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America Was Founded on Secrets and Lies.

Frank Apisa

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An interesting article from Foreign Policy Magazine by columnist, Stephen F. Knott.


"With all due respect to early-American hagiographer Parson Weems, George Washington knew how to tell a lie. In fact, he told a lot of them. Moreover, talent for deception was shared by James Madison and Thomas Jefferson, all of whom, to borrow from former Vice President Dick Cheney, worked the “dark side.” And though these Founding Fathers’ knack for the shadows may cut against the image of modern-day saints that has grown up around them, it is difficult to see the American Revolution succeeding without it."


It is a truly interesting read...and kinda off-beat.

Take a look.

America Was Founded on Secrets and Lies | Foreign Policy
 


There's some swear words in this, but it's also hilarious.
 
I didn't click the link. Maybe it is interesting... maybe there is some truth in it.



I'm just weary of all the "deconstructing" of the Founders and founding of the nation that has come to be so ubiquitous since I came of age.


Myths they may be, in part at least... but once we've destroyed all our founding myths and laid bare all our Founder's flaws and failings, what do we have left to stand on?


Frankly I think we were better off when we believed Washington could not tell a lie, and Jefferson was all about freedom. It set a standard which, even if partly mythical, inspired us to strive for more than just the mundane abuses of power we now live with every day.
 
“laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger,” overrode traditional standards of conduct or any written law. TJ

Not a country formed on this planet that didn't do the same. [least ones that lasted for any time at all]
 
I didn't click the link. Maybe it is interesting... maybe there is some truth in it.



I'm just weary of all the "deconstructing" of the Founders and founding of the nation that has come to be so ubiquitous since I came of age.


Myths they may be, in part at least... but once we've destroyed all our founding myths and laid bare all our Founder's flaws and failings, what do we have left to stand on?


Frankly I think we were better off when we believed Washington could not tell a lie, and Jefferson was all about freedom. It set a standard which, even if partly mythical, inspired us to strive for more than just the mundane abuses of power we now live with every day.

I know; understand; and agree with what you are saying, Goshin.

But this article is a bit different. It does not diss any of the founding fathers...it just explains that the exigencies of government and governance...requires (shall we say) that an omelet be made. And you know what you gotta do to make an omelet.

If you get a chance...take a look. If not...cool. I'm with you on your concerns.
 
“laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger,” overrode traditional standards of conduct or any written law. TJ

Not a country formed on this planet that didn't do the same. [least ones that lasted for any time at all]

Absolutely, WCH.

Something we have to keep in mind.
 
I know; understand; and agree with what you are saying, Goshin.

But this article is a bit different. It does not diss any of the founding fathers...it just explains that the exigencies of government and governance...requires (shall we say) that an omelet be made. And you know what you gotta do to make an omelet.

If you get a chance...take a look. If not...cool. I'm with you on your concerns.


Ok, I read it.

I see the point. Frankly I would have been surprised if there were no intelligence operations during the war.


I kind of disagree with the conclusions though: namely that Washington and Jefferson would be ok with the wholesale peeping that the current DHS establishment wishes to engage in. Peeping known enemies is one thing; peeping everyone in hopes of gleaning something from one of millions of emails is a different matter IMHO, and too readily subject to abuse.
 
I'm just weary of all the "deconstructing" of the Founders and founding of the nation that has come to be so ubiquitous since I came of age. Myths they may be, in part at least... but once we've destroyed all our founding myths and laid bare all our Founder's flaws and failings, what do we have left to stand on?

i think thats what they want. if enough people believe its a rotten country then they can get "change" like dissolving the southern border. maybe north american union is next and then one world govt. if people were still proud of this country then they might fight that outcome.
 


There's some swear words in this, but it's also hilarious.


Trevor Moore is hilarious... I have been watching more. Thanks... :lol:
 
I didn't click the link. Maybe it is interesting... maybe there is some truth in it.

I'm just weary of all the "deconstructing" of the Founders and founding of the nation that has come to be so ubiquitous since I came of age.

