
they are the elected government of gaza
next!

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No not easy. Legally correct. Hamas has made it clear it does not feel obliged to follow any laws and it continues to operate outside the law so it can not avail itself of the very laws it violates.

That is precisely why in internation law its being elected is immaterial to its legal status when dealing with others.

Using your analogy I can be elected and then engage in crime because I was elected. That is illogical. Being elected does not give me or any government the right to violate laws whether they be domestic or international.

You keep trotting out the fact that since you feel Hamas is elected it can be terrorist? You think that makes sense? Really?

So what. If I get elected MP in Ontario, I can become a terrorist and its o.k.?

Come on that "Hamas was elected" card you trot out to justify its terrorist behaviour is dead end.

GI Joe was merely stating the laws as they are applied. The Geneva Conventions do not apply to Hamas. They removed themselves from such consideration by engaging in terrorism. As such and it is unfortunate, Israel is expected to conduct itself according to the very treaties Hamas will not. That is the point GI was making.

The reality is Hamas does what ever suits it at any given moment. It has no code of behaviour other than use violence or any other criminal action or force necessary to obtain power-period.

I personally think its naive to think you can negotiate with a terrorist. Its like asing a rapist to engage in foreplay. It is illogical.

Mika-El said:

No not easy. Legally correct. Hamas has made it clear it does not feel obliged to follow any laws and it continues to operate outside the law so it can not avail itself of the very laws it violates.

That is precisely why in internation law its being elected is immaterial to its legal status when dealing with others.

Using your analogy I can be elected and then engage in crime because I was elected. That is illogical. Being elected does not give me or any government the right to violate laws whether they be domestic or international.

You keep trotting out the fact that since you feel Hamas is elected it can be terrorist? You think that makes sense? Really?

So what. If I get elected MP in Ontario, I can become a terrorist and its o.k.?

Come on that "Hamas was elected" card you trot out to justify its terrorist behaviour is dead end.

GI Joe was merely stating the laws as they are applied. The Geneva Conventions do not apply to Hamas. They removed themselves from such consideration by engaging in terrorism. As such and it is unfortunate, Israel is expected to conduct itself according to the very treaties Hamas will not. That is the point GI was making.

The reality is Hamas does what ever suits it at any given moment. It has no code of behaviour other than use violence or any other criminal action or force necessary to obtain power-period.

I personally think its naive to think you can negotiate with a terrorist. Its like asing a rapist to engage in foreplay. It is illogical.

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hamas is the elected government of hamas. with that, you agree
and the previous forum member insisted that hamas is not entitled to the protections of the geneva conventions and international law
as you have kindly acknowledged, the democratically elected government of gaza is so entitled
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas - WSJ.com
but for israeli actions, there would be no hamas. it was created as a counterweight to the plo/fatah ... you know, the group that murdered the israeli olympians in munich in '72. the group israel now prefers to negotiate with. it would appear the term "terrorist" is a slippery one when applied by israelis
Americans are rightfully proud of our own freedom fighting patriots of the 1770s ... because many refused to stand in a line and become easy targets, because they refused to play by the "accepted" rules of warfare of the day, the brits found them to be terrorists
i submit that the members of hamas are found to be patriotic freedom fighters to the oppressed Palestinians

and you speak of compliance with international law while the nation you defend is illegally occupying and building illegal settlements upon the land of the Palestinians
the Goldstone report has documented the international law violations of israel, but of that, you remain silent and instead point to the militants who prepare to fight for their people's soverignity
expecting the israeli government to be just is as naive as asking a rapist to engage in foreplay
which is why a trade for schalit will not proceed

Mika-El said:

I missed that. I will say it again. Palestinians are human beings. My anger and venom is directed at Hamas not Palestinians. You are right to criticize me or anyone who engages in negative slurs against Palestinians as a people. Its as wrong as when someone does it about Jews,Israelis, Muslims, Arabs, etc. Its pointless.
......................
So let's not beat around the burning bush on that one.

