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A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because she

Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Paleocon said:
Does not follow.
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Sure it does.

No, every one of your posts has asserted that there should only two categories regarding competency
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No, my posts have asserted there ARE only two categories, minor and adult. And if we claim they are minors for things like buying cigarettes, then they are minors for crimes also. And my posts have asserted have disgusting this is.

There are only two categories under law and you're either a minor or your an adult...unless we want to punish you.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

CanadaJohn said:
As a Canadian, and one who is no softy on crime, I find it appalling that an 11 year old CHILD would be tried for such a crime let alone be tried as an adult. No 11 year old has the capacity or the facility to commit such a crime without the utter negligence of his/her parents and the utter failure of the parents to teach their child basic decency and the basics of right and wrong. I'd love to see the parents of this 11 year old boy tried for the killing.

Here in Canada, it is not even legally possible for a child 14 or under to be tried or sentenced as an adult and only recently has our legislation changed to even allow 10 and 11 year old children to be charged with a crime under our Young Offenders legislation.

Personally, I do not support destroying the potential life of a person so young for a mistake of emotion or lacking in comprehension of the consequences. Charge and convict the real problem - absentee and irresponsible parents.
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So instead of punishing the offender, you wish to punish his parents?

To my knowledge, there's no law in Tennessee which prohibits allowing an 11 year old unsupervised access to a gun.

Slyfox696 said:
Sure it does.

No, my posts have asserted there ARE only two categories, minor and adult. And if we claim they are minors for things like buying cigarettes, then they are minors for crimes also. And my posts have asserted have disgusting this is.

There are only two categories under law and you're either a minor or your an adult...unless we want to punish you.
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Since you are the one arguing against the current state of the law, it is obvious that your assertion is incorrect, the law does in fact treat older children different from younger children.

So again, you haven't made any arguments for why there should be only two categories.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

CanadaJohn said:
As a Canadian, and one who is no softy on crime, I find it appalling that an 11 year old CHILD would be tried for such a crime let alone be tried as an adult. No 11 year old has the capacity or the facility to commit such a crime without the utter negligence of his/her parents and the utter failure of the parents to teach their child basic decency and the basics of right and wrong. I'd love to see the parents of this 11 year old boy tried for the killing.

Here in Canada, it is not even legally possible for a child 14 or under to be tried or sentenced as an adult and only recently has our legislation changed to even allow 10 and 11 year old children to be charged with a crime under our Young Offenders legislation.

Personally, I do not support destroying the potential life of a person so young for a mistake of emotion or lacking in comprehension of the consequences. Charge and convict the real problem - absentee and irresponsible parents.
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We have some really nasty 14 year olds. But under 14 I would agree with you on.

When tried as an adult, they normally always get prison sentences.

I know of no instance where the USA has executed a child under 18.

Heck it takes 20 years for appeals to run, so 40 is usually the youngest.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Captain Adverse said:
Yes. If the crime is considered particularly heinous, and the child involved determined to be cognizant of the nature of his actions, then the court may elect to try the juvenile as an adult. It is also possible that if after a psychological evaluation the child is determined to be either a psychopath or sociopath, he can be declared incompetent and sent to a psychiatric facility for an indefinite stay.
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a correct statement of the law
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Gun culture has to be arrested and charged in court. Not the poor 11 year old kid.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Paleocon said:
So instead of punishing the offender, you wish to punish his parents?

To my knowledge, there's no law in Tennessee which prohibits allowing an 11 year old unsupervised access to a gun.
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In my view, the offender or offenders are the parents. Only a complete idiot or someone who doesn't give a **** because they're drunk or drugged up leaves an 11 year old with a loaded gun. The proper punishment, in my view, would have been if the 11 year old had shot his parents for the crappy way they raised him.

You'd have to prove to me that Tennessee has no laws or regulations regarding the safe storage and security of firearms. I don't believe for a minute that Tennessee condones loaded guns being left around the house with unsupervised 11 year olds having access to them. I refuse to believe that any jurisdiction is that bat**** crazy.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

I'm always conflicted on cases like this. On one hand, I think it's a horrible double standard to punish children as adults when they enjoy none of the benefits of adulthood.

On the other hand, the juvenile justice system isn't designed to handle serious crimes like murder.

Best case scenario would probably be an indefinite stay in a mental hospital. Sounds like the kid certainly needs it.

And prison for the parents of course.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Paleocon said:
Since you are the one arguing against the current state of the law, it is obvious that your assertion is incorrect
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Obviously it's not and that is WHY I'm arguing against the current state of the law.