Myths they may be, in part at least... but once we've destroyed all our founding myths and laid bare all our Founder's flaws and failings, what do we have left to stand on?

Frankly I think we were better off when we believed Washington could not tell a lie, and Jefferson was all about freedom. It set a standard which, even if partly mythical, inspired us to strive for more than just the mundane abuses of power we now live with every day.

Inspire us to strive? How so?

The morality of the average American Joe in 2016 blows all of the of Founders out of the water. Average American Joe would be appalled by many the things they thought -- and that's just going by what everyone already knows and accepts unequivocally to be true.

In what way is that not great? That humans are capable of so much growth that even the average person of 2016 is a better human being than the some of the higher ranks of 1776? They didn't get that way by being all hunky dory about the founder's flawed morality. They got that way by deciding it wasn't good enough.

Mundane abuses of power we live with today? Have you forgotten that Adams, not only a founder, but our only second president, signed the Aliens and Sedition Act? In what way is suspending the first amendment and imprisoning people for speech critical of the government not a mundane abuse of power?

This is not new, and hiding our founder's flaws has done nothing but enable us to keep blindly making the same mistakes.

This has been happening since the beginning. Not just of America, but of time. And putting mere mortals above any criticism only allows it to continue to happen with greater frequency than it has to. Criticism is how one improves. If everything was already perfect from the start, why bother?

There is no such thing as being inspired by the past. If you don't think the future can be better, what is there to strive for? If you'd rather white wash the reality of the founders so you can simply feel good about how things are or were, than think of how we could improve upon their foundation, then what is the end game?

What would it harm us to humanize our self-made deities and observe them for historicity and perhaps... avoiding some of their mistakes?

Perhaps more importantly, what good has it done us to lie to ourselves about what they are or what America itself is, as though we're trying to claim America is actually is god-chosen country, anointed by the demi-god aristocrats of the New World?

What good has it done us to congratulate ourselves for a fictionalized vision of the figments of our past and allow our problems to fester away unaddressed?

Is America still on the incline, in your eyes? Are we getting better, as health, education, crime, and poverty continue to worsen?

How has deifying long-dead aristocrats actually helped America become a better nation?

In what way are we better off believing the founders were gods above reproach and not men who were a mixed bag of qualities?

I think, if you'd like America to be better, perhaps avoiding what has gone wrong is a poor approach.
 
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aside the few obvious examples, i doubt it

i thought you location is London?

Really? Does Average American Joe believe the poor and women shouldn't have any input into democracy, and that black people aren't entirely human? I mean, those are just the most obvious examples that everyone knows. If we want to get more nuanced, I could go on for pages. While it's true not all of them really believed strongly in those things, they did believe, at the very least, that they weren't worth fighting for.

Is Average American Joe in 2016 not a better human being than that?

'Tis. I'm an expat, from Minnesota.
 
Inspire us to strive? How so?

The morality of the average American Joe in 2016 blows all of the of Founders out of the water. Average American Joe would be appalled by many the things they thought -- and that's just going by what everyone already knows and accepts unequivocally to be true.

In what way is that not great? That humans are capable of so much growth that even the average person of 2016 is a better human being than the some of the higher ranks of 1776?

Mundane abuses of power we live with today? Have you forgotten that Adams, not only a founder, but our only second president, signed the Aliens and Sedition Act? In what way is suspending the first amendment and imprisoning people for speech critical of the government not a mundane abuse of power?

This is not new, and hiding our founder's flaws has done nothing but enable us to keep blindly making the same mistakes.

This has been happening since the beginning. Not just of America, but of time. And putting mere mortals above any criticism only allows it to continue to happen with greater frequency than it has to. Criticism is how one improves. If everything was already perfect from the start, why bother?

There is no such thing as being inspired by the past. If you don't think the future can be better, what is there to strive for? If you'd rather white wash the reality of the founders so you can simply feel good about how things are or were, than think of how we could improve upon their foundation, then what is the end game?

What would it harm us to humanize our self-made deities and observe them for historicity and perhaps... avoiding some of their mistakes?

