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Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials say

Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
Well, for one, they are sitting inside a tank with full body armor and military-grade weaponry, and he was a guy with no weapons at all.

The police showed up with a friggin tank to a report of a guy lying on the wrong lawn and started pelting him with non-lethal bullets. Their actions provoked this incident.

Had they just calmly walked up and spoken to him, no one would have been harmed. Had they let him go, no one would have been harmed. Had they let him pound his fists on the side of the tank, no one would have been harmed.

Do you really believe they had to shoot him? Because THAT should be the standard: "I had no other choice." Anything less than that is unacceptable in a free society.
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You seem to be ignoring the fact that the cops were responding to a call about a suspect you carjacked someone at gunpoint and shot at cops. Yes, they were engaging the wrong guy but their mindset was one of addressing and imminent threat.

There is a big difference in the way cops (or anyone else) responds to the threat of "someone laying on the ground" and "someone was shooting at someone else and is in this neighborhood".

I'm all about de-escalating situations but that's a two way street and requires the participation of the suspect. Cops don't always get that cooperation.

When a cop says, "Hey! Come over here and show me your ID." and your response is, "I don't have to." it's YOU that is escalating the situation, not the cop.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

faithful_servant said:
Without having ALL the facts, it's hard to decide. That's the other part of the problem you're facing - you're making a decision about whether the shooting should have occurred without ALL of the facts. I don't have them, so I'm not qualified to determine what should happen. The fact that he has no criminal record is irrelevant and until conviction, everyone is innocent, so that's irrelevant as well.
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The shooting should not have occurred. We can't allow citizens to be gunned down based on imagined hypotheticals.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

Lutherf said:
You seem to be ignoring the fact that the cops were responding to a call about a suspect you carjacked someone at gunpoint and shot at cops. Yes, they were engaging the wrong guy but their mindset was one of addressing and imminent threat.

There is a big difference in the way cops (or anyone else) responds to the threat of "someone laying on the ground" and "someone was shooting at someone else and is in this neighborhood".

I'm all about de-escalating situations but that's a two way street and requires the participation of the suspect. Cops don't always get that cooperation.

When a cop says, "Hey! Come over here and show me your ID." and your response is, "I don't have to." it's YOU that is escalating the situation, not the cop.
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And yet, they killed the wrong man. So, what does justice look like in this case? Does this guy's life just not matter because someone else did something heinous? Is preserving this man's life just not a priority?
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

Lutherf said:
When a cop says, "Hey! Come over here and show me your ID." and your response is, "I don't have to." it's YOU that is escalating the situation, not the cop.
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Yeah? I find that interesting. So when someone asks for something and I refuse I am escalating the situation? Hmmm...
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
And yet, they killed the wrong man. So, what does justice look like in this case? Does this guy's life just not matter because someone else did something heinous? Is preserving this man's life just not a priority?
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I wasn't there and haven't even seen pictures of the scene so I can't tell you what else could or should have been done. I can tell you that Monday morning quarterbacking these incidents is a hell of a lot easier than dealing with them in the moment.

My concern when reading your posts was that you completely ignored an important circumstance of the stop and I wanted to clarify the situation for anyone else who might be reading the thread.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

Lutherf said:
I wasn't there and haven't even seen pictures of the scene so I can't tell you what else could or should have been done. I can tell you that Monday morning quarterbacking these incidents is a hell of a lot easier than dealing with them in the moment.

My concern when reading your posts was that you completely ignored an important circumstance of the stop and I wanted to clarify the situation for anyone else who might be reading the thread.
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The dead man had nothing to do with the carjackings. He wasn't responsible. So, I ask again, what does justice look like for the dead man?
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials say

Obey or die. This needs to stop.

No one will be jailed over this. But protocols have to change. No more justifying deadly force based on the flawed perceptions of officers. These incidents give good cops a bad name and make ethical police work more difficult.
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From your article:

The announcement came a day after high-ranking sheriff’s officials met to review the shooting. Sheriff’s officials said Thompson was unarmed but did not follow deputies’ orders when they found him and may have reached for his waistband as he ran toward an armored vehicle. Deputies used less-lethal weapons as they tried to subdue him, but Thompson was shot when he charged toward them, officials said.

