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Are The Police Racist?

Citizen.Seven said:
Actually, as I showed above and you showed in even more detail, the system is racist: More whites per capita are killed than their threat level would indicate, while fewer blacks are killed with the same caveat. In order to effect equality of outcomes, we would either have to convince more whites to attempt to kill cops, or have LEOs kill more blacks. Of course, I advocate neither solution, but it does spotlight the notion that the entire BLM movement is based on a....let's be kind and call it a "misconception" regarding the relative risk of whites vs blacks interacting with LEOs.
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Wtf? To effect equality of outcomes? There is no need to do that and that does not show a system is racist.
The system is a reactionary one, it cares not what your skin color is.
 
Citizen.Seven said:
Actually, as I showed above and you showed in even more detail, the system is racist: More whites per capita are killed than their threat level would indicate, while fewer blacks are killed with the same caveat. In order to effect equality of outcomes, we would either have to convince more whites to attempt to kill cops, or have LEOs kill more blacks. Of course, I advocate neither solution, but it does spotlight the notion that the entire BLM movement is based on a....let's be kind and call it a "misconception" regarding the relative risk of whites vs blacks interacting with LEOs.
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Cops are shot by blacks more than blacks are shot by cops...
 
Renae said:
Someone didn't watch the video...

Thanks for making those statements. Those who watched the video can laugh now.
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I watched the video. I even followed it back to it's source, mainly in the vain hope that they'd provide any kind of references for their "statistics" but apparently they don't, even in the transcript. Give the nature of the source, my suspicion is that they're cherry-picked, massaged and misrepresented figures designed to fit a pre-defined conclusion. This is why I don't trust this kind of video in the first place. It's far too easy to spin a convincing narrative and push though assertions before anyone can question them.

Please note that I'm not making any of my own assertions on the actual topic here so any attacks on that basis would be misdirected.
 
HonestJoe said:
I watched the video. I even followed it back to it's source, mainly in the vain hope that they'd provide any kind of references for their "statistics" but apparently they don't, even in the transcript. Give the nature of the source, my suspicion is that they're cherry-picked, massaged and misrepresented figures designed to fit a pre-defined conclusion. This is why I don't trust this kind of video in the first place. It's far too easy to spin a convincing narrative and push though assertions before anyone can question them.

Please note that I'm not making any of my own assertions on the actual topic here so any attacks on that basis would be misdirected.
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They did, it's really a cover video for us White people to keep our Police Racist. You caught us. You win the thread, no need to post again.
 
HonestJoe said:
I watched the video. I even followed it back to it's source, mainly in the vain hope that they'd provide any kind of references for their "statistics" but apparently they don't, even in the transcript. Give the nature of the source, my suspicion is that they're cherry-picked, massaged and misrepresented figures designed to fit a pre-defined conclusion. This is why I don't trust this kind of video in the first place. It's far too easy to spin a convincing narrative and push though assertions before anyone can question them.

Please note that I'm not making any of my own assertions on the actual topic here so any attacks on that basis would be misdirected.
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Then read the following.


Excon said:
Police shoot more white folks in sheer numbers than they do blacks. If all things were equal, that is what should be expected.

If broken down by racial proportions, the numbers then reflect that the Police kill disproportionately more blacks than whites.
But the problem with that stat is that not all members of a race interact with police on a criminal level, so the whole number of a race can not be used for comparative purposes.
The numbers need to be broken down further to only those who interact with them.
When that is done it becomes clear that whites are shot more times than blacks are.


Whether officers, veterans or civilians, the subjects consistently hesitated longer before firing at black suspects and were much more likely to mistakenly shoot an unarmed white suspect, the researchers found. And when they failed to fire at an armed suspect — a potentially fatal mistake — the suspect was about five times more likely to be black than white. The study’s 36 police officers were the lone exception in failing to fire: The suspect’s race wasn’t a factor in their decision not to shoot. “The findings were very unexpected given the previous experimental research,” said Lois James, an assistant professor who conducted the research.

Are Police Bigoted?
Race and Police Shootings: Are Blacks Targeted More?



Adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown of the U.S. population, he said black men are 3.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men. But also adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown in violent crime, the data actually show that police are less likely to kill black suspects than white ones.

“If one adjusts for the racial disparity in the homicide rate or the rate at which police are feloniously killed, whites are actually more likely to be killed by police than blacks,” said Mr. Moskos, a former Baltimore cop and author of the book “Cop in the Hood.”

“Adjusted for the homicide rate, whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks die at the hands of police,” he said. “Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed, whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police.”

Police kill more whites than blacks, but minority deaths generate more outrage

Analysis contradicts widespread views about racial targets


The real racial bias: Cops more willing to shoot whites than blacks, research finds

It’s widely assumed that white police officers are more likely to shoot black suspects as a result of racial bias, but recent research suggests the opposite is true.​

The real racial bias: Cops more willing to shoot whites than blacks, research finds​
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Fishking said:
I'm not the U.S. so I'm not sure what that has to do with me.
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Ok, where are you from? I'll dig up some shameful act from your country's history and assign it to you like you're doing when you suggest the police must have racist elements left over from our country's past.
 
radcen said:
Disagree with the second line, the stats merely suggest. Otherwise, good points.



Any articulate person can make almost anything sound convincing. It's still just an opinion. Need to do better than that.
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Actually, she rattled off a bunch of stats. If I tell you the batting averages of the 1926 Yankees, it's not my opinion, they're statistical facts.
 
JC Callender said:
Actually, she rattled off a bunch of stats. If I tell you the batting averages of the 1926 Yankees, it's not my opinion, they're statistical facts.
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Government and social issue stats are notorious for being manipulable. What was included? What was conveniently left out, or rather "lied by omission"? They don't equate to baseball stats.

Many years ago I read about two sides spouting stats regarding seat belt use, one side for and one side against... and both sides used the same study.
 
Renae said:
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police has a whole? of course not
are certain officers racist, of course thats just basic mathematics and stats
do certain departments have racists or at least biased policies, yep
does the just system "in general" show these same traits . . yes
its something that needs addressed and fixed and really only time will do it, its getting better and needs to conintues but the majority of cops are good cops :shrug:
 
radcen said:
Government and social issue stats are notorious for being manipulable. What was included? What was conveniently left out, or rather "lied by omission"? They don't equate to baseball stats.

Many years ago I read about two sides spouting stats regarding seat belt use, one side for and one side against... and both sides used the same study.
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Ok, well is there a stat you disagree with? Or do you simply not want to believe her?
 
JC Callender said:
Ok, where are you from? I'll dig up some shameful act from your country's history and assign it to you like you're doing when you suggest the police must have racist elements left over from our country's past.
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I'm a U.S. citizen but I am not the living embodiment of the country. And I didn't say it was the police. I specifically said that I didn't think it was the police. The police just deal with the problems. You can't honestly believe that we went from having to use the national guard to desegregate schools just a few decades ago to being completely free of issues today. I think most of the problem is actually in the private sector though, at a societal level.
 
Excon said:
Wtf? To effect equality of outcomes? There is no need to do that and that does not show a system is racist.
The system is a reactionary one, it cares not what your skin color is.
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Well, my modest proposal was meant in jest. However, the usual narrative is that any discrepancy between races (economic, educational, political, etc) is due to systematic racism. By that interpretation, and given the statistics above, LEOs are racist against whites.
 
Jetboogieman said:
The justice system has always been racially biased in the US.

The stats prove that.

So, are the police racist?

I don't believe that for a second, the majority of police are racist.

Has the US justice system and catastrophic laws related to the war on drugs decimated the black community, sowed doubt, distrust and anger against law enforcement?

Absolutely.
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I agree with most but I question the "stats" that show racism. I don't for a minute buy into President Obama's racist theory of "Adverse Impact".
 
Bodhisattva said:
"Systems", are racist? uhhhh....