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Beat around the bush? am not sure what I said to warrant a lecture about Hamas? I didn't even address you, I just said that the first 3 lines in mbig's post are racist.

I've never heard a pro Palestinian ever come close to saying that Palestinians' lives are inferior (heard many Zionists do though) then after making his silly racist claim, he goes on to prove why it is "true".

i've always believed that Gilad would be kept safe because he would be deemed a valuable hostage for Hamas to use as leverage when negotiating with Israel. the events of the last 24 hours make me very worried for his well being after media reports are suggesting that the motivation behind recent Terrorist attacks my have been to kidnap another Soldier.

this must be unbearable for his family. i hope he is ok.

Other sources close to the negotiations indicated France and Germany offered to extend de facto recognition to the Hamas government in Gaza, which would allow for European investment in the territory, and were working to ease border restrictions.

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Are you serious???? This is why Hamas are a-holes. That is one hell of a deal. How the f*** do you reject that?

Hamas's political leadership accepted the proposal, but the military leadership, which has ties with Iran, rejected it," the report said.

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So, now we see the real problem in Hamas: the military leadership and Iran.

L0neW0lf said:

Beat around the bush? am not sure what I said to warrant a lecture about Hamas? I didn't even address you, I just said that the first 3 lines in mbig's post are racist.

I've never heard a pro Palestinian ever come close to saying that Palestinians' lives are inferior (heard many Zionists do though) then after making his silly racist claim, he goes on to prove why it is "true".

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Racist?
1. You shouldn't take 3 lines of 9/decontextualize before characterizing.
2. The First 3 Lines are NOT racist in any case.

My OP's first 3 lines said:

It is often said with bitterness by those against Israel that 'Jewish/Israeli lives are more precious than Palestinian ones.

Throughout the last 40 years Palestinians have made this true.
Both through the intentional/cynical sacrifice of their citizens through Intifada/s and the many rejected prisoner deals.

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That's NOT "Racist."

my following OP 6 lines said:

Most have which have Finally happened only because/not until Israel let go Hundreds of Palestinians to get one of it's citizens back.

The Schalit situation going on for many years-- and Many offers of Hundreds of Palestinians in exchange Rejected. Hamas leadership quite content to let Hundreds of Palestinian young men Rot to keep one Jew. In this case apparently 'the Military Wing' influenced by Iran.
Now the latest-- 1000 offered and rejected. Additionally, 'de facto' EU recognition would have been thrown in.

All those lives.
Where are the Families of these young men??

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My frustration that Palestinians were indeed making my point.
Many Hundreds rotting.
In fact, that's more concern/astonishment/irony from Me than Hamas Leadership has for Their prisoners.

Demon of Light said:

Actually, it is more about leverage. If they demand release on a one-for-one basis Israel will just grab some other Palestinian to replace the one being released and these militant groups are not capable of grabbing the amount of Israelis needs to secure release for hundreds of Palestinians on a one-for-one basis.

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That makes no sense. Using your "logic" Israel need only arrest 2 for every 1 Jew and would not offer hundreds or thousands for 1 Jew to have leverage. . Again I am not sure why you write such things. You are well aware in Jewish religion the signigicance of life is such that Hamas and other Muslim extremist terrorists ridicule it and exploit it and that is why they dangle 1 Jew to thousands of Muslims. They like to make a mockery and bait the Jewish concept of how valuable one life is. They think it is a joke. They think it is a sign of weakness to cherish one life and they openly say so in their responses mocking Jewish thought on life. The concept of life being expendable is deeply entrenched in their belief and the antithesis of the Jewish value attached t life. Hamas and other Muslim terrorists make a mockery of their own religion and people by reducing them to expendable fodder.

There is an irony in Muslim extremist attitude towards life you your political bias won't allow you to acknowledge and that is Hamas not Israel reduces the value of Palestinians to 1,000th that of a Jew, not Israelis. They do it every time they ridicule Shalit's life.