It's like you don't even read to what you respond.

So again, you haven't made any arguments for why there should be only two categories.
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Because I haven't said there should only be two categories. I said the ridiculous double standard in this country where a child is always a minor, unless we want to punish him/her, is awful.

Please learn to read what I type before you respond. Thanks.
 
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Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Riveroaks said:
The most notorious killer-child case that I can recall was an English girl who killed little boys in her neighborhood. Yuk !!
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No, this is the most infamous case of child killers in the UK.

The Bulger Case
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Grand Mal said:
This struck me as odd...
"... the judge may decide whether he should be tried as a juvenile or as an adult."
An 11-year-old? That's a possibility?
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11 year old children should never be tried as an adult iMHO, if someone is too immature to drink before the age of 21, how on earth are they adult enough to understand the finality of the end of life? How are they adult enough to understand the concept of murder and the legal process.

Sure, he deserves some punishment but not as an adult IMO.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Peter King said:
11 year old children should never be tried as an adult iMHO, if someone is too immature to drink before the age of 21, how on earth are they adult enough to understand the finality of the end of life? How are they adult enough to understand the concept of murder and the legal process.

Sure, he deserves some punishment but not as an adult IMO.
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more likely he needs to be removed from an horrendously bad environment
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Paleocon said:
Some statements don't require debate. The idea that 11 year olds don't know that death is permanent is a pretty ridiculous assertion.
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Really? So if you are 10 or 11 and always been told that death is not final by your reverend/preacher and that Jesus got up from the dead and went on living, why should a child think that death is final.

Young children do have issues with the finality of life, 11 year old children may have a better understanding but that is not absolute. Also, children who have developmental issues may be 11 in years but not as developed as a 8 year old. We do not know any specifics of this case so to say without any exemptions that all 11 year old's understand the concept of the finality of life is a bit over simplistic.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Parents should see some jail cell as well.


Sure, you could say that maybe these people had taught their kid to shoot...My dad taught me to shoot. I learned on a .22 rifle, best gun in the world, IMO. I think I was around that age, 10, 11, 12 maybe.

Ain't like I had the thing laying in my closet next to my pump action BB gun. Access was restricted. I don't care WHAT sort of backwater, back woods place to come from, you DON'T LET YOUR KIDS HAVE GUNS WITHOUT YOURSELF OR ANOTHER ADULT PRESENT.

If you can't realize that, you should not have procreated. Parents need to get some jail time for this.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Slyfox696 said:
Because I haven't said there should only be two categories. I said the ridiculous double standard in this country where a child is always a minor, unless we want to punish him/her, is awful.

Please learn to read what I type before you respond. Thanks.
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It's part of our overpunishment mentality we have. The kid is a kid, either you say that kids can't quite understand the concepts and repercussions of their actions and thus we separate them from adults, or you don't. But we see an awful crime like this and we want to punish. So anything we said about kids being kids and not quit understanding the concepts and repercussions of their actions goes right out the window. And now we say he had to know because we want to throw him in jail. It's better than trying to understand the circumstances that led to this point and try to correct underlying problems.

Fundamentally I agree with you, we prosecute children as minors and separately as we would adults because they are children. This case, likely, you have to try the 11 year old as a kid since he's a kid. Hopefully the kid could get the help he obviously needs.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Peter King said:
11 year old children should never be tried as an adult iMHO, if someone is too immature to drink before the age of 21, how on earth are they adult enough to understand the finality of the end of life? How are they adult enough to understand the concept of murder and the legal process.

Sure, he deserves some punishment but not as an adult IMO.
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I must be corrupted by European socialism PK, because I sometimes then to think just like you do !!

:)
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

KevinKohler said:
Parents should see some jail cell as well.


Sure, you could say that maybe these people had taught their kid to shoot...My dad taught me to shoot. I learned on a .22 rifle, best gun in the world, IMO. I think I was around that age, 10, 11, 12 maybe.

Ain't like I had the thing laying in my closet next to my pump action BB gun. Access was restricted. I don't care WHAT sort of backwater, back woods place to come from, you DON'T LET YOUR KIDS HAVE GUNS WITHOUT YOURSELF OR ANOTHER ADULT PRESENT.

If you can't realize that, you should not have procreated. Parents need to get some jail time for this.
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Well parents are ultimately responsible and to blame for all juvie crimes.

