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ATF siezes dangerous weapons!

Ikari said:
So you are excusing improper state confiscation. Nice.
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Unlike you, I don't assume to know how the mistake was made, and which errors were made in the process.

I also don't assume that the news media has the entire story either. As they usually don't.
 
Caine said:
Unlike you, I don't assume to know how the mistake was made, and which errors were made in the process.

I also don't assume that the news media has the entire story either. As they usually don't.
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I assume that the person is innocent until proven guilty. That they are entitled to their property, that the police and DA must show there is a crime and if not must give back the stolen property. Maybe you don't assume that, but it's part of the foundation of this country. The People are free, the government constrained. I don't know, it seems to me that many in power don't remember that part.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Nope. I'm going to say, "That might be a real gun", and shoot the dope that is threatening me with it. If it turns out to be a toy, then I'll wonder why he was such an idiot. If, on the other hand, I don't shoot and it turns out to be the real thing, then I'm the dead idiot.
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My father told me never to point an UNloaded gun at someone for that reason
 
Ikari said:
I assume that the person is innocent until proven guilty. That they are entitled to their property, that the police and DA must show there is a crime and if not must give back the stolen property. Maybe you don't assume that, but it's part of the foundation of this country. The People are free, the government constrained. I don't know, it seems to me that many in power don't remember that part.
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I cannot tell you how many cases I have heard of where cops took guns from people and it took all sorts of judicial wrangling to get them to give it back. In many cases the citizen was entitled to it clearly yet the cops balked.

The best thing to do is to file a 42 USC Section 1983 suit against the cops which puts it in federal court and involves a deprivation of constitutional rights under the "color of state law"

People get pulled over and have a gun locked in the trunk and a cop decides he wants it so he claims "improper transportation". Many people are willing to give up the gun rather than go to court and face an MI charge.
 
USA-1 said:
Actually this looks more like a toy:
guns.jpg

But it isn't.
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Put Jallman's rifle away.
 
Caine said:
I don't have a problem with the seizure of these BB guns.

There are going to be hundreds (maybe just tens) less dead idiots now by the hands of Law Enforcement when at a distance they can't tell the difference and end up opening fire on some poor moron running around with it.

Not to mention the fear that can be instilled by wanna be (or real) gang thugs using these weapons to commit armed robbery.
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I do. What the police did was violate the 4th Amendment of the Constitution. The seizure of these weapons was unreasonable and constitutes theft on the part of the police.

Both the department responsible for the confiscation and the idiots in the ATF who claimed they were real need to be removed from active duty immediately.

Moreover, the owner of those toys needs to file a lawsuit against the the deparment who confiscated them and the ATF. This is NOT the first time the ATM has failed to use good judgment and this time it needs to cost them.

Anybody here remember Waco, Texas? Anybody remember how the front doors of the compound were seized by the ATF and then mysteriously dissppeared?

It's time for the ATF to get their heads out of their asses.
 
Vader said:
I do. What the police did was violate the 4th Amendment of the Constitution. The seizure of these weapons was unreasonable and constitutes theft on the part of the police.

Both the department responsible for the confiscation and the idiots in the ATF who claimed they were real need to be removed from active duty immediately.

Moreover, the owner of those toys needs to file a lawsuit against the the deparment who confiscated them and the ATF. This is NOT the first time the ATM has failed to use good judgment and this time it needs to cost them.

Anybody here remember Waco, Texas? Anybody remember how the front doors of the compound were seized by the ATF and then mysteriously dissppeared?

It's time for the ATF to get their heads out of their asses.
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Hey, why don't you go ahead and post all of the information the ATF has then on this subject.

You must know all the facts to be accusing them of violating the 4th amendment like you sat through an entire hearing on the matter right?
 
Caine said:
Hey, why don't you go ahead and post all of the information the ATF has then on this subject.

You must know all the facts to be accusing them of violating the 4th amendment like you sat through an entire hearing on the matter right?
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The facts that we do know include the ATF seizing a shipment of goods belonging to a private party without due process of law. It doesn't take a Supreme Court justice to figure out that the 4th. Amendment has been violated. Since that sort of property seizure happens all the time, we've come to accept it,which makes it worse. As soon as we begin to accept violations of any of the Bill of Rights, said violations become routine.

If we're not willing to be vigilant, then we may as well just cross the 4th. Amendment out. which one are we willing to erase next?
 
ATF is a symptom of unconstitutional actions by the US government. and yes WACO was a fundraiser for the ATF--they figured they'd go in-show all this weaponry that would cause people like Pelosi to soil their panties, have a big photo op and congress would vote those clowns a few more billion dollars.
 
TurtleDude said:
ATF is a symptom of unconstitutional actions by the US government. and yes WACO was a fundraiser for the ATF--they figured they'd go in-show all this weaponry that would cause people like Pelosi to soil their panties, have a big photo op and congress would vote those clowns a few more billion dollars.
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The Waco siege lasted 50 days. What happened there was totally David Koresh's fault not the ATF. They tried to serve a legal warrant and were greeted with gunfire. Koresh was responsible for every life lost. It was a no win situation for the Feds. It's sad when some support criminals over law enforcement.
 