WTH?
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
The dead man had nothing to do with the carjackings. He wasn't responsible. So, I ask again, what does justice look like for the dead man?
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Lets see.... Charge police officers who are using less-then-lethal weapons.....

The less-then-lethal weapons DID NOT STOP HIM.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
The dead man had nothing to do with the carjackings. He wasn't responsible. So, I ask again, what does justice look like for the dead man?
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At this point it looks like the guy was the victim of multiple misunderstandings. From what's been posted it seems that the cops went to great lengths to NOT kill him but ended up doing so when he, also not understanding the situation, did something that was considered threatening.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
I've answered all your questions. Answer this. Did the police have to shoot this man in this case?
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If the police were in an armored vehicle, no. I already said that.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
Hindsight is what investigation is. If we applied the standards you're espousing, you could justify every drive-by shooting in the hood.

Put yourself in the shoes of the unarmed, confused, scared man. Or in the shoes of his grieving family.
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No, not every shooting could be justified. You have to prove that you had a reasonable fear for your life.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe -- can you answer my question now? Charging at a police officer IS a threat, no? i.e. Michael Brown
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
First, we change the standard for culpability. Justification for shootings should be based on the factual evidence in a case and not on the perceptions or mental state of the officer. Police should have to justify every bullet they fire based on an ACUTAL and not just perceived threat.

We need clear-cut guidelines on the deployment of armored vehicles and SWAT-style forces.

We need greater training emphasizing deescalation and empathy and not just officer safety.

And we need accountability when the wrong man gets gunned down.
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sorry...but hell no

we cant get officers to sign up now

you want to change the protocol to where their safety isnt PRIORITY # ONE?

do you realize what you are going to end up with as far as LE officers?

guys who would have been comfortable in the old west right along with Wyatt Earp

that is not the type of guys i want roaming our streets

you better rethink your position
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

Josie said:
GhostlyJoe -- can you answer my question now? Charging at a police officer IS a threat, no? i.e. Michael Brown
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Of course charging an officer is a threat. I agree. Although I still question the use of deadly force against an unarmed suspect, even if he's charging directly at an officer on foot. But I certainly recognize that sometimes deadly force is necessary. Should be a last resort.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

gdgyva said:
sorry...but hell no

we cant get officers to sign up now

you want to change the protocol to where their safety isnt PRIORITY # ONE?

do you realize what you are going to end up with as far as LE officers?

guys who would have been comfortable in the old west right along with Wyatt Earp

that is not the type of guys i want roaming our streets

you better rethink your position
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Citizens' safety is priority No. 1. Otherwise, why have police? This man's life matters, too.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
Citizens' safety is priority No. 1. Otherwise, why have police? This man's life matters, too.
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and listening to and obeying an officer of the law is common sense

he wouldnt listen

they tried non lethal force....it didnt work

he continued an aggressive charge....

lights out....the party's over

when an officer says get the **** down, and stay down....they usually mean it

not such a hard thing to understand and obey
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
Of course charging an officer is a threat. I agree. Although I still question the use of deadly force against an unarmed suspect, even if he's charging directly at an officer on foot. But I certainly recognize that sometimes deadly force is necessary. Should be a last resort.
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But - again - many times the officers DON'T KNOW if the person is armed or unarmed. If you're a police officer and someone is charging right at you, you have to make a split-second decision on what to do. You cannot pause time and take in your surroundings, consider the mental state of the person coming at you, looking around their body for signs of a weapon, etc. If you DO hesitate, you very likely will be dead.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

gdgyva said:
and listening to and obeying an officer of the law is common sense

he wouldnt listen

they tried non lethal force....it didnt work

he continued an aggressive charge....

lights out....the party's over

when an officer says get the **** down, and stay down....they usually mean it

not such a hard thing to understand and obey
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They were in a tank. He was a mentally handicapped man who was terrified. He did nothing to deserve execution, and he was in no way a deadly threat to those officers.

Do you honestly believe he could have harmed those officers?

