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Can trans-genders cash in on set asides?

Southern Dad said:
No, I don't. I was offering an explanation of why she might be wanting to transitions back if it is true. It was part of the conversation. Again, it was just a possible explanation.
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You asked a question. That is more than a purported observation.
 
Ntharotep said:
Actually. I somewhat agree with his point here.
BUT...


...this level of added regulation is not likely to happen for the small number of abusers of this system.
The easiest answer to this would be an addendum to a business owner's BC so there is a one stop shop. Its the document that is already used with businesses to determine this sort of things when checking claims of small/woman owned business.
Anyone could request the addendum and then its less headache and might have other identification uses as well.
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Well, being able to legally claim gender identity is a requirement for quite a few things besides minority contracts. And we currently have gender legally ascertained by things like driver's licenses, state I.D's, passports, etc. - all of which are predicated upon one's birth certificate.

So as a general non-specific item, I think we need to extend this legal identification to the trans community, otherwise they will be left-out of full participation in their new identity.

So I'll stand by my statement declaring there's a need for an item to legally proclaim one's new legal gender after changing it.

FWIW, my state handles this by allowing a trans-gendered individual to add a modifier to their birth certificate, and requires the individual to have completed their physical gender reassignment, as well as having them provide the documentation from the performing doc that generated the completion documentation, along with an additional certification of completed physical change by a stateside doc if the change was performed outside the country.
 
radcen said:
Unfortunately, too often too many of our rules and laws are passed precisely based on uncommon exceptions to a given general rule. Frustrates the hell out of me.

General comment, applies elsewhere as well as here.
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Agree 100%.
 
radcen said:
I honestly see no contradiction. I see no reason why a heterosexual male cannot also want to be a woman, yet still be attracted to women. Gender identity and sexual attraction are two wholly separate issues, IMO.
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And your opinion is also definitive. One's gender and one's sexual orientation are mutually exclusive.
 
Zyphlin said:
Cut due to character limit.
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In my state, if you have a service animal outside the home, that animal (if possible) MUST wear a red vest with a placard identifying them as a service animal. If that is not possible for whatever reason, the individual holds onto the placard in case they are asked or need to show it in order for the animal to be allowed in a place where animals aren't, normally.

I'm not sure that there is any similar procedure that could be used with transsexuals. A placard? That reminds me of the stars placed on the clothing of Jews in concentration camps. Carrying some sort of documentation? Problem with that is the potential for discrimination. When a transsexual has their name legally changed, all documentation of their old name is destroyed. That way, if it is investigated, the person cannot be identified as transsexual which could lead to them be discriminated, something that DOES happen. Being "outed" can be dangerous for some transsexuals; there is a list of transsexuals who were assaulted or worse when they were outed. Now, is this common? No, but it is a concern. That's another problem I have with this entire issue being presented as it is. Neither side, conservatives or liberals are doing the transsexual community any favors at all. This is a community of people who, in general, just want to blend in. That's their greatest wish and triumph. All this idiotic handwringing over something that has NEVER been an issue in regards to transsexuals has done nothing but make them a focal point, the last thing most want. I know that my clients are certainly struggling because of all this stupidity.

I would not support any type of documentation that a transsexual could present, proving this. The best way to manage a situation would be to ask... is the individual in the bathroom for some illegal reason, or are they there to use the bathroom?
 
Zyphlin said:
Again, this is where I think it depends ENTIRELY on how broadly the law is written.

If a law is written in terms of anti-discrimination that spells out that "gender identity" or "transgenderism" relates specifically to those who have been clinically diagnosed and are undergoing, or have completely undergoing, active steps to transition their gender then I think the potential for fraud is ridiculously small and thus easy to overlook as a troubling aspect.

However, when the law is written in extremely broad fashion, with little true definition of what serves as "gender identity" or "gender expression", with no guidelines on the length that such things must be occurring, what manner or burden of proof is required, etc...then I think the potential for fraud is far broader and is at least worthy of looking at, while not necessarily serving as a defacto automatic "shut down" of a conversation.

Take for instance handicapped parking as an example here....

There are clear designators for our cars as to whether the individual is handicapped. There is clear codified methods to determine if and when someone should be given such identification and status. While there are broad ways of being designated handicapped, there is specific guidelines or requirements to be identified within those broad categories. And in all those instance, it is requiring a professional 3rd party opinion to make that determination. While there is still "fraud" that occurs, both in terms of people fraudulently using identification wrongfully or just ignoring the need for identification all together, overall because of the system in place such fraud is limited and relatively easily identifiable and combatted.