A system is made up of the people in it. If the people are not racist then the system is not racist.
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No, the system is not the sum of the parts. People are basically good but organizations, systems, aren't. People have compassion, pity, caring. Organizations don't. And organizations and the damned desire to belong to the group can destroy the best individuals.
 
Years ago, a group from the Gay Alliance approached me and asked if the police officers in our city were homophobic. I said I really didn't know. I suggested they have members of their group come and ride with officers, which anyone could do, and form their own opinion. I suggest the first echelon of riders not be stereotypically gay. One guy jumped and said, "And just what do mean by that?" One of the other guys said, "Sit down, Bruce. We all know what he means."

They did have people come and ride and moved up to having obviously gay people riding. The people from the organization said the officers, one on one, seemed fine. So, I explained why officers were awkward in public settings with gays. They were afraid. Afraid they'd say the wrong thing, look the wrong way, blunder in some inconceivable way and there would be a riot or at least a political hullabaloo with them in the vortex. In my opinion, their fear was unjustified but most fears are.

Now, move that to other groups. Blacks, immigrants, whatever. We have some political factions who spend a great deal of time increasing separation, increasing isolation, and working very hard to make sure Americans don't figure out that being American supercedes the artificial divisions. Sadly, those who want division, who want class warfare, race warfare, gender warfare, religion warfare and other other warfare they can exploit are doing a good job. We have reached the point where people are afraid to even talk to each other. It's sad.

One last. A black man called me to complain about how the police handled a domestic disturbance between him and his white girlfriend. I listened and thought the officers could have done a lot better. When he finished complaining I told him what I could do to help and then he asked me if most of the police officers were racist.

"No, most of the police officers here have never known a black person. Most have never sat down and talked to a black person. Most have never even known working class people since all they did was go to school before they were cops. All they know about blacks is what they see on television. Do the names O.J. Simpson and Rodney King and Al Sharpton ring a bell?"

He was quiet a moment and says, "It sucks, doesn't it?" "Pretty much."
 
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Jetboogieman said:
Drug laws are the primary driver of the disproportionate punishment of African Americans.

Drug use rates are virtually identical across the board, between whites and blacks and yet:

image-1.png


That's the problem.

Drug laws are dumb as it is, and throughout the war on drugs, it has always disproportionately affected black people even though use rates were the same.

Sentencing was also an issue in cocaine vs. Crack cocaine, even though again, use rates were similar and actually cocaine use among whites was higher than crack cocaine use among blacks:

Screen-Shot-2014-10-15-at-3.09.28-PM.png


789x283xblack-vs-white-drug-sentencing.jpg.pagespeed.ic.gQfyxiP1VH.jpg


This is all well documented and has been known for some time.
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Why are blacks selling more drugs?
 
Citizen.Seven said:
As a function of threat level, LEOs kill an excess of whites compared to blacks. That's indicative of institutionized racism against whites.
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No it is not.
It is an indication that whites (mostly males) interact on such a level with police more than blacks do.
 
Patrickt said:
No, the system is not the sum of the parts. People are basically good but organizations, systems, aren't. People have compassion, pity, caring. Organizations don't. And organizations and the damned desire to belong to the group can destroy the best individuals.
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Wrong. The system is how the people in it portray it.

Example. Going through customs can be unnerving. Agent sits and gives blank stares never smiling. System seems cold until you interact with an agent who asks how your trip was. Smiles and says welcome back to the USA. All of a sudden the system seems nice and caring. It changes due to the people in it.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Wrong. The system is how the people in it portray it.

Example. Going through customs can be unnerving. Agent sits and gives blank stares never smiling. System seems cold until you interact with an agent who asks how your trip was. Smiles and says welcome back to the USA. All of a sudden the system seems nice and caring. It changes due to the people in it.
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And I disagree. Organizations have a culture. There are always a few who don't fit in, as with your Customs Agent, but they are punished for not being part of the "team" and often don't make it to retirement. I have seen organizations move from healthy, decent cultures to horrible cultures. They can move the other way, too, but the nature of an organization is to promote the organization, protect the organization, and increase the power of the organization.

I'll stick to people being basically good, organizations not being basically good, and organizations destroying good people.