"Obey or die" is the motto of an abusive police state, not a fee country.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

Josie said:
But - again - many times the officers DON'T KNOW if the person is armed or unarmed. If you're a police officer and someone is charging right at you, you have to make a split-second decision on what to do. You cannot pause time and take in your surroundings, consider the mental state of the person coming at you, looking around their body for signs of a weapon, etc. If you DO hesitate, you very likely will be dead.
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No one said being a police officer is easy. It's by it's very nature a dangerous job. That's why police officers are revered and recognized as heroic, because they choose to put their safety in jeopardy for the benefit of their society. Putting on the uniform is accepting a certain amount of personal risk. If officers' safety is given absolute preference over the rights of citizens, then we're not a free country. If the situation is ambiguous, they need to err on the side of not killing or find a new profession.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
We'll never know why he ran, because he's dead now. He was an unarmed, mentally handicapped man lying on a lawn. The police were inside an armored vehicle and had fired non-lethal projectiles at him. No doubt, he was running blindly, terrified for his life. That tends to happen when a military force descends on you without provocation. The inescapable fact is, this guy presented no credible threat to the police.

Like I said in the OP, protocols have to change — and soon. "Shoot first, ask questions later" doesn't cut it.
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Facts NOT in evidence! Seems to me that you have an anti-police agenda here.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
First, we change the standard for culpability. Justification for shootings should be based on the factual evidence in a case and not on the perceptions or mental state of the officer. Police should have to justify every bullet they fire based on an ACUTAL and not just perceived threat.

We need clear-cut guidelines on the deployment of armored vehicles and SWAT-style forces.

We need greater training emphasizing deescalation and empathy and not just officer safety.

And we need accountability when the wrong man gets gunned down.
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All that is already in place! The idea here is for the officer to finish his/her shift and go home to their family. Giving the suspect the edge is just plain stupid. People are supposed to obey the lawful commands of the police...it's quite simple.

You are also glossing over the threat to the public....not just the police.

If some kid is riding by on their bike and gets accosted by said perp, things can go sideways real quick.

How much police experience and training do you have?
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
Well, for one, they are sitting inside a tank with full body armor and military-grade weaponry, and he was a guy with no weapons at all.

The police showed up with a friggin tank to a report of a guy lying on the wrong lawn and started pelting him with non-lethal bullets. Their actions provoked this incident.

Had they just calmly walked up and spoken to him, no one would have been harmed. Had they let him go, no one would have been harmed. Had they let him pound his fists on the side of the tank, no one would have been harmed.

Do you really believe they had to shoot him? Because THAT should be the standard: "I had no other choice." Anything less than that is unacceptable in a free society.
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Number one....an armored personnel vehicle...IS NOT a tank.

Secondly...highlighted......................you don't know any of that, you are making up a story to fit your agenda!
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

faithful_servant said:
It has to be perceived threat, since demanding an actual threat puts officers into the position of having to allow a potential threat to continue just because they aren't 100% sure that the gun the perp. is waving around isn't a realistic toy.

"Why didn't you shoot that guy who pointing his gun at my daughter and threatening to shoot her?"
"Because I wasn't 100% sure that the gun was real, that it was loaded and that he was serious about his threat."
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And "we are sure sorry your daughter was killed while we evaluated the situation."
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

Josie said:
But - again - many times the officers DON'T KNOW if the person is armed or unarmed. If you're a police officer and someone is charging right at you, you have to make a split-second decision on what to do. You cannot pause time and take in your surroundings, consider the mental state of the person coming at you, looking around their body for signs of a weapon, etc. If you DO hesitate, you very likely will be dead.
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His position is that cops are expendable while criminals deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's a common theme these days.
 
Re: Man shot to death by L.A. County deputy was not a carjacking suspect, officials s

GhostlyJoe said:
An unarmed man is not a threat to a tank.

As for accountability, if you shoot an unarmed man based on mistaken identity, your career is over. Go become a carpenter.

This case doesn't seem to rise to the level of criminality, but if I were this guy's family member, I would want justice.
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I think you have created a good narrative here.....devoid of many facts.

GhostlyJoe said:
Anyone can have a weapon. Having a weapon is legal. Let's not create a standard where police are allowed to shoot anyone at any time because they MIGHT be armed.
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Having a weapon that is perceived to be legal, does not make it so.
 
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