However, if the law basically stated that if you feel like you're handicapped, then you're handicapped, and you must be treated as such...then the potential for fraud would expand greatly. Suddenly an overweight person could simply feel like they're "handicapped" and shouldn't have to walk as far in a parking lot, so they park there. Suddenly a person who woke up with a sore knee could decide to park there. Or suddenly someone looking to get one over on the system could park there simply because it's closer, and then just put on a little bit of a limp or even just claim they have a handicap that is not outwardly noticeable, because they knew there'd be no real way to prove them wrong easily and thus it'd be highly unlikely there'd be any negative to do it.

Clearly defined parameters and methods for making determinations of these things, outside of ones personal FEELINGS, is necessary with these kind of things.
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I can pretty much agree with this post. I absolutely DETEST the "if you feel like a man/women" thing. It's insulting to transsexuals. And I'm not 100% sure, but it seems to me that it was Target and liberals that seem to be promoting the gender identity=how you feel at the moment position. This is a GROSS over reaction to the conservative position that gender is set in concrete, which is also idiotic. There need to be parameters, reasonable and intelligent ones, ones based on research and assessment. When this happens, the potential for fraud is practically nil.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I'm not sure that there is any similar procedure that could be used with transsexuals.
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I don't think there needs to be a direct analog to service animals or the handicapped or other such things. More, I was speaking to the notion that it's not unreasonable that people who, due to various circumstances, require some sort of special consideration from the general public may be expected in some instances to legitimately provide evidence that they are legitimate gaining that special consideration...and that it's reasonable that sometimes people may question if someone is undergoing that special consideration correctly.

I would not support any type of documentation that a transsexual could present, proving this. The best way to manage a situation would be to ask... is the individual in the bathroom for some illegal reason, or are they there to use the bathroom?
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I would support a law (if it is not present already), that if a person fully undergoes treatment for gender reassignment, be it through surgery, through medical, or if feasible simply through therapy and is actively living as the new gender, that they should be able to change official documentation...such as a license...to match their new gender. At which point they wouldn't be showing any sort of "special documentation"; if an authority figure spoke to them because there was a complaint that there may be someone wrongfully in the bathroom, they'd simply show a means of identification that practically everyone carries and would not in any way identify them as "transgendered".

In situations where they haven't completed the transition, but are in a place physically and mentally where they feel they can conceivably be living as the other gender, then the few instances where perhaps someone reports feeling uncomfortable to an authority figure, and that figure looks into it, then it may be the need to simply provide evidence at a later date if there's some kind of further action undertaken.

As we discussed in another thread, the reality of the situation is that most people legitimately going through such a transition is likely not using a bathroom when there's a good chance that someone people are going to view them as the sex that isn't associated with that bathroom. I just think there's definitely a balance here between the comfort and needs of all sides, and there's some simple type of solutions and ideas that can be done to deal with some of the hiccups.

And I agree with you that neither side is largely doing either a favor. Both sides I think are largely playing up situations and instances that are rare or far out of the norm even with regards to this subset of the population. As is the case with a lot of things on both sides of the aisle, there's this notion recently that ones own choice and ones "rights" are so absolute and so important that not only should you be able to exercise them, but you should do so in as brazen, in your face, and over the top of a manner as possible to try and make some social statement. A great example of this on the right are the various demonstrations and singular actions of trying to "make a point" by open carrying. These kind of things rarely help situation and actually tend to make it more difficult for those that have been undertaking the given action for years in a non-agenda driven way.
 
Zyphlin said:
I don't think there needs to be a direct analog to service animals or the handicapped or other such things. More, I was speaking to the notion that it's not unreasonable that people who, due to various circumstances, require some sort of special consideration from the general public may be expected in some instances to legitimately provide evidence that they are legitimate gaining that special consideration...and that it's reasonable that sometimes people may question if someone is undergoing that special consideration correctly.
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I can understand how something that appears out of the norm might want/need to be checked out or questioned.

I would support a law (if it is not present already), that if a person fully undergoes treatment for gender reassignment, be it through surgery, through medical, or if feasible simply through therapy and is actively living as the new gender, that they should be able to change official documentation...such as a license...to match their new gender. At which point they wouldn't be showing any sort of "special documentation"; if an authority figure spoke to them because there was a complaint that there may be someone wrongfully in the bathroom, they'd simply show a means of identification that practically everyone carries and would not in any way identify them as "transgendered".
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One issue with this is that it varies from state to state. I posted these differentiations a while back. There are actually 3 states in the US that, even if you have surgery and have documentation, you may NOT alter your gender marker. One state, Tennessee, SPECIFICALLY prohibits it for transsexuals. However, in most states, altering one's gender marker on their license requires a letter from a therapist, affirming that the individual is transsexual, the length of time of which they have been working together, and some documentation about the therapist. I have written numerous letters like this.