Its time you look at the implications of Muslim extremists like Hamas and see how they treat the value of Muslim life not just Jewish life. If they really cared about Muslims they would trade simply l Jew for 1 Muslim saying a Muslim is worth the same as a Jew. They don't. They ridicule the value of their own life because they think its acceptable to humiliate and imprison their own people to death and violence as long as it ferments the expression of hatred towards Jews.

Me personally I understand how important the return of Shalit is to Israel but if Hamas was holding me hostage I would hope I had the courage to understand I should be expendable and forgotten rather than be used as a tool to ridicule the value of Jewish life or any human life for that matter.

Its a hard thing I say but I am sure if Shalit could he would have killed himself by now rather than be used as he is. That may be very presumptuous of me to say and I do not claim to think or feel for him. I really don't know what goes through his mind if he is still alive.

More to the point no one knows if he is even alive. I wouldn't put it past Hamas that they already killed him.

An extraordinary gesture by the French President.
Sarkozy to Gilad Schalit:
Who has really shown great leadership on the International front, including Libya.

The Math. Safely assuming/using 730 Palestinians could be had for him. More egregious if one uses 1000.

Every Day he spends as prisoner means - 2 Palestinian Man-Years in Jail.
Every Week means ------- 14 Palestinian Man-Years lost.
Every Month ------------- 56 Palestinian Man-Years.
Every Year -------------- 730 Palestinian Man-Years.
6 Years he Has spent --- 4380 Palestinian Man-Years

L0neW0lf said:

Beat around the bush? am not sure what I said to warrant a lecture about Hamas? I didn't even address you, I just said that the first 3 lines in mbig's post are racist.

I've never heard a pro Palestinian ever come close to saying that Palestinians' lives are inferior (heard many Zionists do though) then after making his silly racist claim, he goes on to prove why it is "true".

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You lost me with the I was not addressing you comment. Last time I looked this was a forum to respond to anyone who writes a thread. I also missed the racism of Mr. Big. Hell I debate him all the time but I missed his racist comment.

justabubba said:

1..hamas is the elected government of hamas...
2....How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas but for israeli actions, there would be no hamas.
3.... it would appear the term "terrorist" is a slippery one when applied by israelis ...i submit that the members of hamas are found to be patriotic freedom fighters to the oppressed Palestinians
4...and you speak of compliance with international law while the nation you defend is illegally occupying and building illegal settlements upon the land of the Palestinians
5....the Goldstone report has documented the international law violations of israel...

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In regards to 1; the fact that Hamas is the democratically elected government of Hamas does not mean because it was democratically elected it can't be considered a terrorist organization as you suggest-that is illogical-its actions not how it is elected to determine whether it engages in terrorism or not;

In regards to 2; you can produce all the one-sided arguements that Hamas was created by Israel and repeat this b.s. all you want but even Hamas has publically rejected this thesis so you might want to get with the propoganda you use on their behalf and at least follow their script-for those of us who bother to read-we would contend that yes Israel most certainly funded charities affiliated with Hamas but never Hamas directly. Of course. Isn't it interesting you throw that out in such an absurd out of context manner to argue the ludicrous proposition that Israel created a terrorist organization to destroy itself simply because it was anti PLO. Right. Here let me help. Of course Israel funded Hamas affiliated charities and not Hamas itself. It helped them build roads, Mosques, greenhouses, schools, government buildings precisely because they were non violent. Did you miss that? Do I need to repeat that. Israel supported non violent charities in Gaza and got along with Palestinians and helped them build a nation. Yes. You have a problem with that? Of course you do. Lol. You have any idea how absurd it is for you to criticize that? Also do you have any idea how absurd it is for you to suggest Hamas only came about because of Israel? Lol. Does your revisionism have no common sense limits. How absurd can you get? Hamas is a direct creation of the Muslim Brotherhood as everyone knows. Israel never created it. The fact that Israel sent money to charities that worked along with Hamas does not mean they created Hamas. What a nonsensical thing to try state. The decision by an internal faction within Hamas to wrestle control and choose violence is what then resulted in the mess you pretend simply came about by Israel. It was Hamas not Israel once the violent wing that wrestled control from it that then systematically blew up the green houses, roads, buildings, Mosques and schools funded with Israeli money. That is a fact your absurd revisionism can not hide. Hamas chose to blow its people up and place rubber necklaces around their necks for being perceived as pro Israeli. It publically lit people on fire and murdered hundreds perceived as pro Israeli.