The crime by the parents is obviously neglect or incompetence.

Not sure how you punish those? Not sure what good it would do either.

Every person that you put into jail or prison needs to be supported -- food, water, clothing, shelter, and medical care -- by the state.

That's an expensive burden on the tax paying public just for the sake of retribution.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

CanadaJohn said:
In my view, the offender or offenders are the parents. Only a complete idiot or someone who doesn't give a **** because they're drunk or drugged up leaves an 11 year old with a loaded gun. The proper punishment, in my view, would have been if the 11 year old had shot his parents for the crappy way they raised him.

You'd have to prove to me that Tennessee has no laws or regulations regarding the safe storage and security of firearms. I don't believe for a minute that Tennessee condones loaded guns being left around the house with unsupervised 11 year olds having access to them. I refuse to believe that any jurisdiction is that bat**** crazy.
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Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence ? Gun Law Information Experts

Tennessee has no such strict minimum age. So the kid is the only offender here. Even if there were such a law, the parents would still only be guilty of negligent homicide, and the primary responsibility would rest with the one who did it.

Slyfox696 said:
Obviously it's not and that is WHY I'm arguing against the current state of the law.

It's like you don't even read to what you respond.

Because I haven't said there should only be two categories. I said the ridiculous double standard in this country where a child is always a minor, unless we want to punish him/her, is awful.

Please learn to read what I type before you respond. Thanks.
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Your entire argument is premised on the idea that all minors should be treated the same. You continually refuse to support this with argument.

Peter King said:
Really? So if you are 10 or 11 and always been told that death is not final by your reverend/preacher and that Jesus got up from the dead and went on living, why should a child think that death is final.
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This isn't about your dislike of Christianity.

Young children do have issues with the finality of life, 11 year old children may have a better understanding but that is not absolute. Also, children who have developmental issues may be 11 in years but not as developed as a 8 year old. We do not know any specifics of this case so to say without any exemptions that all 11 year old's understand the concept of the finality of life is a bit over simplistic.
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Yes, if an 11 year old is severely retarded they might not know that death is permanent. That has exactly nothing to do with anything, as there's no indication that this kid is retarded.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Ikari said:
Fundamentally I agree with you, we prosecute children as minors and separately as we would adults because they are children. This case, likely, you have to try the 11 year old as a kid since he's a kid. Hopefully the kid could get the help he obviously needs.
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Hopefully that help will include real prison time until he is 21 or more maybe more depending on his behavior while incarcerated. This is needed both to provide justice for the victim, but also to reduce the possibility of a poorly conceived (but not totally non-understandable) vengeance shooting.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Paleocon said:
Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence ? Gun Law Information Experts

Tennessee has no such strict minimum age. So the kid is the only offender here. Even if there were such a law, the parents would still only be guilty of negligent homicide, and the primary responsibility would rest with the one who did it.
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Does Tennessee have any laws about safe storage of firearms? Especially when there's children in the house? I can't be arsed to search it right now but if they don't they should and if they do the parents should be charged with the death.



Paleocon said:
Your entire argument is premised on the idea that all minors should be treated the same. You continually refuse to support this with argument.



This isn't about your dislike of Christianity.



Yes, if an 11 year old is severely retarded they might not know that death is permanent. That has exactly nothing to do with anything, as there's no indication that this kid is retarded.
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An 11 year old child can't be held to the same standard as an adult. If he gets caught shoplifting, does he get charged? Is he guilty of assault for pushing another boy down in the playground? For yelling threats? Here's one similar to this case- if he gets into his parents booze, would he be arrested for staggering down the sidewalk and locked up, maybe charged with public drunkenness? Of course not.
 
Re: A 11-year-old Tennessee boy is being held for killing an 8-year-old girl because

Grand Mal said:
Does Tennessee have any laws about safe storage of firearms? Especially when there's children in the house? I can't be arsed to search it right now but if they don't they should and if they do the parents should be charged with the death.
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I don't believe so. Heck, he may have been allowed by his parents to have that gun.



An 11 year old child can't be held to the same standard as an adult. If he gets caught shoplifting, does he get charged? Is he guilty of assault for pushing another boy down in the playground? For yelling threats? Here's one similar to this case- if he gets into his parents booze, would he be arrested for staggering down the sidewalk and locked up, maybe charged with public drunkenness? Of course not.
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Murder is substantially more serious than those other things. I knew a lot of 11 year olds when I was 11, and somehow they all managed not to murder anyone.
 
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