In situations where they haven't completed the transition, but are in a place physically and mentally where they feel they can conceivably be living as the other gender, then the few instances where perhaps someone reports feeling uncomfortable to an authority figure, and that figure looks into it, then it may be the need to simply provide evidence at a later date if there's some kind of further action undertaken.
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This would be an extrordinarily rare situation. Transsexuals, in general, don't use public restrooms of the gender of which they identify unless the feel they can reasonably present as that gender. In my experience, transsexuals are extremely self-critical on this aspect, mostly due to the inconsistency they constantly feel. Therefore, it is most likely that an individual wouldn't be using that bathroom unless they would go unnoticed. As far as someone reporting that they feel uncomfortable, the only thing the authority should be checking out is if the person accused was doing anything to violate the law... peeping or something like that.

As we discussed in another thread, the reality of the situation is that most people legitimately going through such a transition is likely not using a bathroom when there's a good chance that someone people are going to view them as the sex that isn't associated with that bathroom. I just think there's definitely a balance here between the comfort and needs of all sides, and there's some simple type of solutions and ideas that can be done to deal with some of the hiccups.
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I would agree, but "outing" someone is potentially discriminatory and dangerous. I would be very cautious around how situations are handled. I would tend to go the "illegal" route. Is the individual doing something illegal, or are they just relieving themselves?

And I agree with you that neither side is largely doing either a favor. Both sides I think are largely playing up situations and instances that are rare or far out of the norm even with regards to this subset of the population. As is the case with a lot of things on both sides of the aisle, there's this notion recently that ones own choice and ones "rights" are so absolute and so important that not only should you be able to exercise them, but you should do so in as brazen, in your face, and over the top of a manner as possible to try and make some social statement. A great example of this on the right are the various demonstrations and singular actions of trying to "make a point" by open carrying. These kind of things rarely help situation and actually tend to make it more difficult for those that have been undertaking the given action for years in a non-agenda driven way.
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I agree. You see it on both sides. The stupid laws, Target's stupid announcement, things like that. People tend to use the fallacy of arguing from the exception. I don't know about you, but in all the years I've used public bathrooms, I've never encountered an issue.
 
TheGoverness said:
That's not even how trans people work, dude. They don't just fluctuate constantly between what gender they choose to identify as.
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They don't.

But with no real system in place to ensure someone who is "identifying" actually suffers from gender dysphoria.... you are looking at alot of people pulling off scams.
 
Chomsky said:
Please tell me you're being facetious?

If not, I'll reply by saying we currently have legal gender identity, and if we insist on giving gender benefits and other preferential gender treatment, we're going to have to find some way to nail down identity for legal purposes.
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I know a really good way we can do that.

What gender are you by birth?
 
TheGoverness said:
That's not even how trans people work, dude. They don't just fluctuate constantly between what gender they choose to identify as.
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I agree with this, as far as it's stated. But, you're talking about true trans people. There are indeed people in the world who will use anything they can to take advantage and/or be outright dishonest. If claiming to be trans is an easy means to their end, as that's the new "opportunity" placed before them, they'll do it. Reason they haven't done it before now, is that being trans wasn't an easy means to their end.
 
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VanceMack said:
Here you go brother...I mean sister....'find' yourself.

Agender
Androgyne
Androgynous
Bigender
Cis
Cisgender
Cis Female
Cis Male
Cis Man
Cis Woman
Cisgender Female
Cisgender Male
Cisgender Man
Cisgender Woman
Female to Male
FTM
Gender Fluid
Gender Nonconforming
Gender Questioning
Gender Variant
Genderqueer
Intersex
Male to Female
MTF
Neither
Neutrois
Non-binary
Other
Pangender
Trans
Trans*
Trans Female
Trans* Female
Trans Male
Trans* Male
Trans Man
Trans* Man
Trans Person
Trans* Person
Trans Woman
Trans* Woman
Transfeminine
Transgender
Transgender Female
Transgender Male
Transgender Man
Transgender Person
Transgender Woman
Transmasculine
Transsexual
Transsexual Female
Transsexual Male
Transsexual Man
Transsexual Person
Transsexual Woman
Two-Spirit


And thats providing your confusion might be related to your gender. You sure you arent a cat? Or maybe a snow leopard? Or a displaced gnome? Dont worry...we wont judge you. Hell...I cant judge you...I'm a polar bear.

;)
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What about Trans-Fat ?
 
Caine said:
They don't.

But with no real system in place to ensure someone who is "identifying" actually suffers from gender dysphoria.... you are looking at alot of people pulling off scams.
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And there are already laws on the books to deal with people who try to pull of these scams.
 
Caine said:
They don't.

But with no real system in place to ensure someone who is "identifying" actually suffers from gender dysphoria.... you are looking at alot of people pulling off scams.
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People pull off scams all the time. Remove gender/sex based incentive programs if people fear it is that likely to actually occur.

Heck a woman lived as a man for decades after fighting in the revolutionary war, up til the point where she was too old to do stuff on her own. (Don't know if she considered herself a man, although it is likely after that long living as one, or simply wanted to continue to receive the pension.)
 
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