It has chosen to subject all its people to a coercion based on fear and intimidation not democratic dialogue. Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were fed up with the PLO's coruption and Hamas promised corupt free government. What it has provided Palestinians is a death grip. It insists they live in squalor and never co-exist side by side Israel and will kill any Palestinian who feels Israel can live peacefully side beside them. I was there Bubba. I saw first hand how they work. Save your revisionist statements for someone else.

In regards to 3, yes it certainly is slippery for you and you have no problem suggesting Hamas is not a terrorist organization and it is precisely why no one takes you seriously on this board. Right freedom fighters.

In regards to 4, no you no better. You know my position on expanding settlements on the West Bank. Don't misrepresent my positions. More to the point you once again show your lack of logic let alone partisan agenda trying to use the tired Israel is terrorist so Hamas can be terrorist arguement.

In regards to 5, right. That's the best you have? Lol a report that was disclosed as being full of inaccuracies and errors and which caused its author to state publically he made many mistakes in his conclusions? That is what you fall back on?

Lol.

Your script is old Bubba. Time to travel to Syria and ask the Ministry of Communications to give you some new stuff. Oh wait you can't. Sorry I forgot. Have a little problem in Syria now don't you.

Say now any day the Egyptian faction of Hamas I would say is going to want it back from the Syrian cell. You know how that is Bubba. Of course maybe some missile shots into Israel can dettract from that right?

Mika-El said:

That makes no sense. Using your "logic" Israel need only arrest 2 for every 1 Jew and would not offer hundreds or thousands for 1 Jew to have leverage. . Again I am not sure why you write such things. You are well aware in Jewish religion the signigicance of life is such that Hamas and other Muslim extremist terrorists ridicule it and exploit it and that is why they dangle 1 Jew to thousands of Muslims. They like to make a mockery and bait the Jewish concept of how valuable one life is. They think it is a joke. They think it is a sign of weakness to cherish one life and they openly say so in their responses mocking Jewish thought on life. The concept of life being expendable is deeply entrenched in their belief and the antithesis of the Jewish value attached t life. Hamas and other Muslim terrorists make a mockery of their own religion and people by reducing them to expendable fodder.

There is an irony in Muslim extremist attitude towards life you your political bias won't allow you to acknowledge and that is Hamas not Israel reduces the value of Palestinians to 1,000th that of a Jew, not Israelis. They do it every time they ridicule Shalit's life.

Its time you look at the implications of Muslim extremists like Hamas and see how they treat the value of Muslim life not just Jewish life. If they really cared about Muslims they would trade simply l Jew for 1 Muslim saying a Muslim is worth the same as a Jew. They don't. They ridicule the value of their own life because they think its acceptable to humiliate and imprison their own people to death and violence as long as it ferments the expression of hatred towards Jews.

Me personally I understand how important the return of Shalit is to Israel but if Hamas was holding me hostage I would hope I had the courage to understand I should be expendable and forgotten rather than be used as a tool to ridicule the value of Jewish life or any human life for that matter.

Its a hard thing I say but I am sure if Shalit could he would have killed himself by now rather than be used as he is. That may be very presumptuous of me to say and I do not claim to think or feel for him. I really don't know what goes through his mind if he is still alive.