Perhaps more importantly, what good has it done us to lie to ourselves about what they are or what America itself is, as though we're trying to claim America is actually is god-chosen country, anointed by demi-god aristocrats of the new world?

What good has it done us to congratulate ourselves for a a fictionalized vision of the figments of our past and allow our problems to fester away unaddressed?

Is America still on the incline, in your eyes? Are we getting better, as health, education, crime, and poverty continue to worsen?

How has deifying long-dead aristocrats actually helped America become a better nation?

In what way are we better off believing the founders were gods above reproach and not men capability of being teachable moments?

I think, if you'd like America to be better, perhaps avoiding what has gone wrong is a poor approach.




I'm trying to think of a more polite, less condescending way of saying "You're too young to understand."


I don't mean that you are inadequate in any way. I mean you came along AFTER this deconstruction was in full swing and the mythos of America's Founding were already much in disrepute.

I grew up during the transition. The trashing of the founding myths and the founders themselves was something that hadn't "caught on" locally until I was about college age. It was still highly controversial at the time.


The deconstruction was already widely accepted when you came along. This accounts for our difference in perspective to a large degree.



Are we really so much better in all ways than they?

Perhaps, if you accept that the modern standards of moral and ethical are the pinnacle of human achievement. I'm not so sure. In 200 years how will the people of that time look back on us? Will they see us as barbaric brutes for some aspect of life that is now considered business-as-usual? Is it fair to compare one age to another without taking into account the difference in times and norms?


Does addressing the Founder's faults make things one whit better today? I doubt it.
 
really if you wanted to destroy any hagiography of washington or jefferson, you could just point out they had slaves. There's no need to accuse them of being what they plainly were - politicians. Of *course* they lied and swindled
 
I didn't click the link. Maybe it is interesting... maybe there is some truth in it.

I'm just weary of all the "deconstructing" of the Founders and founding of the nation that has come to be so ubiquitous since I came of age.

Myths they may be, in part at least... but once we've destroyed all our founding myths and laid bare all our Founder's flaws and failings, what do we have left to stand on?

Frankly I think we were better off when we believed Washington could not tell a lie, and Jefferson was all about freedom. It set a standard which, even if partly mythical, inspired us to strive for more than just the mundane abuses of power we now live with every day.

Sounds a bit too North Korea for me.

They believe their deceased leaders held fabled qualities too.

Accepting that great men and women were great men and women because of their humanity rather than in spite of it will give us the necessary belief to go on and do even greater things. It allows us to emulate them. Otherwise what you expect a mere human to do in the wake of a god.
 
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I'm trying to think of a more polite, less condescending way of saying "You're too young to understand."


I don't mean that you are inadequate in any way. I mean you came along AFTER this deconstruction was in full swing and the mythos of America's Founding were already much in disrepute.

I grew up during the transition. The trashing of the founding myths and the founders themselves was something that hadn't "caught on" locally until I was about college age. It was still highly controversial at the time.


The deconstruction was already widely accepted when you came along. This accounts for our difference in perspective to a large degree.



Are we really so much better in all ways than they?

Perhaps, if you accept that the modern standards of moral and ethical are the pinnacle of human achievement. I'm not so sure. In 200 years how will the people of that time look back on us? Will they see us as barbaric brutes for some aspect of life that is now considered business-as-usual? Is it fair to compare one age to another without taking into account the difference in times and norms?


Does addressing the Founder's faults make things one whit better today? I doubt it.

problem is there's always a path to go against the grain. In 200 years, every cause of every human behavior will likely be known down to the brain wave. Yet even today, there are some who oppose punitive means of dealing with crime and consider our prison system completely barbaric.

200 years ago, there was a large anti slavery movement and yes, some even supported rights for women. So it's not so easy to excuse 18th century barbarity in all respects. Would i expect them to have such a finely tuned grasp of epigenetics? Of course not. Do i expect them to have more humanity than to condone slavery? Absolutely, especially when "leaders" like the founders are supposed to be the best among us. They simply failed, and their failure led directly to the civil war
 
Really? Does Average American Joe believe the poor and women shouldn't have any input into democracy, and that black people aren't entirely human? I mean, those are just the most obvious examples that everyone knows.
yeah, aside the few obvious examples

Is Average American Joe in 2016 not a better human being than that?
im not always sure. i see a lot of self-centered people concerned about sports and looking good and the kardashians, etc but maybe thats the way the rest of the world is too now.

you might be correct though and maybe its easier (for me) to fall into a pessimistic way of looking at things
 
I'm trying to think of a more polite, less condescending way of saying "You're too young to understand."