USA-1 said:
The Waco siege lasted 50 days. What happened there was totally David Koresh's fault not the ATF. They tried to serve a legal warrant and were greeted with gunfire. Koresh was responsible for every life lost. It was a no win situation for the Feds. It's sad when some support criminals over law enforcement.
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everyone was at fault-especially the "batfags" as they are known to the pro rights community.

what was purpose of a storm trooper raid

why did the davidians call the local sheriff?

serving a warrant they way they did was nothing more than a bs photo op attempt

especially since the warrant was issued under false pretenses

BTW at least a couple of the atf types were shot by their own people

given that Vern Howell was in town constantly there was no need for this grandstanding

btw none of the davidians were convicted of murder meaning it was determined that if they shot the batf types it was justified
 
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TurtleDude said:
everyone was at fault-especially the "batfags" as they are known to the pro rights community.

what was purpose of a storm trooper raid

why did the davidians call the local sheriff?

serving a warrant they way they did was nothing more than a bs photo op attempt

especially since the warrant was issued under false pretenses

BTW at least a couple of the atf types were shot by their own people

given that Vern Howell was in town constantly there was no need for this grandstanding

btw none of the davidians were convicted of murder meaning it was determined that if they shot the batf types it was justified
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Wrong. David Koresh caused the entire ordeal. He was the criminal.
 
USA-1 said:
Wrong. David Koresh caused the entire ordeal. He was the criminal.
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well the jury disagreed with you

what did he do that deserved a full scale assault on his compound?

had he refused a search warrant?

had he shot at a process server

had he refused to accept previous requests by the local constabulary
 
Caine said:
Hey, why don't you go ahead and post all of the information the ATF has then on this subject.

You must know all the facts to be accusing them of violating the 4th amendment like you sat through an entire hearing on the matter right?
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The ATF confiscated toys and the called them real to cover their mistake. This is act constitutes a direct violation of the 4th Amendment.
 
Vader said:
The ATF confiscated toys and the called them real to cover their mistake. This is act constitutes a direct violation of the 4th Amendment.
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Did you read the article?

The Customs agents seized the "toys", notified the ATF. The ATF determined they could be converted into actual automatic weapons by slight modifications. Thus ATF seized the weapons. Whether I believe this part or not doesn't matter, Im not an expert in weaponry either.


However, im praying to god you never become a judge some day because everything is so simplistic with you, even when you don't know the damned story apparently.
 
TurtleDude said:
what did he do that deserved a full scale assault on his compound?
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There was intel that children were being molested, the group was armed to the teeth and that a confrontation was inevitable. A warrant was presented and the agents were fired upon. No one has the right to fire upon law enforcement. Koresh was responsible for everything that happened after that.
Koresh was not the hero some of you make him out to be. He was more along the lines of Jim Jones. He brainwashed his followers.
I really don't understand how you think they were justified to shoot at law enforcement agents. It boggles the mind.
 
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Caine said:
Did you read the article?

The Customs agents seized the "toys", notified the ATF. The ATF determined they could be converted into actual automatic weapons by slight modifications. Thus ATF seized the weapons. Whether I believe this part or not doesn't matter, Im not an expert in weaponry either.


However, im praying to god you never become a judge some day because everything is so simplistic with you, even when you don't know the damned story apparently.
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The ATF determined that BB guns could be converted into actual automatic weapons by slight modifications?

Is it too much to ask that the ATF know a little something about the F in their name?

The requirements for shooting plastic BBs are slightly different from those of firing high velocity lead bullets propelled by explosive charges.
 
Caine said:
Did you read the article?

The Customs agents seized the "toys", notified the ATF. The ATF determined they could be converted into actual automatic weapons by slight modifications. Thus ATF seized the weapons. Whether I believe this part or not doesn't matter, Im not an expert in weaponry either.


However, im praying to god you never become a judge some day because everything is so simplistic with you, even when you don't know the damned story apparently.
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I am and that is complete bull excrement. The receivers of airsoft guns cannot handle the CUP ratings of 9mm

now they could be converted into fully automatic air soft pellet weapons.

REAL FIREARMS that can easily be converted into fully automatic FIREARMS are not allowed to be imported. That is why OPEN BOLT firearms like the Austrian VOERE 22 was banned and that is why the domestically made original Intertech was banned

for a semi auto firearm to be imported the ATF certifies it is not readily convertible.

to claim plastic barrelled air soft weapons could be "easily modified" is specious
 
USA-1 said:
There was intel that children were being molested, the group was armed to the teeth and that a confrontation was inevitable. A warrant was presented and the agents were fired upon. No one has the right to fire upon law enforcement. Koresh was responsible for everything that happened after that.
Koresh was not the hero some of you make him out to be. He was more along the lines of Jim Jones. He brainwashed his followers.
I really don't understand how you think they were justified to shoot at law enforcement agents. It boggles the mind.
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child molestation is not a jurisdicitonal grounds for the ATF to be involved.