I had a friend who became an IRS agent. When he got back from the training he was telling me funny stories. As he started on his third story I said, "Carl, I don't know if it was drugs or what but those aren't funny stories. They tragic." He got mad and stormed off. A year later I was working and saw Carl jogging. He flagged me down. He said he wanted to apologize for not calling and he said the stories weren't funny. He said, "It's my job and parts of it are tragedies." He was, in my opinion, an excellent IRS agent. Instead of destroying people and laughing he actually tried to help people. He never promoted. He held his job but was not well thought of. He wasn't part of the "team". When he retired he helped people at odds with the IRS as a hobby. A good person can survive a bad organization but that's about all.

If Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton either one hired a truly honest, decent person in a high level position in their campaigns they wouldn't last a week. The organization is what it is.
 
Patrickt said:
And I disagree. Organizations have a culture. There are always a few who don't fit in, as with your Customs Agent, but they are punished for not being part of the "team" and often don't make it to retirement. I have seen organizations move from healthy, decent cultures to horrible cultures. They can move the other way, too, but the nature of an organization is to promote the organization, protect the organization, and increase the power of the organization.

I'll stick to people being basically good, organizations not being basically good, and organizations destroying good people.

I had a friend who became an IRS agent. When he got back from the training he was telling me funny stories. As he started on his third story I said, "Carl, I don't know if it was drugs or what but those aren't funny stories. They tragic." He got mad and stormed off. A year later I was working and saw Carl jogging. He flagged me down. He said he wanted to apologize for not calling and he said the stories weren't funny. He said, "It's my job and parts of it are tragedies." He was, in my opinion, an excellent IRS agent. Instead of destroying people and laughing he actually tried to help people. He never promoted. He held his job but was not well thought of. He wasn't part of the "team". When he retired he helped people at odds with the IRS as a hobby. A good person can survive a bad organization but that's about all.

If Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton either one hired a truly honest, decent person in a high level position in their campaigns they wouldn't last a week. The organization is what it is.
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But the ones making the smiling agent not a part of the team are people too... all it takes is a change in the people to change how the systems feels to people. It is the people. There is no system without them. A system's culture is the people. A culture is a man made concept and entity. People.
 
Bodhisattva said:
But the ones making the smiling agent not a part of the team are people too... all it takes is a change in the people to change how the systems feels to people. It is the people. There is no system without them. A system's culture is the people. A culture is a man made concept and entity. People.
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I wish. It doesn't work that way. You move good people in and the organization, and the people thriving in it either change the good people to fit the organization or drive them out.
 
Patrickt said:
I wish. It doesn't work that way. You move good people in and the organization, and the people thriving in it either change the good people to fit the organization or drive them out.
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Do you think I dont work with people in an organization, or something?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Do you think I dont work with people in an organization, or something?
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Of course you do. And, I'm sure you realize I could have said that same thing when you disagreed with me.

That doesn't mean you see the organization as it is. The union cops I knew would have said exactly what you said. If the department only had brother union officers all would be great.

I was investigating a brutality complaint and a young officer who had to have seen what happened was swearing he was looking somewhere else through the entire incident. Finally he said, "If I told you what I saw, no one would talk to me, no one would go to coffee with me."

Organizations have no soul. They don't have what people have that makes them kind and generous and honest and decent. I submitted a plan to have clerks work from home. I thought it was a good plan to help young mothers, especially single mothers. The personnel director got very excited about my plan but pointed out the things I missed. We could make them contract employees and we wouldn't have to give them sick leave or vacation time. We wouldn't have to provide them with health insurance. Some of the other "team players" cheered him on. I trashed the plan.

Organizations are basically bad, but necessary. If an organization could be evaluated by a psychologists it would more often than not be found to be a sociopath.

They can destroy good people and good people rarely change the organization.

Consider the Constitution. Why did the founding fathers go to such lengths to protect us, the individuals, from the organization, the government. They knew. And the organizations have been steadily destroying the Constitution so we, the individuals, will have no protection.
 
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