I don't mean that you are inadequate in any way. I mean you came along AFTER this deconstruction was in full swing and the mythos of America's Founding were already much in disrepute.

I grew up during the transition. The trashing of the founding myths and the founders themselves was something that hadn't "caught on" locally until I was about college age. It was still highly controversial at the time.

The deconstruction was already widely accepted when you came along. This accounts for our difference in perspective to a large degree.

Are we really so much better in all ways than they?

Perhaps, if you accept that the modern standards of moral and ethical are the pinnacle of human achievement. I'm not so sure. In 200 years how will the people of that time look back on us? Will they see us as barbaric brutes for some aspect of life that is now considered business-as-usual? Is it fair to compare one age to another without taking into account the difference in times and norms?

Does addressing the Founder's faults make things one whit better today? I doubt it.

Am I? Odd, that... I grew up with this way of thinking -- one of the things I decided to keep -- by someone older than you. Someone who brought about the change you lived through, because they were tired of watching the stagnation and the harm it was causing, still used as an excuse not to examine things that were clearly wrong.

And you know, it still hasn't entire caught on. Not beyond acknowledging the things that are just too painfully obvious to deny anymore (see my post to lb_on_teh_cb above). Short story time...

I was a frustrating student. High potential, unpredictable performance. I had a history teacher -- also much older than you -- who decided to, shall we say, break the law of the land a little bit, to try to get me more engaged.

He had no choice over what book he was teaching. That was decided at by the College Board institution, due to it being an AP class. The chapters pertaining to the founders were all quite shallow, because they have to be in order to keep the illusion of their demagoguery alive. The educational institution of the nation decided that was what it wanted to do.

So, clearly, your opinion is alive and well still.

One day he kept me after class, and slipped me a different book in much the same way a spy might slip someone a brief. He told me I couldn't tell anyone -- he would get in all kinds of trouble with the board, tenured or not.

And there I found an actually engaging, meaningful representation of history... which, of course, meant by necessity that the founders (and many other American saints and sinners) looked much more human. Not that I didn't sort of already know that, being the autodidactic type, but it was nice to see a bigger picture of it.

Am I too young to understand your perspective? I don't think that's quite it. I understand it. I just have decided it doesn't work and impedes our betterment. It's not only we youngin's who think so. I was an onery child, and I dropped much of what I was taught, at one point or another, just to try new things on. That is one thing I always kept because I simply have never seen anything good come out of the reverse.

Criticism is patriotic. Criticism means you think there is still more potential. Having no criticism implies that you don't.

Are we better than they were? Unquestionably. What is politics if not the application of ethics to reality? In every single way that you could possibly measure human well-being, behavior, and quality of life, things have improved overall. All of them. How are we not better?

How is it possible to make things better if you are not willing to criticize the present and past? What is it to make things better, than to FIX flaws in your present and past?

If they were perfect demi-gods and put together a perfect anointed union, what is there to fix?

What is wrong with Adams destroying the first amendment within 20 years from the country's birth?

I mean, he was a founder, wasn't he?

I certainly hope they see us as barbaric, 200 years from now. I hope they will understand us in the context of our time, as I do our founders -- it's not comparative, just historical fact. I am better, and so are you, but they were not bad. They were better than the majority of what came before, after all. That's all that truly matters.

But yes, I do hope future people will see our behavior -- my behavior -- as rather unevolved.

Because that will mean we've gotten better still. That will mean people today decided to fix things that were broken. Just like the generation after the founders decided to fix the things they did wrong, etc, etc, etc.

The only useful inspiration that comes from the past is the inspiration to be better in the future.
 
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