More to the point no one knows if he is even alive. I wouldn't put it past Hamas that they already killed him.

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Were Hamas detaining hundreds of Israelis I can assure they would have little trouble being more equitable in their offers. They have their one card and so they play it for all they can get. Were Israel holding only a single Palestinian and Hamas had hundreds of Israelis do you think Israel would not try to get as many Israelis free in exchange for that one Palestinian as possible?

justabubba said:

hamas is the elected government of hamas. with that, you agree
and the previous forum member insisted that hamas is not entitled to the protections of the geneva conventions and international law

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I still fail to see why it matters that a terrorist organization was elected by the people to engage in terrorism, and why that then insulates that organization from disapprobation when it actually engages in that terrorism. If anything, it makes the people complicit in those crimes, rather than absolving the guilty party of guilt.

As for the geneva conventions and international law, I assume you are not supporting the proposition that the Palestinians and their leadership are systematically engaging in war crimes and crimes against humanity and therefore deserve to be prosecuted and/or isolated on the world stage for this barbarity, so you may want to be a bit more precise. As far as "protections" go, I'm pretty sure the geneva conventions and international law (such that it is) do not serve to unsultae terrorists who happen to have been elected into the government of a non-state and non-sub-state entity.

i submit that the members of hamas are found to be patriotic freedom fighters to the oppressed Palestinians

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And I submit that Hamas is a brutal terrorist organization that is dedicated to the destruction of a UN member state and has engaged in systematic war crimes and crimes against humanity over decades in pursuit of that goal.

Incidentally, I have the advantage over you of being correct in my assertion, so that's something.

justabubba said:

easy answer
they are the elected government of gaza
next!

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They are not the elected government of Gaza. They were elected to the PA legislature and siezed power in Gaza.
Even if we ignore the fact that as a criminal terror organization Hamas has no right to take POW's. Being elected to the legislature does not give them the right to take POWs by either themselves as a group separate from the PA nor do they as the PA because the executive branch makes those decisions not the legislature.

Demon of Light said:

Were Israel holding only a single Palestinian and Hamas had hundreds of Israelis do you think Israel would not try to get as many Israelis free in exchange for that one Palestinian as possible?

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You again miss the point. The point is if Hamas did not engage in terrorism but instead engaged in peaceful dialogue with Israel you would not be asking the above question. Your question presupposes that Hamas' terrorism is necessary and so hostage taking is reasonable as an adjunct of terrorism and so we can discuss exchanges of hostages in a reasonable manner.

That is illogical and absurd.

Mika-El said:

You again miss the point. The point is if Hamas did not engage in terrorism but instead engaged in peaceful dialogue with Israel you would not be asking the above question. Your question presupposes that Hamas' terrorism is necessary and so hostage taking is reasonable as an adjunct of terrorism and so we can discuss exchanges of hostages in a reasonable manner.

That is illogical and absurd.

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Hamas is at war with Israel and so it is not "taking hostages" but taking prisoners.

Demon of Light said:

Hamas is at war with Israel and so it is not "taking hostages" but taking prisoners.

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Even conceding that, it is also committing a war crime by not allowing the red cross to visit him. And of course its war methods include a very heavy dose of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

But I guess that's ok, cause they're Arabs and/or they're fighting against the Jews, and/or something.

Demon of Light said:

Hamas is at war with Israel and so it is not "taking hostages" but taking prisoners.

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Ah, so THAT'S what makes all that terrorism A O.K.

I was wondering about that.

CJ 2.0 said:

Even conceding that, it is also committing a war crime by not allowing the red cross to visit him. And of course its war methods include a very heavy dose of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

But I guess that's ok, cause they're Arabs and/or they're fighting against the Jews, and/or something.

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Gardener said:

Ah, so THAT'S what makes all that terrorism A O.K.

I was wondering about that.