I think VErn howell was a nut case but he always had cooperated with authorities in the past

this was a photo op by cowardly atf thugs
 
TurtleDude said:
child molestation is not a jurisdicitonal grounds for the ATF to be involved.

I think VErn howell was a nut case but he always had cooperated with authorities in the past

this was a photo op by cowardly atf thugs
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What a crock. Koresh had a cult going, a heavily armed, suicidal cult. The ATF was involved because of the number of weapons involved. I can not believe there are Americans like you that actually believe it is OK to fire upon law enforcement. Koresh should have surrendered and let the court sort it out, of course unless he was facing some serious time behind bars. Then I guess it was OK to fight to the last man.
The thugs were the leaders of the cult.
Photo op? What a joke.
Would you still have supported the Waco cult had they been Muslims?
 
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Dittohead not! said:
The ATF determined that BB guns could be converted into actual automatic weapons by slight modifications?

Is it too much to ask that the ATF know a little something about the F in their name?

The requirements for shooting plastic BBs are slightly different from those of firing high velocity lead bullets propelled by explosive charges.
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So, then, admittedly, you are a firearms expert then.. right?

You know all about this Model BB gun that they were dealing with as well as the needed requirements to fire a rifle round out of this model of BB gun, because you know all about military weaponry, down to how it is made, the strength of the metal etc, and then you know all of the specifications of this "BB" gun, right? I mean, your like a certified gunsmith with a specialization in military weaponry, am I right?
 
TurtleDude said:
I am and that is complete bull excrement. The receivers of airsoft guns cannot handle the CUP ratings of 9mm

now they could be converted into fully automatic air soft pellet weapons.

REAL FIREARMS that can easily be converted into fully automatic FIREARMS are not allowed to be imported. That is why OPEN BOLT firearms like the Austrian VOERE 22 was banned and that is why the domestically made original Intertech was banned

for a semi auto firearm to be imported the ATF certifies it is not readily convertible.

to claim plastic barrelled air soft weapons could be "easily modified" is specious
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So your a gunsmith with a specialization in military weaponry then?
 
Caine said:
So your a gunsmith with a specialization in military weaponry then?
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No

I am an attorney who as been counsel to a Title II manufacturer (Machine guns, destructive devices ), a class III dealer (machine guns and silencers) a regular FFL dealer (common firearms) and a law enforcement agency which often dealt with automatic weapons. I also have been a world class competitive shooter, a sponsored "action pistol" master class shooter and qualified Expert in handgun and service rifle (miltary course)and Distinguished expert on the USMS handgun qualification. I also have shot extensively all sorts of small arms from the BAR, the M14, M16, UZI, Mac 10/11. Sten/Lancaster/Sterling SMGs, THompson SMG, HK MP-5, FN-FAL, Steyr Aug, Beretta AR70, Russian, Chinese, Hungarian, Polish, Czech and Bulgarian variations of the AK family

I am not a certified gunsmith but I can build a 1911 or an AR-15 from a parts kit. I also have been involved in teaching marksmanship and concealed carry courses to hundreds.

One doesn't have to be a master automotive mechanic or a Formula One Pit crew boss to know you cannot turn a VW beetle into an Indy 500 car either
 
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TurtleDude said:
No

I am an attorney who as been counsel to a Title II manufacturer (Machine guns, destructive devices ), a class III dealer (machine guns and silencers) a regular FFL dealer (common firearms) and a law enforcement agency which often dealt with automatic weapons. I also have been a world class competitive shooter, a sponsored "action pistol" master class shooter and qualified Expert in handgun and service rifle (miltary course)and Distinguished expert on the USMS handgun qualification. I also have shot extensively all sorts of small arms from the BAR, the M14, M16, UZI, Mac 10/11. Sten/Lancaster/Sterling SMGs, THompson SMG, HK MP-5, FN-FAL, Steyr Aug, Beretta AR70, Russian, Chinese, Hungarian, Polish, Czech and Bulgarian variations of the AK family

I am not a certified gunsmith but I can build a 1911 or an AR-15 from a parts kit. I also have been involved in teaching marksmanship and concealed carry courses to hundreds.

One doesn't have to be a master automotive mechanic or a Formula One Pit crew boss to know you cannot turn a VW beetle into an Indy 500 car either
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Actually, I believe one can turn a VW beetle into an Indy 500 car with the right modifications.
 
Caine said:
Actually, I believe one can turn a VW beetle into an Indy 500 car with the right modifications.
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I will take your word for it but It would take about as much work as turning an airsoft gun into a functioning automatic weapon firing centerfire cartridges.

9mm ammo operates around 35,000 CUP (Copper Units of Pressure). that requires a rather strong barrel and chamber. to get a air soft gun to shoot that stuff you would have to put ordnance grade steel in the barrel, modify the chamber to feed 9mm rather than 6mm plastic balls. then create working firing pin system to detonate the primers.

its easier building one from scratch like a sten gun which anyone with a basic machinist's skill and a bridgeport lathe can fabricate.
 
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