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Nice how the two of you ignore the point of my post and just jump to inflammatory garbage as a response. The usage of the term "hostage" to refer to an active-duty soldier detained by an opposing force was meant to portray an image of the situation different than that of the reality. It was an argument clearly aimed at dodging my previous point that, were the tables reversed, Israel would be just as insistent on an unfair trade as Hamas is with Shalit.

Demon of Light said:

Nice how the two of you ignore the point of my post and just jump to inflammatory garbage as a response. The usage of the term "hostage" to refer to an active-duty soldier detained by an opposing force was meant to portray an image of the situation different than that of the reality. It was an argument clearly aimed at dodging my previous point that, were the tables reversed, Israel would be just as insistent on an unfair trade as Hamas is with Shalit.

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Do you believe there is a legit analogy between Hamas terrorists who are held in Israeli prison for murder, assisting murder and all other sort of criminal activity associated with terrorisem to Shalit being held by Hamas? Are they both prisoners of war?
As I see it the Hamas prisoners are criminals who are imprisoned, so even if you consider Shalit as a POW and not a hostage, Hamas has no right to ask for a mass release of murderers as a part of a POW exchange, such a demand is more close to a ransom demand which makes Shalit in a status of a hostage, not a POW.

Demon of Light said:

Hamas is at war with Israel and so it is not "taking hostages" but taking prisoners.

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No its not at war. Its engaged in terror. It has never legall declared war and followed the Geneva Convention which defines war. "war" is actually a legal term. Hamas does not believe in laws and that is the point. It does not conduct a war. It doesn't follow an honour code and code of conduct during its so called war. This is why it does not wear uniforms and engage in battle with the IDF. This is why it uses its own civilians as shields and deliberately places them in the line of fire to die so they can get public sympathy. This is why it kidnaps and targets civilians-it doesn't engage in war-it engages in terror-lawless violence designed to attack and kill civilians whether they be their own or Israelis or anyone else.

Save that b.s. for someone else.

By the way,the next time you lecture us on how Israel is unreasonable because it won't negotiate with Hamas do remember your words. Using your words, if Hamas is at war with Israel, then Israel has no obligation to sit around and die. It can defend itself.

That is you know how war works. In war no one is expected to just die and not fight back. Using your absurd conduct if Hamas conduct is not terrorist and is simply an act of war, then you are a blatant hypocrite for suggesting Israel engages in terrorism against Palestinians-using your very words if as you have falsely accused them of many times, deliberately targetted civilians and kidnapped Palestinians, then according to you, they are simply engaging in war.

See the attempt to sluff off Hamas terrorism and spin it as reasonable and simply acts of war, works both ways Demon. You pull
that its just war card, then Israel can do the same and it renders all your criticism of Israel pointless.

Hamas is an illegal criminal outfit. It does not and has never recognized any convention as to conduct during war. It deliberately violates them compelling Israel to engage in actions to prevent terror attacks on its people.

No shooting missiles at civilians, sending terrorists in to kill civilians are not acts of war. They are acts of terrorism.

Ironiocally they even violate the Koran's code of conduct for war. But you knew that.

ido_ said:

Do you believe there is a legit analogy between Hamas terrorists who are held in Israeli prison for murder, assisting murder and all other sort of criminal activity associated with terrorisem to Shalit being held by Hamas? Are they both prisoners of war?
As I see it the Hamas prisoners are criminals who are imprisoned, so even if you consider Shalit as a POW and not a hostage, Hamas has no right to ask for a mass release of murderers as a part of a POW exchange, such a demand is more close to a ransom demand which makes Shalit in a status of a hostage, not a POW.

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The Spin is Hamas is democratically elected and engages in war and does nothing illegal. It doesn't engage in terror when it attacks and kills civilians, it engages in war. The revisionist spin is Palestiniasn democratically elected it, not because they promised non corupt government that would help the people, but because Palestinians wanted them to engage in terrorism against Israeli civilians and Palestinians as they do.

Its all real simple you know. Hamas are angels.